Salamence - Page 3

Miku · Sep 26th, 2010, 6:58:16 AM

So OC Salamence can have Dragon Dance but no Outrage? IMO Intimidate Mence seems slightly better since OC Mence lacks Outrage and Intimidate makes a lot of Salamence's switchins so much easier. (Think about switching in against Lucario or Scizor)

Granstafer · Sep 26th, 2010, 9:11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Miku

So OC Salamence can have Dragon Dance but no Outrage? IMO Intimidate Mence seems slightly better since OC Mence lacks Outrage and Intimidate makes a lot of Salamence's switchins so much easier. (Think about switching in against Lucario or Scizor)

but remember that if mence kills enough poke's, dragon claw will eventually be better than outrage...

Thorhammer · Sep 26th, 2010, 9:14:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Granstafer

but remember that if mence kills enough poke's, dragon claw will eventually be better than outrage...

But Salamence has to get those kills without Outrage. If he gets multiple kills in one switch-in, it probably means that there isn't much your opponent could do to stop him with or without the Attack boosts.

Miku · Sep 26th, 2010, 9:19:50 AM

Yeah killing with Dragon Claw is much more difficult than killing with Outrage due to the big power difference so getting those boosts might not be as easy. Of course there's Draco Meteor but then Salamence would have to drop out either Fire Blast or Earthquake (assuming you're using a DDMence) and both are somewhat necessary for those Steels. Overconfidence does seem to be the superior ability for a Choice'd Mence though.

Granstafer · Sep 26th, 2010, 9:25:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Miku

Yeah killing with Dragon Claw is much more difficult than killing with Outrage due to the big power difference so getting those boosts might not be as easy. Of course there's Draco Meteor but then Salamence would have to drop out either Fire Blast or Earthquake (assuming you're using a DDMence) and both are somewhat necessary for those Steels. Overconfidence does seem to be the superior ability for a Choice'd Mence though.

Draco meteor on a dd set? I don't find that at all effecient.

HavocInfinity · Sep 26th, 2010, 10:20:06 AM

Intimidate is a pretty obvious skill. If Salamence switches in and doesn't intimidate me, I'll know he has this Overconfidence skill, and from there I could easily choose to switch out my Pokemon into one that doesn't get ohkod... if I'm even worried about his attack boost. Without Intimidate, the Pokemon Salamence is up against may attack or switch out: same with Intimidate but on Physically-oriented opponents, we'll know for sure they'll do less damage to Salamence in the case they attack.

red12345 · Sep 26th, 2010, 10:38:04 AM

After 1 kill, he gets a 1.5x boost. 80 x 1.5 = 120...

Thorhammer · Sep 26th, 2010, 10:58:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat red12345

After 1 kill, he gets a 1.5x boost. 80 x 1.5 = 120...

That bit about "after one kill" should not be taken lightly. Especially not without the option of using Outrage.

And as I explained, it's not that simple. Chances are, Salamence already has +1 Attack from Dragon Dance, so it's +2 Dragon Claw vs. +1 Outrage. +2 Dragon Claw has 160 BP while +1 Outrage has 180 BP, so Outrage is still stronger.

red12345 · Sep 26th, 2010, 11:02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Thorhammer

That bit about "after one kill" should not be taken lightly. Especially not without the option of using Outrage.

And as I explained, it's not that simple. Chances are, Salamence already has +1 Attack from Dragon Dance, so it's +2 Dragon Claw vs. +1 Outrage. +2 Dragon Claw has 160 BP while +1 Outrage has 180 BP, so Outrage is still stronger.

True true. My bad. I guess the new Mence is just a different style of Pokemon. I now think Overconfidence/EarthquakeSpiral Mence is more like one of those Charge Beam users packing a whole lot more punch (since every move he gets essentially has a physical charge beam attached).

Shimrit As · Sep 26th, 2010, 11:07:56 AM

Okay with every DD the difference between Outrage and Dragon Claw grows. But considering that Outrage will cause Confusion (even more deadly with Atk boosts), locks you in and leaves you vulnerable to Steel-types, Dragon Claw is still a good option. A loss of 20 BP after one DD isn't that great to be honest. Yeah this is going back to the Outrage vs. Dragon Claw debate which has existed for years but in this case where it's one or the other I think DD + Overconfidence + Dragon Claw would still work well.

UltraStorm · Sep 26th, 2010, 11:13:46 AM

If you kill something with Salamence, chances are that they will send out something that can revenge kill it or at least force it out, which usually means being faster or having strong enough priority. This will stop the Overconfidence sweep cold. If they don't send out something like that, it's likely they have nothing left that can stop Salamence regardless of the boost of Overconfidence.

The fact that you can't get Outrage with Overconfidence seals its fate because Outrage is one of Salamence's main tools for scoring kills. That being said, Outrage would still be problematic with Overconfidence because of the confusion.

In general, it would be a different matter if Overconfidence boosted speed since scoring kills usually means having enough raw attacking power already. The ideal situation for Overconfidence would probably be catching something on a mispredicted switch for a free KO.

red12345 · Sep 26th, 2010, 11:18:34 AM

I can see perhaps a Bulky Substitute set. While it does not get the intimidate attack drop, it does still have some form of natural bulk and decent defensive typing. The Overconfidence Mence may be a late game sweeper rather than an early/mid game Poke-plow.

Thorhammer · Sep 26th, 2010, 11:22:40 AM

Much of the bulk comes from having Indimidate to weaken physically attacking Pokemon it switches into.

Shimrit As · Sep 26th, 2010, 11:33:52 AM

^huh Intimidate does not weaken switch-ins. Guessing it's a typo.

But if you're going bulky then Intimidate is clearly a better option. The DD + Roost set that has existed for years worked because Salamence could set-up on stuff like Gyarados and Lucario.

Thorhammer · Sep 26th, 2010, 11:36:24 AM

Yeah, that's what I meant. It gives Salamence a much easier switch-in by weakening the physical power of the Pokemon it switches into.

red12345 · Sep 26th, 2010, 11:42:28 AM

I don't think it is as bad as people say it is. Overconfidence Mence pales in comparison but is still very viable in the OU. It is slightly situational but still a legitimate threat.

Thorhammer · Sep 26th, 2010, 11:47:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat red12345

I don't think it is as bad as people say it is. Overconfidence Mence pales in comparison but is still very viable in the OU. It is slightly situational but still a legitimate threat.

It's not so much bad as just... not really ever worth using.

Bombkirby · Sep 26th, 2010, 11:55:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Thorhammer

Source? From what I've heard, Dream World abilities can be inherited through breeding, which makes that unlikely.

I'm starting to think breeding dream world pokemon can provide you with a CHANCE of being born with the DW ability. That would explain all the conflicting reports.

-Manaphy-- · Sep 26th, 2010, 12:00:12 PM

So, Intimidate Mence with Outrage is stonger than Overconfidence mence with DClaw?

Thorhammer · Sep 26th, 2010, 12:01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Bombkirby

I'm starting to think breeding dream world pokemon can provide you with a CHANCE of being born with the DW ability. That would explain all the conflicting reports.

This has already been confirmed.

Aqueos · Sep 26th, 2010, 12:06:35 PM

Its useful, but salamence won't be enjoying the loss of outrage or intimidate. It'll smash things that you don't attack with d-claw, but getting the ko off on something bulky like a swampert won't be easy with d-claw.

-Manaphy-- · Sep 26th, 2010, 12:11:47 PM

Overconfidence could be useful on MixMence, since the attack boost is really nice.

Aerrow · Sep 26th, 2010, 12:46:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat -Manaphy--

Overconfidence could be useful on MixMence, since the attack boost is really nice.

Agreeing with this.

Ginku · Sep 26th, 2010, 12:50:47 PM

But mixmence is about punching holes in the opponents team; you kill something and get forced out. attack boost wont help you vs an opposing chomp or w/e.

Shimrit As · Sep 26th, 2010, 12:55:48 PM

New MixMence can attempt to sweep late-game with Outrage - a situation in which Overconfidence can prove extremely useful? Intimidate is definitely a useful ability but Overconfidence works on pretty much every offensive set I feel.

Sep 26th, 2010, 11:07:56 AM	#60
Shimrit As Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 270 Singapore	Okay with every DD the difference between Outrage and Dragon Claw grows. But considering that Outrage will cause Confusion (even more deadly with Atk boosts), locks you in and leaves you vulnerable to Steel-types, Dragon Claw is still a good option. A loss of 20 BP after one DD isn't that great to be honest. Yeah this is going back to the Outrage vs. Dragon Claw debate which has existed for years but in this case where it's one or the other I think DD + Overconfidence + Dragon Claw would still work well. __________________ ...

Sep 26th, 2010, 11:22:40 AM	#63
Thorhammer Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,303 Pennsylvania	Much of the bulk comes from having Indimidate to weaken physically attacking Pokemon it switches into. Last edited by Thorhammer; Sep 26th, 2010 at 11:35:44 AM.

Sep 26th, 2010, 11:33:52 AM	#64
Shimrit As Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 270 Singapore	^huh Intimidate does not weaken switch-ins. Guessing it's a typo. But if you're going bulky then Intimidate is clearly a better option. The DD + Roost set that has existed for years worked because Salamence could set-up on stuff like Gyarados and Lucario. __________________ ...

Sep 26th, 2010, 12:06:35 PM	#71
Aqueos Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 747 Slaving away for VGC	Its useful, but salamence won't be enjoying the loss of outrage or intimidate. It'll smash things that you don't attack with d-claw, but getting the ko off on something bulky like a swampert won't be easy with d-claw. __________________ My Black FC:4040 6014 4141 My Trade Thread Aqua Falls If I cmt in your thread respond in mine.

Sep 26th, 2010, 12:55:48 PM	#75
Shimrit As Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 270 Singapore	New MixMence can attempt to sweep late-game with Outrage - a situation in which Overconfidence can prove extremely useful? Intimidate is definitely a useful ability but Overconfidence works on pretty much every offensive set I feel. __________________ ...

Sep 26th, 2010, 6:58:16 AM	#51
Miku Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 71 Finland	So OC Salamence can have Dragon Dance but no Outrage? IMO Intimidate Mence seems slightly better since OC Mence lacks Outrage and Intimidate makes a lot of Salamence's switchins so much easier. (Think about switching in against Lucario or Scizor)

Sep 26th, 2010, 9:19:50 AM	#54
Miku Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 71 Finland	Yeah killing with Dragon Claw is much more difficult than killing with Outrage due to the big power difference so getting those boosts might not be as easy. Of course there's Draco Meteor but then Salamence would have to drop out either Fire Blast or Earthquake (assuming you're using a DDMence) and both are somewhat necessary for those Steels. Overconfidence does seem to be the superior ability for a Choice'd Mence though.

Sep 26th, 2010, 10:20:06 AM	#56
HavocInfinity Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 24 Malverne, NY	Intimidate is a pretty obvious skill. If Salamence switches in and doesn't intimidate me, I'll know he has this Overconfidence skill, and from there I could easily choose to switch out my Pokemon into one that doesn't get ohkod... if I'm even worried about his attack boost. Without Intimidate, the Pokemon Salamence is up against may attack or switch out: same with Intimidate but on Physically-oriented opponents, we'll know for sure they'll do less damage to Salamence in the case they attack.

Sep 26th, 2010, 10:38:04 AM	#57
red12345 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 166	After 1 kill, he gets a 1.5x boost. 80 x 1.5 = 120...

Sep 26th, 2010, 11:13:46 AM	#61
UltraStorm Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 21	If you kill something with Salamence, chances are that they will send out something that can revenge kill it or at least force it out, which usually means being faster or having strong enough priority. This will stop the Overconfidence sweep cold. If they don't send out something like that, it's likely they have nothing left that can stop Salamence regardless of the boost of Overconfidence. The fact that you can't get Outrage with Overconfidence seals its fate because Outrage is one of Salamence's main tools for scoring kills. That being said, Outrage would still be problematic with Overconfidence because of the confusion. In general, it would be a different matter if Overconfidence boosted speed since scoring kills usually means having enough raw attacking power already. The ideal situation for Overconfidence would probably be catching something on a mispredicted switch for a free KO.

Sep 26th, 2010, 11:18:34 AM	#62
red12345 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 166	I can see perhaps a Bulky Substitute set. While it does not get the intimidate attack drop, it does still have some form of natural bulk and decent defensive typing. The Overconfidence Mence may be a late game sweeper rather than an early/mid game Poke-plow.

Sep 26th, 2010, 11:36:24 AM	#65
Thorhammer Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,303 Pennsylvania	Yeah, that's what I meant. It gives Salamence a much easier switch-in by weakening the physical power of the Pokemon it switches into.

Sep 26th, 2010, 11:42:28 AM	#66
red12345 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 166	I don't think it is as bad as people say it is. Overconfidence Mence pales in comparison but is still very viable in the OU. It is slightly situational but still a legitimate threat.

Sep 26th, 2010, 12:00:12 PM	#69
-Manaphy-- Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 349 Orange County, New York	So, Intimidate Mence with Outrage is stonger than Overconfidence mence with DClaw?

Sep 26th, 2010, 12:11:47 PM	#72
-Manaphy-- Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 349 Orange County, New York	Overconfidence could be useful on MixMence, since the attack boost is really nice.

Sep 26th, 2010, 12:50:47 PM	#74
Ginku my Angel's on Angel dust Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 572	But mixmence is about punching holes in the opponents team; you kill something and get forced out. attack boost wont help you vs an opposing chomp or w/e.