Lucario

[TheMantyke]

Originally Posted by Fat EndlessSKy

To hell with it!

Lucario should be suicidal. All out no chains. It dies quickly any how.

You're using very broad terms, care to be a bit more specific? Suicidal can imply several different strategies.

If you just meant to play lucario early to mid game to try to dent the opponent, that isn't the best idea considering their Lucario check will probably still be alive. Lucario is a fearsome sweeper when its counters are gone and preserving it for a late game sweep isn't too difficult. Using it recklessly and having it die early doesn't often pay off.

[Cooky]

Originally Posted by Fat EndlessSKy

To hell with it!

Lucario should be suicidal. All out no chains. It dies quickly any how.

yolo

[EndlessSKy]

Originally Posted by Fat TheMantyke

You're using very broad terms, care to be a bit more specific? Suicidal can imply several different strategies.

If you just meant to play lucario early to mid game to try to dent the opponent, that isn't the best idea considering their Lucario check will probably still be alive. Lucario is a fearsome sweeper when its counters are gone and preserving it for a late game sweep isn't too difficult. Using it recklessly and having it die early doesn't often pay off.

Well I was referring to GracefulChaos's idea of a suicidal lead, but without a boosting move and Adamant nature it's be able to hit its counters hard; bar a few exceptions. In my taste I'd rather let it kill 2-3 pokes early game. Which I've tested the set and it does usually accomplish that due to surprise factor.

[askjeevs]

I've been using a double dance Lucario to a mild degree of success...

Lucario @ Air Balloon
Adamant (+Atk, -SpA)
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
- Agility
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Crunch

Similar to Terrakion's double dance set, but effective nevertheless.

[tehy]

So basically every double dance lucario ever, except it can't beat gliscor even with a balloon and lacks power like crazy, which means that in all likelihood latios crushes it even after switching in on an agility, and so on and so forth.

[LucaroarkZ]

There's basically no reason to use a Double Dance Lucario over Terrakion. Terrakion is stronger and has two STAB attacks that work well together. ExtremeSpeed is really the only reason you should be using Lucario over Terrakion, so I don't know why you'd waste that.

[dragonuser]

A +2 Extremespeed is able to make up for Lucarios "lack of speed". Things Espeed doesn't hit hard like Terrakion, Tyranitar, and Gengar can all be beaten by Bullet Punch. While you sacrifice coverage to hit those things, you sacrifice more power and coverage to use a double dance Lucario. IMO Lucario has to much of a 4 move syndrome to be able to successfully use a double dance set.

[skaybestrogue]

Do you people usually run Jolly on your Lucario?
I am using the double Priority set:

Lucario @ Life Orb / Jolly
252 Atk 4 Def 252 Spe

Bullet Punch / Extremespeed
Close Combat / Swords Dance

it is amazing when Jellicent and Gliscor are out of the way since it manages to OHKO Terrakion after SD. I just feel like I'm lacking lots of instant power when going Jolly and I don't have a free turn to grab the boost for guaranteeing my Late-Game-Sweep so my question is: What significant threats do you not outspeed when going Adamant? The only thing I can think of so far are Max Speed Heatran and Max Speed Scizor which are both not very common.

[Scarfwynaut]

right from smogon's own speed tiers

306 / Lucario, Roserade* / 90 / +Spe / 252 / 0
300 / Zoroark / 105 / Neutral / 216 / 0
299 / Salamence, Jirachi, Volcarona* / 100 / Neutral / 252 / 0
298 / Rotom-A / 86 / +Spe / 252 / 0
295 / Nidoking, Suicune / 85 / +Spe / 252 / 0
295 / Hydreigon / 98 / Neutral / 252 / 0
289 / Darmanitan, Electivire, Gliscor / 95 / Neutral / 252 / 0
285 / Haxorus / 97 / Neutral / 220 / 0
284 / Venusaur*, Mamoswine, Dragonite / 80 / +Spe / 252 / 0
280 / Kyurem, Electivire / 95 / Neutral / 216 / 0
280 / Togekiss / 80 / +Spe / 236 / 0
280 / Hydreigon / 98 / Neutral / 192 / 0
279 / Lucario / 90 / Neutral / 252 / 0

Ones bolded for emphasis that you actually might run into.

[EndlessSKy]

Originally Posted by Fat skaybestrogue

Do you people usually run Jolly on your Lucario?
I am using the double Priority set:

Lucario @ Life Orb / Jolly
252 Atk 4 Def 252 Spe

Bullet Punch / Extremespeed
Close Combat / Swords Dance

it is amazing when Jellicent and Gliscor are out of the way since it manages to OHKO Terrakion after SD. I just feel like I'm lacking lots of instant power when going Jolly and I don't have a free turn to grab the boost for guaranteeing my Late-Game-Sweep so my question is: What significant threats do you not outspeed when going Adamant? The only thing I can think of so far are Max Speed Heatran and Max Speed Scizor which are both not very common.

Theres no immediate reason to run Jolly if your using double Priority. Kinda redundant in my view. Just manage the rest of your team to Outspeed it's threats and Adamant +2 can clean up nicely with double priority.

[skaybestrogue]

right from smogon's own speed tiers

306 / Lucario, Roserade* / 90 / +Spe / 252 / 0
300 / Zoroark / 105 / Neutral / 216 / 0
299 / Salamence, Jirachi, Volcarona* / 100 / Neutral / 252 / 0
298 / Rotom-A / 86 / +Spe / 252 / 0
295 / Nidoking, Suicune / 85 / +Spe / 252 / 0
295 / Hydreigon / 98 / Neutral / 252 / 0
289 / Darmanitan, Electivire, Gliscor / 95 / Neutral / 252 / 0
285 / Haxorus / 97 / Neutral / 220 / 0
284 / Venusaur*, Mamoswine, Dragonite / 80 / +Spe / 252 / 0
280 / Kyurem, Electivire / 95 / Neutral / 216 / 0
280 / Togekiss / 80 / +Spe / 236 / 0
280 / Hydreigon / 98 / Neutral / 192 / 0
279 / Lucario / 90 / Neutral / 252 / 0

Ones bolded for emphasis that you actually might run into.

Thanks a lot for this list, now I'm 100% sure I'll go Adamant seeing as the only troublesome things that arent killed by a +2 ExtremeSpeed but are killed by Close Combat are Haxorus and probably Hydreigon (since everything else is either OHKO'ed by ES, BP or not at all since I don't pack Ice Punch for coverage).

Theres no immediate reason to run Jolly if your using double Priority. Kinda redundant in my view. Just manage the rest of your team to Outspeed it's threats and Adamant +2 can clean up nicely with double priority.

Yup. That's what I was thinking.

[Draza]

The double dance set is interesting but i still think SD Luke is the bread and butter for lucario.

[SupaChinChin]

Originally Posted by Fat LucaroarkZ

Now, why exactly would I use a Lucario set that can "dent" Scizor when I can use one that can OHKO Scizor outright, like, I dunno, Swords Dance? A +2 LO ExtremeSpeed also already does plenty of damage to Landorus, and as I said, you shouldn't be setting up with Lucario too early in the game.

SD Lucario can beat Gliscor by running Ice Punch. Job done. You have six Pokemon on your team, not one, if you need to cover something with a move you're not using on Lucario, cover it with a different Pokemon.

Also, I don't think you understand how bad Expert Belt is on most Pokemon competitively. Lucario isn't an exception. Lucario's also quite weak without Life Orb. It absolutely needs the Life Orb boost. That's why I said Substitute doesn't have any merit. Also, don't forget to consider that Substitute cuts 25% off of Lucario's health, and if the opponent realizes you have Substitute, they'll just keep on breaking them. Lucario doesn't have good defenses, so its Substitutes will break against any competent player. If you just predict a switch (like you normally should be), you get a good shot at eliminating a troubling Pokemon and you only lose 10% to Life Orb recoil. Which do you choose?

Fantastic job at ignoring everything I said. The point of this set is NOT to sweep, but to eliminate Lucario's usual counters and checks. Whats a Landorus going to do to it behind a Sub? Whats a Gliscor going to do? Whats *anything* that can take on Lucario going to do when its behind a substitute?

If you run Ice Punch, you can't handle Terrakion, Gengar, or Jellicent. Run Bullet Punch and you cant handle Gliscor or Jellicent. This has nothing to do with prediction. Nothing in the slightest. As such, nothing you said even applies to my argument. Nothing even comes close. As for the Expert Belt, that is in place so that Lucario can take out the things it needs to, being Jellicent, Gliscor, etc.

Look, I understand it may not be the most effective set in the world. But the problem is, you guys are throwing it aside without a thought or any testing. Its definitely not useless, and it does a good job at eliminating Pokemon that other guys like Terrakion appreciate gone. Theres nothing wrong with being creative, and in my experience, using an unorthodox set like this is more often than not a bonus despite the apparent drawbacks.

[LucaroarkZ]

Well, if you think it's got merit, how about you go try to push it through OU QC? I'm willing to bet that the OU QC team will reject it.

[ginganinja]

Well, if you think it's got merit, how about you go try to push it through OU QC? I'm willing to bet that the OU QC team will reject it.

Dude there is no reason for comments like that. I am not actually defending his set but rude comments like this are not actually going to help discussion in this thread and just lead to pointless flame wars.

Regardless, SupaChinChin, I think the point everyone is attempting to make is that your sets purpose is done in a similar way, that SD and NP sets do. For example, your sets still have 3 attacks, just like the SD and NP sets, so there is always something that can beat you. You argue that your sets beats counters for Lucario, however, SD does a similar thing. For example, you do not need Substitute to beat Gliscor if you have a Swords Dance Boost, Landorus also gets owned by a +2 ES. I am aware that you are not trying to sweep, but the irony is that by taking away Lucarios boosting move, as well as Life Orb which it kinda needs to get some KOs, you are actually making it MORE difficult for Lucario to beat its counters.

Heck, if I see a Lucario use Substitute, I can breath a sigh of relief since I know that it is a) not packing a boosting move (or if it is its lacking a coverage attack) and b) lacking a lot of power behind its attacks. It means that I can go to Tentacruel, set up 2 layers of Toxic Spikes, and then beat you with Scald, it means I can bring in Gliscor, and then double switch out or Protect to scout what moves you are running. Heck, it means that I can basically send in CM Latias and boost up since you pack little overall threat. It basically means that a smart player can figure out that Lucario posts little overall threat, and can then use that to his advantage.

I am not calling your set shit, I am just saying that its uses are limited (mainly as preventing revenge kills) compared with Swords Dance which is tough to revenge with its +2 ES. Ergo (and this is the main point here) Swords Dance can break apart many of those "checks" if it has the right coverage move. Since your set has the same coverage moves as the SD set, you do not really "gain" anything. Your set will still be walled by Jellicent if you run Ice Punch, Gliscor if you run Crunch, and Skarmory no matter what you run. In the long run, Swords Dance is prolly better for what you are attempting to do since after that boost, it has the power to blast through those physical walls, meaning that even if it fails in its sweep, Terrakion can switch in, Rock Polish, and clean up.

[SupaChinChin]

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Dude there is no reason for comments like that. I am not actually defending his set but rude comments like this are not actually going to help discussion in this thread and just lead to pointless flame wars.

Regardless, SupaChinChin, I think the point everyone is attempting to make is that your sets purpose is done in a similar way, that SD and NP sets do. For example, your sets still have 3 attacks, just like the SD and NP sets, so there is always something that can beat you. You argue that your sets beats counters for Lucario, however, SD does a similar thing. For example, you do not need Substitute to beat Gliscor if you have a Swords Dance Boost, Landorus also gets owned by a +2 ES. I am aware that you are not trying to sweep, but the irony is that by taking away Lucarios boosting move, as well as Life Orb which it kinda needs to get some KOs, you are actually making it MORE difficult for Lucario to beat its counters.

Heck, if I see a Lucario use Substitute, I can breath a sigh of relief since I know that it is a) not packing a boosting move (or if it is its lacking a coverage attack) and b) lacking a lot of power behind its attacks. It means that I can go to Tentacruel, set up 2 layers of Toxic Spikes, and then beat you with Scald, it means I can bring in Gliscor, and then double switch out or Protect to scout what moves you are running. Heck, it means that I can basically send in CM Latias and boost up since you pack little overall threat. It basically means that a smart player can figure out that Lucario posts little overall threat, and can then use that to his advantage.

I am not calling your set shit, I am just saying that its uses are limited (mainly as preventing revenge kills) compared with Swords Dance which is tough to revenge with its +2 ES. Ergo (and this is the main point here) Swords Dance can break apart many of those "checks" if it has the right coverage move. Since your set has the same coverage moves as the SD set, you do not really "gain" anything. Your set will still be walled by Jellicent if you run Ice Punch, Gliscor if you run Crunch, and Skarmory no matter what you run. In the long run, Swords Dance is prolly better for what you are attempting to do since after that boost, it has the power to blast through those physical walls, meaning that even if it fails in its sweep, Terrakion can switch in, Rock Polish, and clean up.

I don't even use the set, I don't even use Lucario all that much. I was just trying to point out to certain people on this thread who threw away the idea instantly and angrily that being creative is a good thing, and is to be cultivated.

In any case, the set I recommended can't be walled by any of those Pokemon because it has Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse, AND Hidden Power Ice, and it DOESNT rely on priority to deal damage. The value of the set doesn't come from his ability to sweep, but due to the fact that not many things can take out his substitute without taking massive damage. Skarmory also can't wall the special set, which is the one I recommended more in the first place. SD Lucario doesnt have the coverage OR the speed necessary to do these things. Substitute Lucario eliminates the need to be afraid of many of Lucario's checks. It only really fears a few who can handle it, being Specially Defensive Jirachi, Tentacruel, and maybe a few others.

[Saitsuofleaves]

My position hasn't changed. Creativity is a good thing, but proof of said creativity's worth should at least be provided.

A log, warstory, SOMETHING to show the effectiveness of what you have suggested, and don't say that we should be the ones finding out for ourselves. You're the one who suggests the set, you should provide proof if it's validity.

If it's worth acknowledgement, then everyone should respect that and it will be noted how you added a new dimension to Lucario's place in the meta.

Personally I'd love to see a new Lucario set succeed as it's one of my favorite Pokes and it'd be great to see new ways for it to do well.

[ginganinja]

Originally Posted by Fat SupaChinChin

I don't even use the set, I don't even use Lucario all that much. I was just trying to point out to certain people on this thread who threw away the idea instantly and angrily that being creative is a good thing, and is to be cultivated.

In any case, the set I recommended can't be walled by any of those Pokemon because it has Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse, AND Hidden Power Ice, and it DOESNT rely on priority to deal damage. The value of the set doesn't come from his ability to sweep, but due to the fact that not many things can take out his substitute without taking massive damage. Skarmory also can't wall the special set, which is the one I recommended more in the first place. SD Lucario doesnt have the coverage OR the speed necessary to do these things. Substitute Lucario eliminates the need to be afraid of many of Lucario's checks. It only really fears a few who can handle it, being Specially Defensive Jirachi, Tentacruel, and maybe a few others.

I was responding to a post that you responded to which concerned itself with the PHYSICAL sub set. Tbh tho, the point still stands, just swap "SD" in my post for "NP" and you get the same thing, the boosting sets do a better job at breaking shit down compared with Sub Lucario, which is much less threatening, and easy to play around (Sub NP though, sounds interesting with Dark + Fight coverage). Quoting that part of my post again but with SD swapped with NP so that you get my point rather than nitpicking the sets.

I am not calling your set shit, I am just saying that its uses are limited (mainly as preventing revenge kills) compared with Nasty Plot which is tough to revenge with its +2 Vaccum Wave. Ergo (and this is the main point here) Nasty Plot can break apart many of those "checks" if it has the right coverage move. Since your set has almost the same coverage moves as the NP set, you do not really "gain" anything.

Now excuse me while I go test out Sub NP Lucario

[Dr Ciel]

Ah, good old Lucario. One of my favourite Pokes from the 4th Generation of Pokemon (Gliscor and Roserade being the others). Well, Lucario's solid Attack+Special Attack combined with it's ample movepool of Physical and Special moves, I myself use Lucario as a Mixed Sweeper, and it is a very good one at that.

Now, prepare to meet in my opinion, one of, if not, THE BEST Lucario set out there.

...

---

Lucario @ Life Orb Lv. 100 -- Steadfast

Nature: Hasty - EVs: 28 Atk / 252 SAtk / 228 Spd
-Close Combat
-Dark Pulse
-Vacuum Wave
-Work Up

If you haven't already used this Lucario set already, use it right now. Close Combat is for STAB, Dark Pulse is for coverage, Vacuum Wave is for more STAB and obligatory priority. Work Up is the clear choice for a mixed sweeper.

[Saitsuofleaves]

Question...why should this set be used when Lucario can maintain the same coverage and the same priority options in both his SD and NP sets? Not to mention said sets have the benefit of having better boosts to his attack stat of choice, full investment in either, AND full investment in Spe which is RIDICULOUSLY crucial to his success.

[Draza]

Originally Posted by Fat Dr Ciel

Lucario @ Life Orb Lv. 100 -- Steadfast

Nature: Hasty - EVs: 28 Atk / 252 SAtk / 228 Spd
-Close Combat
-Dark Pulse
-Vacuum Wave
-Work Up

If you haven't already used this Lucario set already, use it right now. Close Combat is for STAB, Dark Pulse is for coverage, Vacuum Wave is for more STAB and obligatory priority. Work Up is the clear choice for a mixed sweeper.

Looks like you just took a nasty plot set and added in close combat.

Seriously what benefit does this give to Lucario apart from hitting Blissey who is now irrelevant and Chansey who isnt really seen that much?.

[Saitsuofleaves]

It's not even worth it for Blissey when you take into account that a +2 Aura Sphere with + Nature does 76% minimum to Blissey, with a slight chance to OHKO with Stealth Rock.

[skaybestrogue]

Switch a justified Lucario into a beat up.. Please do it, just once..
That feel is so unbelievably great

[Dr Ciel]

Originally Posted by Fat skaybestrogue

Switch a justified Lucario into a beat up.. Please do it, just once..
That feel is so unbelievably great

Yes, yes and yes.

[Challenger]

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Landorus also gets owned by a +2 ES. .

I agree with everything else you said, but in my experience, Landorus needs to be weakened before Lucario can finish him in one hit with ES.

That said, if you want to eliminate Lucario's counters, you could just predict the switch and use ice punch instead of trying to sub or boost.

The swords dance set is still the best set, if you can eliminate some very specific counters to it you'll rarely have any issues.