(Gen 2) Should Snorlax count as Uber in GSC?

[Jorgen]

That match doesn't really say anything about Snorlax being broken or not. Beating a team of 3 Snorlax with different sets, piloted by a predictable AI, says absolutely nothing about Snorlax's impact on the metagame. Plus, you knew EXACTLY what set each Snorlax had because of their nicknames. That's not going to be the case in a real match.

Btw, That's Mr. E's team, not Borat's.

[133tSneasel]

Yeah, but it could show how to beat Snorlax. Id have to battle a real person and see how well they handle. Sorry, it was just the example Borat gave, maybe I read it wrong. Could you give any ideas, on how I could make a better video?

[Borat]

Make a better video of what?

Also, that team? My team? Demeaning.

[MaxMilen]

Is it possible to beat Snorlax in a variety of ways? Of course. If it weren't, it probably would have been declared Uber already, and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Does that mean it's not broken? Not necessarily. Just because something can be countered effectively does not mean it's not worthy of a ban.

Now, as to the videos (which I watched)... I see a number of things that lower the effectiveness of the argument it's being used to make.

First, those Snorlax were AI-controlled, and the AI was making rather significant misplays.

Second, you could tell by looking which Snorlax was which. If all of them had simply been named "Snorlax", so that you didn't know which was out at a given time, it wouldn't have been so easy to counter them. Something that works well to counter a Drumlax might not work as well to counter a Curselax, and so on.

Third, the AI had no other Pokemon. Any competent team builder would make sure that they could take care of whatever Snorlax counters their opponent had. It's a lot harder, for example, to use a Zapdos to counter a Snorlax when your opponent doesn't have to keep Snorlax in against the Zapdos, and could instead bring in (for example) Steelix or Raikou. In the case of the video, switching would have done the AI little to no good anyway, simply because all it could switch to would be a different Snorlax.

[LightningLord2]

Anyways, "It is beatable" is not a valid argument for the pokemon to be not Uber. You can beat Ho-oh, Lugia and Mewtwo with non-Ubers as well, does that make them OU? No.

We had a similar thing with Salamence on this site; while it wasn't completely unbeatable, it was (almost) always guaranteed to take out a pokemon or doing major damage otherwise.

[Borat]

If move bans go through though, then that paves way for this next bit. Unban both recoverless Ho-oh and Celebi (Ho-oh/Celebi with Recover is still banned, Rest is fine). Ho-oh with Recover is kind of annoying, but without it, it's just an average 4 move sweeper (I guess you can make it sleep talk, but then it just becomes an average wall). Celebi with Recover is probably the most annoying thing to kill ever, but without it, it's not that bad at all. All the moves that 3hko now matter (Snorlax/Zapdos/Raikou/Skarmory/Tyranitar etc can actually kill it with unboosted attacks). It can't seed or bell if it's sleeping (assuming you go with Rest), and if it sleep talks, it's not really doing anything productive (think Granbull on roids).

[Toby]

Originally Posted by Fat Nitro.

I don't play RSE or DP, but I'd be pretty surprised if there's any poke of any generation as dominant as GSC lax.

RSE = subrev Linoone.

DP = Tobybro the return (people just don't predict Amnesia).

[Borat]

Real Wintermute trolls better than that. Step it up.

[Crystal_]

I don't really think Celebi is that bad for the metagame. I really miss a defensive oriented meta, despite never playing DP. I remember reading somewhere that Drumlax would be "the only legitimate form of offense" then, but it's interesting offense, and definitely better than the offense used in inferior teams that sometimes end up beating superior teams. Quoting you here, Borat: Good offense > Stalls > Bad offense > Good offense. And my limited experience tells me that with stalls I often lose to well built offensive teams used by players as good as me (or better).

Even then, I don't really think Celebi will be that great of a wall. In fact, I don't really think Drumlax will be the only offensive thing with a good chance to work. Marowak uses HPBug frequently even without Celebi, and Machamp usefulness isn't really lowered much if he had to use it as well. I can even see old standard SD, RS, EQ, Rest Wak of Turbodrum being useful as, with the correct para support, you can 2HKO that Celebi that comes as you SD, especially with Spikes; In addition, SlamST Wak would be a pretty good supporter as well I guess, for things like Drumlax. And you have these other drummers like Clefable, Zard and Quagsire. And things like Exeggutor, Gengar, Steelix etc would have a good chance of doing something productive if you want a offensive structure for the team I suppose.

Afterall, Celebi will usually be substituting one of the waters (probably the Celebi standard stall would be Celebi, Drumlax, Skarm, Raikou, T-tar/Rhydon/MissyD, water-type?) so the Exeggutor that faced Suicune could now be able to para Celebi, or the Machamp that saw Starmie could now be seeing Celebi, the Steelix that faced Cloyster is now able to paraslam / explode into Celebi etc. I think that even with Celebi, the meta will still turn into a more offesnive meta that it now may seem to be over time imo. And, if Celebi is seeding it's not baton passing (pursuiters).

Isn't Celebi a way to balance even more the gsc meta, Borat?

[The Crown]

Ubers = Mewtwo, Mew, Lugia, and Ho-Oh in GSC. Snorlax is far too vulnerable to be named an Uber.