Zoroark

[chatrath]

Using him with onono or another dragon could be nice, to potentially get rid of their counters.

[MeroMero]

Originally Posted by Fat jumpluff

Acid Bomb, Aerial Ace, Agility, Ankle Sweep, Attract, Back Out, Calm Mind, Captivate, Claw Sharpen, Complete Burn, Counter, Cut, Dark Pulse, Detect, Dig, Double Team, Embargo, Extrasensory, Facade, Faint Attack, Flamethower, Fling, Focus Blast, Frustration, Fury Swipes, Get Even, Giga Impact, Grass Knot, Hidden Power, Hyper Beam, Imprison, Leer, Memento, Nasty Plot, Night Burst, Night Slash, Payback, Protect, Psych Up, Punishment, Pursuit, Rain Dance, Rest, Return, Roar, Rock Smash, Scary Face, Scratch, Shadow Ball, Shadow Claw, Snatch, Substitute, Sucker Punch, Sunny Day, Swagger, Swords Dance, Taunt, Thief, Torment, Toxic, Troll, U-turn

My bad, actually it does learn Sucker Punch by breeding, not Shadow Claw (though it learns it by TM) .

[Farukon_o_miru]

But what does exactly Illusion? With that ability Zoroark can personate other Pokémons and attract their counters? Becouse that is the main strategical utility i think it might have.

[Omnipresent]

Zoroark definately will place mind games on opponents. The more we study the Gen V meta, the more we can utilize him as well, but even so, even if it is able to trick us, it can't take much damage even from a resisted attack, so I know that I won't let it mind rape me too much.

Hell, even if it takes a resisted attack, if the pokemon is not locked into a move, it can just hit it with another move accordingly, and knock it out.

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat Omnipresent

Zoroark definately will place mind games on opponents. The more we study the Gen V meta, the more we can utilize him as well, but even so, even if it is able to trick us, it can't take much damage even from a resisted attack, so I know that I won't let it mind rape me too much.

Hell, even if it takes a resisted attack, if the pokemon is not locked into a move, it can just hit it with another move accordingly, and knock it out.

Even if Illusion only allows it to cause the opponent to waste one turn on an ineffective move, it's enough.

[Omnipresent]

Lol it would be cool though, using this and ditto on the same team. Or sending ditto out on a Zoroark that took the image of something else. Would it take the image of Zo or the image Zo took?

:o

[Yogi Bear.]

Originally Posted by Fat Omnipresent

Lol it would be cool though, using this and ditto on the same team. Or sending ditto out on a Zoroark that took the image of something else. Would it take the image of Zo or the image Zo took?

:o

Ditto is sent out against an Illusioned Zoroark (say for this example Volbeat (first one that came to mind for some reason XD)).

Ditto will copy ZOROARK: meaning that it will get the Illusion ability and transform into the second pokemon in YOUR party.

So it's a Ditto pretending to be a Zoroark disguised as another pokemon fighting a Zoroark disguised as a Volbeat.


What happens when you lead with zoroark in a 2v2 or 3v3 ?

[Omnipresent]

Originally Posted by Fat Yogi Bear.

Ditto is sent out against an Illusioned Zoroark (say for this example Volbeat (first one that came to mind for some reason XD)).

Ditto will copy ZOROARK: meaning that it will get the Illusion ability and transform into the second pokemon in YOUR party.

So it's a Ditto pretending to be a Zoroark disguised as another pokemon fighting a Zoroark disguised as a Volbeat.


What happens when you lead with zoroark in a 2v2 or 3v3 ?

Ya I started thinking about it when I left the thread, hilarious shit.

Reminds me of tropic thunder lol: "I'm a dude disguised as a dude, pretending to be another dude!"

[mathioks]

zoroark actually takes over the HP of the pokemon it is fighting as well

[Glinki]

Originally Posted by Fat mathioks

zoroark actually takes over the HP of the pokemon it is fighting as well

Really? Hmmm, so much for a Shedninja fake out then.

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat mathioks

zoroark actually takes over the HP of the pokemon it is fighting as well

Wait, what?

Details and source, please.

[black_cotton]

just a small question how does entry hazards fare with it? i mean, the damage taken from let's say, stealth rock wouldn't show that the poke in front of you is not what it appears to be? this is something that the zoroark players needs to pay attention too, or it could be easy for a experienced opponent to see through the illusion...

[Thorhammer]

As long as the Pokemon it's disguising as is neutral to Rock, there shouldn't be a problem. Spikes and Toxic Spikes could also be a problem, but they aren't as common.

[Annhialator Zero]

Originally Posted by Fat Thorhammer

Wait, what?

Details and source, please.

I think it copies the appearance of it's HP? Like if you send in a 30% Zoroark that copies a 50% Gengar, your opponent sees it as 50% HP whereas it's actually 30%. This is just a theory but it's probably how it would work if it does do it that way (and if it doesn't that makes Zoroark a one trick pony as it's only really useful the first time you bring it in).

[Glinki]

Originally Posted by Fat Annhialator Zero

I think it copies the appearance of it's HP? Like if you send in a 30% Zoroark that copies a 50% Gengar, your opponent sees it as 50% HP whereas it's actually 30%. This is just a theory but it's probably how it would work if it does do it that way (and if it doesn't that makes Zoroark a one trick pony as it's only really useful the first time you bring it in).

Ya I hope so, They might suspect something when you bring in a 50% shedninja.

I think this will be a very cool pokemon to use mainly because you will really have think about it and play to your disguise. Only use moves which you know your copy has in till the right moment. Fake choice items which are common on the copy, that sort of thing.

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat Annhialator Zero

I think it copies the appearance of it's HP? Like if you send in a 30% Zoroark that copies a 50% Gengar, your opponent sees it as 50% HP whereas it's actually 30%. This is just a theory but it's probably how it would work if it does do it that way (and if it doesn't that makes Zoroark a one trick pony as it's only really useful the first time you bring it in).

It's possible, but needs verification.

[NDenizen]

Originally Posted by Fat Glinki

Ya I hope so, They might suspect something when you bring in a 50% shedninja.

I think this will be a very cool pokemon to use mainly because you will really have think about it and play to your disguise. Only use moves which you know your copy has in till the right moment. Fake choice items which are common on the copy, that sort of thing.

Problem with "similar moves" is you can't just copy the movesets, you have to be copying elements of their most-used movesets, or relying on vague moves like Hidden Power or universally-learnt moves to keep your disguise. Pokemon that favour Substitutes are examples of good disguises as the sheer nature of a sub gives you the means to keep your disguise longer.
I get the feeling that whilst Zoruark is useful in its wide range of uses, the trends of its disguises will eventually narrow down to a select few which match up with Zoro's moves and type advantages. The interesting thing about that is it will take a while for those trends to form, and creative new trends always have the potential to pop up.

I love the idea of Ditto as a lead, though. You become Zoruark...but completely different. Meaning sticking Focus Blast on your Zoruark might not be the best idea.

[giggity69]

Lets keep in mind that illusion (While kind of cool) does give up information on the rest of your team, so if you send it out midgame, it could end up ruining the surprise of that secret sweeper you have been keeping in reserve. Although on the same note, it could also let you scout your opponents reaction to said sweeper, but I am just skeptical.

[Pratty]

The only thing about Illusion is...doesn't it keep Zoroark's same typing and everything?

So, as long as they're out, you can't copy a pokemon not neutral to SR, because it'll do different damage, a flying pokemon while Spikes or Toxic Spikes are out, etc.

And if a move would have a different effectiveness, they'd notice that too...

It doesn't seem that good for mind games.

[Anachronism]

Assuming the ability copies the second poke in the party, this has the potential to be used in ways that make it better than simply the stats and movepool suggest. With Infernape and the like, the opponent generally knows what it does and can go to something that will counter it fairly effectively. However, if the Zoroark user picks a good illusion partner, the opponent will often find themselves in a situation where Zoroark is at +2 and the opponent has brought in something entirely wrong into it. Even if they have figured out that it is Zoroark (the ideal illusion would be a fellow nasty plotter or swords dancer), they will probably still lose something due to the amount of momentum that has been lost.

For example, one can have an Infernape as their second. Zoroark can come in on something that is forced out by Infernape. The opponent brings in their Burunkeru or Victini or something to absorb fighting/fire attacks as Zoroark Nasty Plots. They still don't realize that they are against a Zoroark, but they are in a situation where either of those mons are outsped and KOd and they don't even realize it. This is only one narrow example, but situations like these will arise frequently enough with clever disguises. To make matters worse, your REAL Infernape is now in a position to sweep now that at least one counter has been eliminated.

[Santa_Clauz]

I'm a bit late here, but apparently Chou has not ever seen a properly equipped NPape. I used to run a team with a NPape as a clean up sweeper and it worked amazingly. NP/Fire Blast/Miss Blast/Vacuum Wave. It just had a mix of insane power and good speed/priority to blast it's way through everything in the tier with 5 exceptions, all of which were fairly easy to lure and defeat. In any case, NPape is really under appreciated, and I feel that NPZoroark will probably end up the same, though as has been fairly stated, Zoroark lacks the power of Nape's STAB moves and his epic STAB combo. Also, Zoroark is much more vulnerable to priority because it takes like... 100% or something, from Scizor's BP, whereas Nape takes less than 50, and 2HKOs with Vacuum Wave.

[thewetmop]

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

@Denchura

Gen 5 Tiers are not sorted/created so comparing it to Darkrai is not a horriable thing to do

Dont mean to turn this into a darkrai discussion, but unless dark void got nerfed in accuracy ( there were rumors, but the move changes thread here doesn't list it) I don't think they'll be in the same tier. DV nastyplot is incredibly good with his base speed and sp.atk. If he does end up OU, many other nastly plot users will likely move to UU or BL.

In response to the TC, i think you're correct to assume that its outclassed by darkrai if they end up in the same tier.

[Recoil]

According to a video I've just watched (and its discussion on another website), apparently Illusion does not always copy the second Pokémon in your party. In this case, it copied Suicune (who didn't even show the Pressure tag, giving the disguise away instantly), when the person who made this video said that Suicune was on his 6th slot.

I believe this guy requires more testing. If Illusion copies a random member of your party instead of a fixed one, this ability has the potential to be completely worthless depending on your team.

[EDIT] There's also a possibility that it always copies the last Pokémon in your party (which, usually, is the 6th one).

[EDIT2]

Originally Posted by Fat UncivilYoshi

Also lol @ other site.

Well, there was no need to state that the discussion of said video had took place on 4chan, so I omitted it.
If possible, could you test that Zoroark a bit, with screenshots of how your party is laid out? I know this all should possibly go into the research threads, so uh... post the results there, if you please.

[Boondocker]

Originally Posted by Fat Recoil

According to a video I've just watched (and its discussion on another website), apparently Illusion does not always copy the second Pokémon in your party. In this case, it copied Suicune (who didn't even show the Pressure tag, giving the disguise away instantly), when the person who made this video said that Suicune was on his 6th slot.

I believe this guy requires more testing. If Illusion copies a random member of your party instead of a fixed one, this ability has the potential to be completely worthless depending on your team.

[EDIT] There's also a possibility that it always copies the last Pokémon in your party (which, usually, is the 6th one).

I read in one of the old threads somewhere that he always copies the second alive poke on your team. Therefore is the second one is dead he copies the third, if the third is dead he copied the forth, and so on. So its certianly possible to have him transform into more then 1 poke on your team assuming illusion can be restored by switching out. I see zorack not just becoming a powerful poke, but a STRATEGY witch entire teams are built around. Also doesnt zorack get sucker punch? A set like this would work:

Zorack @ life orb/other
Evs/nature to be dertermined
~sd
~sucker punch
~new crappy fighting move
~flamethrower/taunt/grass knot/night slash/sub

I know its alot of slashes but what can you do.

[UncivilYoshi]

Originally Posted by Fat Boondocker

I read in one of the old threads somewhere that he always copies the second alive poke on your team. Therefore is the second one is dead he copies the third, if the third is dead he copied the forth, and so on. So its certianly possible to have him transform into more then 1 poke on your team assuming illusion can be restored by switching out. I see zorack not just becoming a powerful poke, but a STRATEGY witch entire teams are built around. Also doesnt zorack get sucker punch? A set like this would work:

Zorack @ life orb/other
Evs/nature to be dertermined
~sd
~sucker punch
~new crappy fighting move
~flamethrower/taunt/grass knot/night slash/sub

I know its alot of slashes but what can you do.

I can assure you he does NOT copy the 2nd member of your team, not always anyway.

Suicune was the 6th pokemon in my party, you can check and see at the start of the video my pokemon order.
Clearly Scizor was 2nd.

Also lol @ other site.