B&W Research Thread - Page 104

**Stellar** · Jul 20th, 2011, 2:24:59 PM

I think he meant "does No Guard allow the user to hit a Pokémon through Substitute?" (similar to hitting Flying or Digging Pokémon)

Jaxx · Jul 20th, 2011, 2:31:47 PM

stellar:

Ahh I see the wording put me off. In this case yes a Substitute will still block an incoming attack even with No Guard.

Tortferngatr · Jul 20th, 2011, 2:35:04 PM

Actually, it was the former.

I misheard something on IRC and wanted confirmation.

MB Espeon · Jul 22nd, 2011, 5:25:15 PM

I know it says Shadow Tag doesn't prevent rotation, but just to be thorough, Arena Trap should probably be added to that statement.

Tested this one over at the Opelucid rotation battle house in Black.

CPU · Jul 25th, 2011, 12:38:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat veekun

The Gracidea must be used again to return to Sky Forme.

Does this mean that, in the rare event that a Skymin is frozen, reverts to Land Form, and thaws out, it will not return to Sky Form?

That'd be interesting, and as I don't have a Shaymin to test with, I'd like to know.

Phi · Jul 25th, 2011, 4:08:53 AM

If you baton pass an imposter ditto a sub, does it keep the sub and transform?

TM13IceBeam · Jul 27th, 2011, 8:20:36 AM

@CPU: I think you will need to use a Gracidea again for Shaymin.

@Phi: not really top priority right now since Imposter's unreleased, but I'd imagine that Ditto will transform anyway.

Jaxx · Jul 27th, 2011, 8:27:57 AM

This thread isn't about might or maybe.

I will test these later and update this post with the results.

EDIT:

Tested both.

#1 CPU:

Indeed after you are frozen and thawed out Shaymin will stay in its Land form.

#2 Phi:

Yes you will still transform via Imposter even when you are behind a sub.

Zyrac · Jul 27th, 2011, 5:40:08 PM

I'm looking for some clarification on how Friend Guard works. There is a frustrating lack of solid information on this. The OP here says it "reduces damage done to a teammate by 25%", but that's awfully vague. Does it reduce damage taken from allies, enemies or both? In a triple battle, does it only work on allies adjacent to the user?

black_cotton · Jul 28th, 2011, 3:10:14 PM

Past Generations Conversion couldn't select Curse because of the ??? type. The thing is in this Gen. Curse is an Ghost-type move. Can conversion select it right now?

Edit: No need anymore, I tested and Conversion really selected curse, making smeargle a ghost type.

poccil · Jul 28th, 2011, 5:24:26 PM

Zyrac:

My description for Friend Guard reads:

Effectiveness of attacks against allies of the bearer (except confusion damage) is multiplied by 3/4. (This effect is cumulative.)

Accordingly, Friend Guard affects attacks no matter which Pokemon caused the attack (otherwise it would have read, for example, "attacks by opposing Pokemon against allies of the bearer"; it doesn't affect confusion damage, though) and even if the Pokemon with Friend Guard and the ally are not adjacent (otherwise it would have read "attacks against adjacent allies of the bearer"). I've tested this Ability to make sure of this.

Zyrac · Jul 28th, 2011, 9:23:50 PM

Thank you, poccil. I will keep your site in mind from now on.

Peterko · Jul 30th, 2011, 9:19:18 AM

OK something weird just happened in my game:

I´m battling this Elite 4 fighting guy and his last Pokémon Conkeldurr just used Hammer Arm on my Rhyhorn, Rhyhorn magically (it has a much lower level and was at 50% HP) survived the hit with 1 HP left, but there was the animation as if it fainted.

Now the game asks me "Battle using which Pokémon?" and when I click the 1/179 HP Rhyhorn it says Rhyhorn IN BATTLE and clicking on Rhyhorn again I get a message "Rhyhorn is already in battle!"

Afterwards I clicked another Pokémon to send it out, but then the game froze on this screen...

I didn´t know where else to post it. Also I haven´t altered the game in any way, have not traded with anyone, etc. It´s probably nothing major, but maybe someone else has similar experience.

Jaxx · Jul 30th, 2011, 9:29:15 AM

I'm assuming this is the legit copy of the game and not a patched rom?

If so then I will look into this further.

TM13IceBeam · Jul 30th, 2011, 9:32:20 AM

What's with the 2 Metagrosses with the same nick and HP?

I haven't really been able to replicate this though. It might be something wrong with your game. :/

CPU · Jul 30th, 2011, 11:08:46 AM

Have you tried calculating the damage to see if it could have survived anyway?

But then again, that would be a 4th Gen Calculation, and I have an inkling that the formula's changed somewhat, since I had a foe's Boldore survive a hit with 1 HP left (not Sturdy, no activation message) when I don't think it would have otherwise. Unfortunately I can't find my notes on what happened at the moment.

melvni · Jul 30th, 2011, 11:16:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Peterko

OK something weird just happened in my game:

I´m battling this Elite 4 fighting guy and his last Pokémon Conkeldurr just used Hammer Arm on my Rhyhorn, Rhyhorn magically (it has a much lower level and was at 50% HP) survived the hit with 1 HP left, but there was the animation as if it fainted.

Now the game asks me "Battle using which Pokémon?" and when I click the 1/179 HP Rhyhorn it says Rhyhorn IN BATTLE and clicking on Rhyhorn again I get a message "Rhyhorn is already in battle!"

Afterwards I clicked another Pokémon to send it out, but then the game froze on this screen...

I didn´t know where else to post it. Also I haven´t altered the game in any way, have not traded with anyone, etc. It´s probably nothing major, but maybe someone else has similar experience.

Someone posted a thread where about this happening a few months ago (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103040) so you're definitely not alone. It doesn't seem anyone knows why this happens, but it appears the only solution is to turn off the game or (if possible) forfeit the battle.

Virizion · Jul 30th, 2011, 11:18:53 AM

That has happened before, it's similar to what the Battle Subway does when that one Fisherman guy sends out his fainted Vanilluxe/Starmie/Walrein, but I suppose when the same situation happens for the player, it just freezes the game.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean anything, it's just a rare glitch.

Edit: OH COME ON, MELVNI

TM13IceBeam · Jul 30th, 2011, 11:32:37 AM

it could possibly be a damage overflow or something since the linked thread has a random and probably low-levelled Cottonee involved.

As Conkeldurr has a ridiculously high Attack stat and the level difference is approx. 15(Rhyhorn is LV 58 if I saw that correctly and Marshal's Conkeldurr is 72 on the rematch), and the attack used was a SE Hammer Arm, I suppose that it could be possible that the game couldn't handle that much overkill. I dunno actually, just my 2 cents.

Deaga · Jul 30th, 2011, 11:53:54 AM

That doesn't seem right, though. There's ways to do much bigger overkill since previews gens (Kyogre using Surf on Geodude, anyone?) and they didn't overflow. BW has better technology, why would it?

The only overflow I've heard of in Pokémon is Marowak in GSC, which was understandable because it was on a GBC cartridge. But on a DS one? I think that's unlikely.

No idea of anything else it could be, however. :/

TM13IceBeam · Jul 30th, 2011, 12:03:26 PM

I'm not really so sure, but I was looking around and found that the reported cases involved a lot of damage being done(Hammer Arm on Rhyhorn, and Hi Jump Kick on Cottonee).

It's actually possible since in some hacks of B/W some trainers are hacked with LV 99 Pokemon and they give out lolz EXP, possibly an underflow or something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rdx5e7rcHrE scroll to around 3:25. When Flareon kills Volcarona he only gains 800 something EXP.

Since B/W has things like 3D engine and what not, you never know. :/

Jaxx · Jul 30th, 2011, 12:11:03 PM

I'm going to assume that a badged researcher would have only posted this if the game was legit and not a patched rom.

Of course the idea of a damage overflow is almost ridiculous. Since the upgrade to ds I have done some massive damage including V-creating a lv5 with my lv100 Victini with a choice band. I just simply think we are taking this the wrong route.

I will be testing this out to confirm the details however I don't think pulling at straws is the right answer.

Peterko · Jul 30th, 2011, 1:07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Jaxx

I'm assuming this is the legit copy of the game and not a patched rom?
If so then I will look into this further.

Lol of course not a rom, it´s a legit copy of the game.

@ TM13 I don´t hack, those 2 metagross are just normal in-game clones from emerald (emerald tower cloning) -> rsfrlge -> black, not cheats

the rhyhorn is a baby that I bred today, it was level 58 at that point, holding a lucky egg, conkeldurr is level 73

The turn it happened, I used revive on the second metagross (to explode later) and conkeldurr hammer armed rhyhorn (it was at 89 / 179 HP because it was revived)...

Maybe some games just glitch once in 450 hours or so and it´ll never happen again...

Jaxx · Aug 1st, 2011, 1:33:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat mien

Tentative Probably the list of moves that are not blocked by substitute
http://veekun.com/dex/moves/search?flag_mystery=yes

I have compiled three lists from the link quoted above which contains every move within the game. These three lists are in alphabetical order and are categorised into: Moves that are completely blocked by Substitute, moves that are unaffected by Substitute and moves that are partially blocked by Substitute. The third list will contain moves that cause the Substitute damage but at least one of their effects will be blocked. I felt the third list was necessary as being classed as "Blocked" may be misleading for some people.

Moves that are completely blocked by Substitute

Moves that are unaffected by Substitute

Moves that are partially blocked by Substitute

Shout out to Ayeeelin for helping me double check these lists.

***Antar**** · Aug 1st, 2011, 11:07:03 AM

I need some help confirming something rather unfortunate.

So I had a Wi-Fi battle that ended up pitting Jirachi against Scrafty.

Jirachi launches a Doom Desire after 1 Calm Mind.
Three turns later, Jirachi launches a second Doom Desire.
In those intervening three turns, Jirachi got off 1 additional CM, and Scrafty got up 3 Bulk Ups (which shouldn't matter).

I saved the battle, played back the game using an emulator, and managed to get a somewhat exact reading on how much each Doom Desire did.

The first did approximately 63%. The second did approximately 31%.

Using this damage calculator, I have managed to verify three things:

+1 DD against Max HP, Max (S)Def Scrafty does 55-65% (good)
+2 DD against Max HP, Max (S)Def Scrafty with no defensive boosts does 74-88% (a LONG WAY off from 31%)
+2 DD against Max HP, Max (S)Def Scrafty with the defense stat at +3 does... 29-35%

So I'm left with one of two possibilities: either Bulk Up raises SDef as well as Def, or Doom Desire hits on the physical side.

I can post an excerpt of the battle if that would help.

[Edit: Update. I just heard back from my opponent. He says he was running Careful, 252 HP, 248 SpD. If Doom Desire hits on the physical side, that means:

+1 DD against non-boosted Scrafty does 84-99%
+1 DD against +3 Scrafty does 34-40%
+2 DD against +3 Scrafty does 45-53%

What this seems to indicate is that Bulk Up is raising SpD, but I find that HIGHLY unlikely, as I'm sure people would have noticed it long before now. So I'm left with... what? Glitch in the game?]

[Edit 2: I have an answer. It is EXTREMELY strange.

First off, I screwed up the calcs (mis-entered the SpA as 252 rather than 4). So here are some calcs, based on the set my opponent gave me:

+1 DD against Scrafty does 44-52%
+2 DD against Scrafty does 59-70%
+0 DD against Scrafty does... 29-35%

This makes perfect sense if you realize the following: Doom Desire not only uses the current stats of the current defending pokemon when it hits... it uses the current stats of the current offensive pokemon as well. Because... here's the thing I failed to mention: Jirachi was KOed immediately before that second DD hit. So, I guess, to the game, a KOed pokemon is considered to be at +0. I've verified in some tests on my end (against a Slowking) that this theory is consistent--what matters is the stats ON BOTH SIDES at the time the attack hits, not the stats at the time the attack is launched, but I'm going to need to check whether Doom Desires can be *passed* (as in, use DD on Jirachi, switch to a poke with INSANE SpA... what will the game use to calculate the damage?).]

[Edit 3: Results of DD-passing are in, and they're rather disappointing. Doom Desire uses Jirachi's current SpA to calculate damage. So if Jirachi is out and at +6, that's awesome. But if you called Jirachi back or if Jirachi was KOed, Jirachi is considered to be at +0. Sigh. I think it's time to replace DD with Flash Cannon...]

Jul 20th, 2011, 2:31:47 PM	#2577
Jaxx Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 340 Work, work, work.	stellar: Ahh I see the wording put me off. In this case yes a Substitute will still block an incoming attack even with No Guard. __________________ キラリ☆星になる！

Jul 20th, 2011, 2:35:04 PM	#2578
Tortferngatr Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 2,545 United States of America	Actually, it was the former. I misheard something on IRC and wanted confirmation. __________________ Cookie's law of a forum: as a thread gets longer, the probability of it being derailed by a religion argument approaches 1 If only the max avatar filesize was 90K... \|CAPASB stuff: My CAPASB Team~My reffing profile \|

Jul 25th, 2011, 4:08:53 AM	#2581
Phi Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 152	If you baton pass an imposter ditto a sub, does it keep the sub and transform? __________________ Read the print in the mint.

Jul 27th, 2011, 8:20:36 AM	#2582
TM13IceBeam Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 3,247 stuck in the past, locked in the present, banned from the future	@CPU: I think you will need to use a Gracidea again for Shaymin. @Phi: not really top priority right now since Imposter's unreleased, but I'd imagine that Ditto will transform anyway. __________________ Start of turn 24 Natu used Grass Knot! It's super effective! The foe's Corsola lost 31% of its health! Riolu ftw Amazing Rotom-S is amazing KAKUNA i'm dead, don't bother contacting me

Jul 27th, 2011, 8:27:57 AM	#2583
Jaxx Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 340 Work, work, work.	This thread isn't about might or maybe. I will test these later and update this post with the results. EDIT: Tested both. #1 CPU: Indeed after you are frozen and thawed out Shaymin will stay in its Land form. #2 Phi: Yes you will still transform via Imposter even when you are behind a sub. __________________ キラリ☆星になる！ Last edited by Jaxx; Jul 27th, 2011 at 2:29:19 PM.

Jul 20th, 2011, 2:24:59 PM	#2576
Stellar Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,264	I think he meant "does No Guard allow the user to hit a Pokémon through Substitute?" (similar to hitting Flying or Digging Pokémon)

Jul 22nd, 2011, 5:25:15 PM	#2579
MB Espeon Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 355 Make way for magic bounce espeon!	I know it says Shadow Tag doesn't prevent rotation, but just to be thorough, Arena Trap should probably be added to that statement. Tested this one over at the Opelucid rotation battle house in Black.

Jul 27th, 2011, 5:40:08 PM	#2584
Zyrac Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 65	I'm looking for some clarification on how Friend Guard works. There is a frustrating lack of solid information on this. The OP here says it "reduces damage done to a teammate by 25%", but that's awfully vague. Does it reduce damage taken from allies, enemies or both? In a triple battle, does it only work on allies adjacent to the user?

Jul 28th, 2011, 3:10:14 PM	#2585
black_cotton Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 475 It's Show Time.	Past Generations Conversion couldn't select Curse because of the ??? type. The thing is in this Gen. Curse is an Ghost-type move. Can conversion select it right now? Edit: No need anymore, I tested and Conversion really selected curse, making smeargle a ghost type. Last edited by black_cotton; Jul 28th, 2011 at 3:26:42 PM.

Jul 28th, 2011, 5:24:26 PM	#2586
poccil Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 398	Zyrac: My description for Friend Guard reads: Effectiveness of attacks against allies of the bearer (except confusion damage) is multiplied by 3/4. (This effect is cumulative.) Accordingly, Friend Guard affects attacks no matter which Pokemon caused the attack (otherwise it would have read, for example, "attacks by opposing Pokemon against allies of the bearer"; it doesn't affect confusion damage, though) and even if the Pokemon with Friend Guard and the ally are not adjacent (otherwise it would have read "attacks against adjacent allies of the bearer"). I've tested this Ability to make sure of this. __________________ Peter O. of The Ultimate Pokemon Center (Make a donation)

Jul 28th, 2011, 9:23:50 PM	#2587
Zyrac Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 65	Thank you, poccil. I will keep your site in mind from now on.

Jul 30th, 2011, 9:19:18 AM	#2588
Peterko Never give up! Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,070	OK something weird just happened in my game: I´m battling this Elite 4 fighting guy and his last Pokémon Conkeldurr just used Hammer Arm on my Rhyhorn, Rhyhorn magically (it has a much lower level and was at 50% HP) survived the hit with 1 HP left, but there was the animation as if it fainted. Now the game asks me "Battle using which Pokémon?" and when I click the 1/179 HP Rhyhorn it says Rhyhorn IN BATTLE and clicking on Rhyhorn again I get a message "Rhyhorn is already in battle!" Afterwards I clicked another Pokémon to send it out, but then the game froze on this screen... I didn´t know where else to post it. Also I haven´t altered the game in any way, have not traded with anyone, etc. It´s probably nothing major, but maybe someone else has similar experience. __________________ Black & White Battle Subway Records Platinum/HG/SS Battle Frontier and DP Battle Tower Records DP Battle Tower Records (Smogon's Greatest Hits) Emerald Battle Frontier Max Stats Pokemon Database Battle Subway Super Singles record: 623 - Cloyster, Garchomp, Suicune

Jul 30th, 2011, 9:29:15 AM	#2589
Jaxx Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 340 Work, work, work.	I'm assuming this is the legit copy of the game and not a patched rom? If so then I will look into this further. __________________ キラリ☆星になる！

Jul 30th, 2011, 9:32:20 AM	#2590
TM13IceBeam Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 3,247 stuck in the past, locked in the present, banned from the future	What's with the 2 Metagrosses with the same nick and HP? I haven't really been able to replicate this though. It might be something wrong with your game. :/ __________________ Start of turn 24 Natu used Grass Knot! It's super effective! The foe's Corsola lost 31% of its health! Riolu ftw Amazing Rotom-S is amazing KAKUNA i'm dead, don't bother contacting me

Jul 30th, 2011, 11:08:46 AM	#2591
CPU Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 439	Have you tried calculating the damage to see if it could have survived anyway? But then again, that would be a 4th Gen Calculation, and I have an inkling that the formula's changed somewhat, since I had a foe's Boldore survive a hit with 1 HP left (not Sturdy, no activation message) when I don't think it would have otherwise. Unfortunately I can't find my notes on what happened at the moment. __________________ Still a novice after 12 years.

Jul 30th, 2011, 11:18:53 AM	#2593
Virizion Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1,459 Dearest Princess Celestia;	That has happened before, it's similar to what the Battle Subway does when that one Fisherman guy sends out his fainted Vanilluxe/Starmie/Walrein, but I suppose when the same situation happens for the player, it just freezes the game. I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean anything, it's just a rare glitch. Edit: OH COME ON, MELVNI __________________ HACKED ONES ALLOWED. DON'T CHEAT!!!!!! Last edited by Virizion; Jul 30th, 2011 at 11:37:17 AM.

Jul 30th, 2011, 11:32:37 AM	#2594
TM13IceBeam Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 3,247 stuck in the past, locked in the present, banned from the future	it could possibly be a damage overflow or something since the linked thread has a random and probably low-levelled Cottonee involved. As Conkeldurr has a ridiculously high Attack stat and the level difference is approx. 15(Rhyhorn is LV 58 if I saw that correctly and Marshal's Conkeldurr is 72 on the rematch), and the attack used was a SE Hammer Arm, I suppose that it could be possible that the game couldn't handle that much overkill. I dunno actually, just my 2 cents. __________________ Start of turn 24 Natu used Grass Knot! It's super effective! The foe's Corsola lost 31% of its health! Riolu ftw Amazing Rotom-S is amazing KAKUNA i'm dead, don't bother contacting me

Jul 30th, 2011, 11:53:54 AM	#2595
Deaga Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 375	That doesn't seem right, though. There's ways to do much bigger overkill since previews gens (Kyogre using Surf on Geodude, anyone?) and they didn't overflow. BW has better technology, why would it? The only overflow I've heard of in Pokémon is Marowak in GSC, which was understandable because it was on a GBC cartridge. But on a DS one? I think that's unlikely. No idea of anything else it could be, however. :/ __________________ Diamond FC: Does anyone even play this shit anymore?

Jul 30th, 2011, 12:03:26 PM	#2596
TM13IceBeam Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 3,247 stuck in the past, locked in the present, banned from the future	I'm not really so sure, but I was looking around and found that the reported cases involved a lot of damage being done(Hammer Arm on Rhyhorn, and Hi Jump Kick on Cottonee). It's actually possible since in some hacks of B/W some trainers are hacked with LV 99 Pokemon and they give out lolz EXP, possibly an underflow or something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rdx5e7rcHrE scroll to around 3:25. When Flareon kills Volcarona he only gains 800 something EXP. Since B/W has things like 3D engine and what not, you never know. :/ __________________ Start of turn 24 Natu used Grass Knot! It's super effective! The foe's Corsola lost 31% of its health! Riolu ftw Amazing Rotom-S is amazing KAKUNA i'm dead, don't bother contacting me

Jul 30th, 2011, 12:11:03 PM	#2597
Jaxx Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 340 Work, work, work.	I'm going to assume that a badged researcher would have only posted this if the game was legit and not a patched rom. Of course the idea of a damage overflow is almost ridiculous. Since the upgrade to ds I have done some massive damage including V-creating a lv5 with my lv100 Victini with a choice band. I just simply think we are taking this the wrong route. I will be testing this out to confirm the details however I don't think pulling at straws is the right answer. __________________ キラリ☆星になる！

Aug 1st, 2011, 11:07:03 AM	#2600
*Antar That's Dr. Antar to you Super Moderator** Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 2,052 DC Metro Area	I need some help confirming something rather unfortunate. So I had a Wi-Fi battle that ended up pitting Jirachi against Scrafty. Jirachi launches a Doom Desire after 1 Calm Mind. Three turns later, Jirachi launches a second Doom Desire. In those intervening three turns, Jirachi got off 1 additional CM, and Scrafty got up 3 Bulk Ups (which shouldn't matter). I saved the battle, played back the game using an emulator, and managed to get a somewhat exact reading on how much each Doom Desire did. The first did approximately 63%. The second did approximately 31%. Using this damage calculator, I have managed to verify three things: +1 DD against Max HP, Max (S)Def Scrafty does 55-65% (good) +2 DD against Max HP, Max (S)Def Scrafty with no defensive boosts does 74-88% (a LONG WAY off from 31%) +2 DD against Max HP, Max (S)Def Scrafty with the defense stat at +3 does... 29-35% So I'm left with one of two possibilities: either Bulk Up raises SDef as well as Def, or Doom Desire hits on the physical side. I can post an excerpt of the battle if that would help. [Edit: Update. I just heard back from my opponent. He says he was running Careful, 252 HP, 248 SpD. If Doom Desire hits on the physical side, that means: +1 DD against non-boosted Scrafty does 84-99% +1 DD against +3 Scrafty does 34-40% +2 DD against +3 Scrafty does 45-53% What this seems to indicate is that Bulk Up is raising SpD, but I find that HIGHLY unlikely, as I'm sure people would have noticed it long before now. So I'm left with... what? Glitch in the game?] [Edit 2: I have an answer. It is EXTREMELY strange. First off, I screwed up the calcs (mis-entered the SpA as 252 rather than 4). So here are some calcs, based on the set my opponent gave me: +1 DD against Scrafty does 44-52% +2 DD against Scrafty does 59-70% +0 DD against Scrafty does... 29-35% This makes perfect sense if you realize the following: Doom Desire not only uses the current stats of the current defending pokemon when it hits... it uses the current stats of the current offensive pokemon as well. Because... here's the thing I failed to mention: Jirachi was KOed immediately before that second DD hit. So, I guess, to the game, a KOed pokemon is considered to be at +0. I've verified in some tests on my end (against a Slowking) that this theory is consistent--what matters is the stats ON BOTH SIDES at the time the attack hits, not the stats at the time the attack is launched, but I'm going to need to check whether Doom Desires can be passed (as in, use DD on Jirachi, switch to a poke with INSANE SpA... what will the game use to calculate the damage?).] [Edit 3: Results of DD-passing are in, and they're rather disappointing. Doom Desire uses Jirachi's current SpA to calculate damage. So if Jirachi is out and at +6, that's awesome. But if you called Jirachi back or if Jirachi was KOed, Jirachi is considered to be at +0. Sigh. I think it's time to replace DD with Flash Cannon...] __________________ Codes and Hacks I Use PBR FC: 4898-8739-8815 (See here) Black FC: 4040 5386 0128 / White 2 FC: 4771 3664 7215 My Narrated PBR & Gen V Battles My Trade Thread Convert any sim team to pkms Pokemetrics: A Blog Last edited by Antar; Aug 1st, 2011 at 1:28:05 PM.