In-Game Tier List Discussion

[Jaroda]

Originally Posted by Fat Colonel M

Not exactly. It still has poor availability beyond belief, but I guess I didn't realize you could catch one at Level 70.

Hm, might see it Neutral though. I mean, yeah, it's still pretty badass. Might just be better to keep it out of Post E4 if only because things get really hectic after it >_<;

Urgamoth is a stationary encounter at the bottom of the desert ruins and it is always lv. 70. It alone makes taking out Adeku far too easy as all his first pokemon can do is Bug Buzz, which you double resist. This makes it too easy to get +6 Butterfly Dance every time. He yields the biggest payoff for the least amount of work, that means he is at the top.

[Unholy]

It's available for the post-game part of the game only. That alone nullifies its chances of being anywhere near top tier. Unless you're talking about a post-game only tier list, in which case I agree.

[Afti]

We're talking about a hypothetical extension of this list to post-game.

Coming late is bad because you have to grind to let something catch up with your team. Coming late at level 70 with Butterfly Dance, Bug Buzz, and Heat Wave? No grinding needed; it comes ready out of the box.

[Phi]

I'm going to have to argue for Monmen and by extension Erufuun to be placed higher. You get him with Leech Seed and Stun Spore out of the box, and that's about 70% of what he needs to be doing. Priority Stun Spore makes it easy for an underleveled party to nearly always come out victorious, and as an ingame staller the combination of Stun Spore/Leech Seed/Giga Drain allows him to beat almost anything that both he hits and is hit by neutrally.
There are also a bunch of small facets about him that make him fairly useful ingame. Sure, the main rock type has always technically had sturdy, but it's only in BW that it acts as a focus sash. Leech Seed to break sturdy followed by mega/giga drain basically keeps him from being worn down.
He definitely has his flaws, especially in terms of both being frail and having nonexistant attacking power. But the ability to guarantee a paralysis on an opposing pokemon that might otherwise outspeed your whole team is inherently useful, making Erufuun at least the most usable general support pokemon.

[lethminite]

Originally Posted by Fat Phi

I'm going to have to argue for Monmen and by extension Erufuun to be placed higher. You get him with Leech Seed and Stun Spore out of the box, and that's about 70% of what he needs to be doing. Priority Stun Spore makes it easy for an underleveled party to nearly always come out victorious, and as an ingame staller the combination of Stun Spore/Leech Seed/Giga Drain allows him to beat almost anything that both he hits and is hit by neutrally.
There are also a bunch of small facets about him that make him fairly useful ingame. Sure, the main rock type has always technically had sturdy, but it's only in BW that it acts as a focus sash. Leech Seed to break sturdy followed by mega/giga drain basically keeps him from being worn down.
He definitely has his flaws, especially in terms of both being frail and having nonexistant attacking power. But the ability to guarantee a paralysis on an opposing pokemon that might otherwise outspeed your whole team is inherently useful, making Erufuun at least the most usable general support pokemon.

i think the reason he's not higher, is the same reason guys you get late arnt, time.

geting things late, or needing to set up, or wasteing 5-6 turns to kill something isnt actually good ingame.
really good for win rates, not so good for beating the game quickly.

you could lose, grind 5 more levels then come back and try the gym again with a good sweeper before you even got upto the leader with Erufuun (made up, but you get the point).


now i havnt tried him, so if he actually 2-3 shots things, you might be right. but stuff like waruibiru just start 1 shoting all over the other trainers face, and thats what its competeing with.

[Unholy]

Originally Posted by Fat Afti

Coming late is bad because you have to grind to let something catch up with your team. Coming late at level 70 with Butterfly Dance, Bug Buzz, and Heat Wave? No grinding needed; it comes ready out of the box.

It doesn't make sense that a Pokemon who doesn't need grinding but only contributes for post-game can be in the same tier as Pokemon who don't need grinding but contributed for the entire game, does it?

[Afti]

My understanding is that we're tiering based on what makes a playthrough easiest.

It's not about fairness at all. IT's about efficiency; the most efficient course of action is to catch and use Moth.

[Unholy]

Originally Posted by Fat Afti

My understanding is that we're tiering based on what makes a playthrough easiest.

Exactly. So if a current top tier Pokemon makes the entire game easy and Urugamosu makes post-game easy, then the current top tier Pokemon is twice as good as Urugamosu.

[Kudan]

Does this include Dream World pokemon you can download from DW or strictly pokemon you can only catch from in-game without the use of wifi? (Asking this because Victini used to be on the tiering list even though you need access to wifi to receive it.)
They just released a lvl 100 Arceus and I'm quite sure even people who have yet to complete the story mode can catch and use it the minute they have access to CGear. Since its OT would be yours, there won't be any problem with it disobeying you. Also, any pokeball thrown at pokemon in the high link forest is a 100% catch rate.
The event runs till 1st Jan 2011 though.

[Ondore]

Generally, event Pokemon are excluded from the in-game tier list (especially if they're time limited like Victini/Arceus).

[Crystic]

Originally Posted by Fat Unholy

This is false. You can most certainly access the doubles grass before the 7th gym. Just set the season to winter.

Huh, didn't know that. Now I feel like a fool. :(
But I guess that means he is just that much better.

Originally Posted by Fat Unholy

Exactly. So if a current top tier Pokemon makes the entire game easy and Urugamosu makes post-game easy, then the current top tier Pokemon is twice as good as Urugamosu.

I don't know about this. Even my overleveled team has had serious troubles post-game when everything is 60+.
The fact that moth OHKO's nearly everything whereas you starter pokemon will come up short should put in perspective that top-tier pokemon aren't as twice as good. You should also consider the fact that current top-tier pokemon might not be good at all post-game, they might only be good before beating the game; which is why if we make a post-game tierlist is should be seperate from this one.

[Colonel M]

I don't know about this. Even my overleveled team has had serious troubles post-game when everything is 60+.
The fact that moth OHKO's nearly everything whereas you starter pokemon will come up short should put in perspective that top-tier pokemon aren't as twice as good. You should also consider the fact that current top-tier pokemon might not be good at all post-game, they might only be good before beating the game; which is why if we make a post-game tierlist is should be seperate from this one.

The reason I was playing hypothetical was to see if anything major was going to be added, but I also forgot about all the other Pokemon.

Anyway, that isn't completely true. Half the reason that you probably made it all the way to the Elite 4 was because of your starter, so to speak. Post E4 doesn't have much traveling; it's all about grinding. Urgamoth may come for free at Level 70, and in most cases not need a single bit of training, but the amount of time that he helps your team is severely limited in general. This is much like Zekrom and Reshiram, who probably could be classified as "Mid" (if you're like smash and feel that late availability, but no huge requirements of being useful cancels part, if not all of it out), "Bottom" (extremely poor availability), or how I placed them. They're obviously far from Top Tier (and if you extended post-game, I doubt they'd climb much higher than Mid regardless), so what makes Urgamoth so special as well so to speak? Neutral is more or less implying that they aren't tiered because their position is rather awkward to even justify in the first place, but because they have some sort of contribution (or can), they're placed in a tier that is excluded from the rest of the tier list.

Anyway, I think I'm passing on Post Game. I thought there was more storyline like there was in FR/LG or HGSS, but I guess there isn't.

Genes

Yeah, guess we can tier them. Special notes for each of them.

Tornelos:
- Starts with Air Cutter and Extrasensory, and learns Air Slash at Level 43 and Crunch at 49
- Has... no real TM access. >_>; Pretty much Grass Knot.

Boroturosu:
- Starts with Shock Wave, learns Discharge at 43, Crunch at 49.
- Access to Volt Change and Grass Knot.

So they seem... about... even so to speak. Yeah, Low Tier seems fair for them. Anything to say?

[Sir Koopaman]

Hello everybody. I joined here yesterday at 6:46 PM CMT, and I've like to give out a good impression for I have been studying for about a year prior to joining this world-renowned website. In my opinion, evwen though I havn't played the game nor I don't know which version I'll be choosing, but Megacruco and Darumakka should be #1 and #2 respectively.
Pokabu is overated. It has abysimmal defense and just about as bad of speed.

[Afti]

Nothing to say on the runners.

Post-game has half the region to explore; the entire right side of it is limited to post-game play. Several dungeons, and some cities.

[Unholy]

There is no cue in the game that tells the player "congratulations, you beat post-game." We can define post-game to be arbitrarily large like battling every single trainer or small like just plowing through the Elite 4 again.

[lethminite]

Originally Posted by Fat Unholy

There is no cue in the game that tells the player "congratulations, you beat post-game." We can define post-game to be arbitrarily large like battling every single trainer or small like just plowing through the Elite 4 again.

id say beating the champion would count as the main game.
thus the moth still fits in, as he helps a tonn with the elite 4 when they are all lvl 60+.
but if you want to count the post game as pre national pokedex, then i guess he's off the list.

[Mario With Lasers]

Originally Posted by Fat Kudan

They just released a lvl 100 Arceus and I'm quite sure even people who have yet to complete the story mode can catch and use it the minute they have access to CGear. Since its OT would be yours, there won't be any problem with it disobeying you. Also, any pokeball thrown at pokemon in the high link forest is a 100% catch rate.
The event runs till 1st Jan 2011 though.

I hacked a Lv99 Kyurem to test its signature moves and the fucker didn't obey me. It had my ID/SID, so I believe Game Freak outwitted us once again and put the level restriction for every single pokémon you have.

[Stellar]

I think it would be smartest (and easiest) just to have the tier list apply to the game up until the credits first play. It gets way too complicated otherwise.

On a side note, I just hatched a shiny Adamant Crimgan. :)

...

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[Kudan]

Originally Posted by Fat Mario With Lasers

I hacked a Lv99 Kyurem to test its signature moves and the fucker didn't obey me. It had my ID/SID, so I believe Game Freak outwitted us once again and put the level restriction for every single pokémon you have.

Drats. But does that mean if you overlevel one of your mons the hard way, it won't obey you? o_O

[breh]

Originally Posted by Fat Kudan

Drats. But does that mean if you overlevel one of your mons the hard way, it won't obey you? o_O

No. Hacked pokemon never have obeyed (w/o badges) unless hacked specifically not to do so.

[Mario With Lasers]

...Yeah, I caught DW Arceus in my game with five badges and it didn't disobey me once in ten Judgments. Funny, I would hack pokémon in DPPt and they would always obey me... I had two badges, and that Kyurem only started always obeying me when I set it to lv20. Maybe they changed something, or I fucked something up.



But lol lv100 Arceus, that's ridiculous.

[0verl0rd14]

With Voltolos, you can teach him a STAB thunderbolt straight away from a tm, so he deserves some credit (or at least more than Tornelos)

[Kudan]

Originally Posted by Fat Breludicolo

No. Hacked pokemon never have obeyed (w/o badges) unless hacked specifically not to do so.

I thought that only applied to Mew and Deoxys having the need to have the obey flag checked when hacked. Guess it's either I'm wrong or GF made it so for all pokemon this gen.

Originally Posted by Fat Mario With Lasers

...Yeah, I caught DW Arceus in my game with five badges and it didn't disobey me once in ten Judgments. Funny, I would hack pokémon in DPPt and they would always obey me... I had two badges, and that Kyurem only started always obeying me when I set it to lv20. Maybe they changed something, or I fucked something up.



But lol lv100 Arceus, that's ridiculous.

A lvl 100 pre-national dex. Is GF that intent on having us ev train it the hard way that they'll rather have majority of their target audience (kids) waltzing their way through the entire game and ruining the fun?

[JSND]

Originally Posted by Fat Kitsunine

That's highly debatable. If you maximize use of the Lucky Egg and the awesome experience available by even wild pokemon it's rather easy to have Pokemon at those levels. Hell, my entire team of six were at least level 50 by Victory Road.

is it just me but did i realy overgrinded ?
In dragon spiral tower 1 st floor(the floor where we get to see the first earthshaking) exactly after beating 7th gym my trained poke is
Doryuzuu lv 60
Jalorda lv 52
Kurimugan lv 63
Kibago lv 54
Agabora lv 49
Gamageroge lv 45
Kenhoro lv 37

[Chieliee]

Originally Posted by Fat JSND

is it just me but did i realy overgrinded ?
In dragon spiral tower 1 st floor(the floor where we get to see the first earthshaking) exactly after beating 7th gym my trained poke is
Doryuzuu lv 60
Jalorda lv 52
Kurimugan lv 63
Kibago lv 54
Agabora lv 49
Gamageroge lv 45
Kenhoro lv 37

Yes, you are overgrinded, and your team is VERY WEAK TO ICE!!!! 3 pokes are weak to it and only one resists it

I recommend you not to use your Kurimugan and Doryuuzu(yes i know how amazing it is), to level your Jalorda, abagora and gamageroge. Are you using your Kenhoro just because of Fly or not?