Togekiss

[Noble Cactus]

How does Togekiss fare against Roobushin? Togekiss has above average bulk, is neutral to Mach/Drain Punch and Hammer Arm, has Nasty Plot to boost his Special Attack, has Roost to recover off any damage from switching in while Roobushin Bulks Up (may not be the best strategy; it's getting late and I can't think clearly), and has an SE STAB in Air Slash, not to mention its flinch hax and that it hits Roobushin's weaker Special Defense. Paralysis would trigger the big clown's Guts (his most popular ability), so just straight-up flinch seems the way to go.

[Chou Toshio]

Togekiss finally falls to UU. :P I never really liked Togekiss last gen, and this one . . . huh . . .

[Pentao]

Originally Posted by Fat Noble Cactus

How does Togekiss fare against Roobushin? Togekiss has above average bulk, is neutral to Mach/Drain Punch and Hammer Arm, has Nasty Plot to boost his Special Attack, has Roost to recover off any damage from switching in while Roobushin Bulks Up (may not be the best strategy; it's getting late and I can't think clearly), and has an SE STAB in Air Slash, not to mention its flinch hax and that it hits Roobushin's weaker Special Defense. Paralysis would trigger the big clown's Guts (his most popular ability), so just straight-up flinch seems the way to go.

Togekiss needs to watch out for Stone Edge primarily (or Rock Slide if it's an Encourage user, though that is rare considering how few moves Roopushin has to abuse Encourage with), as it will rip it to shreds. However otherwise, with the right EVs, it could probably switch in on most moves and then OHKO with Air Slash.... but I haven't done any calcs. Roost may not be the best idea, since Togekiss will definitely outspeed Roop's pathetic 45 base speed and thus, leave itself vulnerable to some fighting attacks.

Still, a +sp. attack nature Togekiss seems like it could handle Roopy. Not as well as Rankurusu though.

[Chozo]

Originally Posted by Fat Noble Cactus

How does Togekiss fare against Roobushin? Togekiss has above average bulk, is neutral to Mach/Drain Punch and Hammer Arm, has Nasty Plot to boost his Special Attack, has Roost to recover off any damage from switching in while Roobushin Bulks Up (may not be the best strategy; it's getting late and I can't think clearly), and has an SE STAB in Air Slash, not to mention its flinch hax and that it hits Roobushin's weaker Special Defense. Paralysis would trigger the big clown's Guts (his most popular ability), so just straight-up flinch seems the way to go.

In an even fight, Togekiss will beat the standard Mach/Drain/Payback/Bulk Up Roobushin: I run modest, granted, but even a Togekiss with minimal EV investment should probably be able to 2HKO easily, assuming the Roobushin's running no special defense EVs (252 modest does 88% minimum, if my calculations are correct).

That said, Roobushin is still powerful enough and Togekiss' defenses eh enough that you don't necessarily want to be catching Drain and Mach Punches with him (especially if he catches status beforehand and has a Bulk Up or two under his belt). Stealth Rock also hurts Togekiss as a counter if it's in play, since that puts you closer to the danger zone and as Pentao pointed out it's a dangerous proposition to Roost against Roobushin.

I'd say Togekiss is more of a soft counter, since he can deal with Roobushin easily enough under normal circumstances, but starts to run into trouble once Stealth Rock is in play (since it's much higher opportunity cost for him to switch in than it is for Roobushin to switch out) or Roobushin gets a couple Bulk Ups or Bulk Up + Guts under his belt.

[AccidentalGreed]

I wouldn't go as far as to say the Toge-family has fallen into "obscurity" again, since, like some above me have stated, it has solid stat distribution amongst some not-so-fortunate threats like Daikenki and Magmortar.

Really, I like using Togekiss competitively, and I even plan to use it in the Fifth generation provided it's friendly to it. What I think sets Togekiss back rather than having a soft defensive knot is the fact that it's pretty slow, in the 80 Speed range. This thing might need an Agility pass or Thunder-Wave support to be extremely terrifying to the opponent. The good thing is that many Pokemon are choosing to forgo Flinch-resistant abilities for alternate Dream World ones, like Lucario and Dragonite.

This might fare well to Togekiss. Nasty Plot is definitely the way to go for offensive.

[Ericcc]

Well, if you want Speedy, there's always a Timid nature.

279 speed (I think with maximum or close to maximum EV investment) isn't THAT slow...

[LeviLamprey]

Out of the blue, is Morning Sun useful on Togekiss or is it redundant?

[Ericcc]

Well seeing as how Roost makes it susceptible to EQ, and the like, Morning Sun can see some use. But remember, Tyranitar still exists - which makes Roost the premier option (solely in terms of healing).

[AccidentalGreed]

Originally Posted by Fat LevitatingLamprey

Out of the blue, is Morning Sun useful on Togekiss or is it redundant?

Considering...

• Togekiss' access to Roost,
• the release of Dream World Ninetales and Politoed,
• the already presence of Sandstorm, Offensive and Stall-oriented
• and the fact that Morning Sun's mechanics largely depend on the weather

...Roost is almost always the better option. Exception admitted if you manage to keep the Sun up.

[Ericcc]

@above; oh, completely forgot about Ninetails... Well if Kiss makes it down to UU (let's hope not), it'll be seen with that "Droughtails" quite often.

[Raptorg]

Originally Posted by Fat Ericcc

@above; oh, completely forgot about Ninetails... Well if Kiss makes it down to UU (let's hope not), it'll be seen with that "Droughtails" quite often.

Unlikely, Ninetails is definitely OU material, or at the very least BL.

There is still Vulpix, though.

[Boondocker]

Originally Posted by Fat Chou Toshio

Togekiss finally falls to UU. :P I never really liked Togekiss last gen, and this one . . . huh . . .

Togekiss was underrated last gen. VERY few things could counter it, and the stuff that did was easily taken out (rotom, blissey, jolteon, zapdos can all be trapped by ttar). Scarftar had 1000 counters so even he wasnt that threatning. It had a very nice nitch of countering suicune and if it wasnt for sr that thing would've been high ou.

As for this gen, i think he has even more potential. Electric moves are very risky to use (hi garchomp, zapdos, etc), ice moves are rare and often dont do enough damage, so rock moves only threaten you. Teams will probly rely on dorry or zapdos to counter it, and once theyre gone kiss has a feild day. Extremely useful against sun teams, can take a hit or 2 from rain teams, and easily fits on a bp team (extremely dangerous with blaziken running rapid). I dont think it will fall to uu. Or at least it shouldnt.

[Jaroda]

Togekiss unfortunately does not resist Roopushin's fighting moves and thus isn't a solid counter. If Roopushin has already Bulked Up and Togekiss switches in, it will die in two hits. If Togekiss comes in to revenge and it can't OHKO Roopushin, or Roopushin doesn't flinch, than Roopushin heals with Drain Punch and finishes with Mach Punch. The outcome entirely depends on how specially defensive the Roopushin it and how many SpA Evs you have.

[LeviLamprey]

Why oh why? Togi can't even solidly KO a Fighting type...maybe it needs Baton Passed Shell Breaks or something? It could be a BP recipient, maybe?

[Raptorg]

It appears that Modest Specskiss has a chance to OHKO max HP/SpD careful Roobushin(~87%-102%), while surviving +1 drain punch with stealth rock(also capable of surviving +2 without stealth rock, but falls with)
Sadly that does mean that Togekiss falls to Mach Punch if Roobushin doesn't flinch, but it does bring it into KO range for a fast priority user.

That is, if I did properly input stuff in the calculator..

[Rayquaza_]

I seriously doubt that Togekiss will fall to UU, it's just too strong for that tier.
It will probably be BL since there are too many pokemon that resist its moves in OU.

[Cooky]

Originally Posted by Fat Rayquaza_

I seriously doubt that Togekiss will fall to UU, it's just too strong for that tier.
It will probably be BL since there are too many pokemon that resist its moves in OU.

If Togekiss's usage falls below the barrier (whatever that will be) then it will be dropped instantly into UU for a testing phase, in the same vein as Heracross / Porygon Z etc.

Also it actually has fairly good offensive type coverage with Aura Sphere / Air Slash / Flamethrower. Unfortunately its typing lends it pretty poor defensive utility with some very common weaknesses (notably rock so SR weak), it has only base 80 speed which wasn't fast enough for a sweeper in Gen IV, let alone Gen V, and its decent special bulk cannot compensate for poor physical bulk in a primarily physical metagame.

Still a very cool pokemon though, with that awesome parafusion set.

[Bologo]

I remember last gen I used this Togekiss set, which I planned to write an analysis for but was too lazy. It seems like it still has a lot of potential this gen though:

Togekiss @Leftovers
EVs: I don't remember, but I know it had 252 HP and a lot of Special Defense
Calm Nature
Serene Grace

- Substitute
- Roost
- Toxic
- Air Slash

People really underestimate how deadly Toxic + Flinch can be. Taking an attack as well as poison damage while not being able to do anything back for a turn adds up really quickly. While this Togekiss isn't necessarily the best thing to use against offensive teams, it rocks a stall team's world.

Because so many members of a stall team are slow, they're susceptible to flinchhax from Air Slash. A lot of the members aren't strong enough to break Togekiss's Substitutes either, since Togekiss is quite the bulky fuck. When they flinch, it means that they can't recover their health, while they're taking a lot of damage in the process.

Basically this set is a lot like SubRoost Zapdos. The only difference is that Zapdos deals with Steel-types better, but Togekiss is a better overall staller thanks to Air Slash. Of course, if you have Toxic Spikes support on your team, that's actually irrelevant, since Togekiss now has the option of dropping Toxic and putting Flamethrower or Aura Sphere on the set, although it might not be the greatest idea in case you come across a wall that's invulnerable to Toxic Spikes.

I think that SubRoost with Flinch is going to be Togekiss's best niche this gen, because seriously, Shaymin-S does the boosting sweeper thing better with Growth on steroids. Stoned Togetic is a better PlotPasser due to much more bulk, not to mention Volbeat who passes Tail Glow and has an easier time doing so. Jirachi is a much better ParaFlincher IMO, because he can come in and do the job more often, with a 100% accurate STAB. Togekiss might have Encore going for him, but Volbeat might be better at that too thanks to Mischievous Heart.

SubRoost with Flinch is something that only Togekiss and Dunsparce can do, and it's pretty obvious that Togekiss does it better. Therefore, it's a niche that he can call his own in OU, so I personally think he's gotta try and abuse it as much as possible if he wants to have a reason to be used.

Honestly, it's a real pity that Togekiss didn't get Agility or Calm Mind, because it really needed one, the other, or both to be a much better contender in OU.

[Quaily]

speed is kind of irrelevant to togekiss. the only other poke capable of doing paraflinch is jirachi, both have their advantages. Roost is essential to this set because you will have the speed advantage on anything they bring into a thunder wave except for a couple immunes. lightning rod electric types will probably be togekiss's biggest weakness this gen.

[Banryu]

Originally Posted by Fat Bologo

I remember last gen I used this Togekiss set, which I planned to write an analysis for but was too lazy. It seems like it still has a lot of potential this gen though:

Togekiss @Leftovers
EVs: I don't remember, but I know it had 252 HP and a lot of Special Defense
Calm Nature
Serene Grace

- Substitute
- Roost
- Toxic
- Air Slash

People really underestimate how deadly Toxic + Flinch can be. Taking an attack as well as poison damage while not being able to do anything back for a turn adds up really quickly. While this Togekiss isn't necessarily the best thing to use against offensive teams, it rocks a stall team's world.

Because so many members of a stall team are slow, they're susceptible to flinchhax from Air Slash. A lot of the members aren't strong enough to break Togekiss's Substitutes either, since Togekiss is quite the bulky fuck. When they flinch, it means that they can't recover their health, while they're taking a lot of damage in the process.

Seems like a pretty interesting idea. I can see how that would be effective against Stall, and I really think it could work. :3 I'd love to try a set like this.

Originally Posted by Fat Bologo

Basically this set is a lot like SubRoost Zapdos. The only difference is that Zapdos deals with Steel-types better, but Togekiss is a better overall staller thanks to Air Slash. Of course, if you have Toxic Spikes support on your team, that's actually irrelevant, since Togekiss now has the option of dropping Toxic and putting Flamethrower or Aura Sphere on the set, although it might not be the greatest idea in case you come across a wall that's invulnerable to Toxic Spikes.

If you TSpikes support and in the event that you DO come across something immune to them, chances are it's something that flies or a Steel-type. :0 With the exception of Heatran, Flamethrower will handle all of them. It seems like a perfectly fine idea to me, so I'm not really sure why you're second guessing yourself with that. e__@ Maybe I'm missing something.

Originally Posted by Fat Bologo

Honestly, it's a real pity that Togekiss didn't get Agility or Calm Mind, because it really needed one, the other, or both to be a much better contender in OU.

This is just my opinion, but I don't really see a lot of sense in lamenting about who-should-have-got-what. :0 It's not like that will really change anything, (obviously) I rather just focus on making them work with what they DID get.

[PokéMontage]

Originally Posted by Fat Cooky

and its decent special bulk cannot compensate for poor physical bulk in a primarily physical metagame.

It's physical defense isn't fantastic, but I wouldn't call 85/95 poor.

[Quaily]

A full defense togekiss is almost as bulky as swampert(85/95 vs 100/90). Most people would rather play more to its strengths though and ev it to spd.

[CanadiEntei]

Originally Posted by Fat Bologo

I remember last gen I used this Togekiss set, which I planned to write an analysis for but was too lazy. It seems like it still has a lot of potential this gen though:

Togekiss @Leftovers
EVs: I don't remember, but I know it had 252 HP and a lot of Special Defense
Calm Nature
Serene Grace

- Substitute
- Roost
- Toxic
- Air Slash

People really underestimate how deadly Toxic + Flinch can be. Taking an attack as well as poison damage while not being able to do anything back for a turn adds up really quickly. While this Togekiss isn't necessarily the best thing to use against offensive teams, it rocks a stall team's world.

Because so many members of a stall team are slow, they're susceptible to flinchhax from Air Slash. A lot of the members aren't strong enough to break Togekiss's Substitutes either, since Togekiss is quite the bulky fuck. When they flinch, it means that they can't recover their health, while they're taking a lot of damage in the process.

Basically this set is a lot like SubRoost Zapdos. The only difference is that Zapdos deals with Steel-types better, but Togekiss is a better overall staller thanks to Air Slash. Of course, if you have Toxic Spikes support on your team, that's actually irrelevant, since Togekiss now has the option of dropping Toxic and putting Flamethrower or Aura Sphere on the set, although it might not be the greatest idea in case you come across a wall that's invulnerable to Toxic Spikes.

I think that SubRoost with Flinch is going to be Togekiss's best niche this gen, because seriously, Shaymin-S does the boosting sweeper thing better with Growth on steroids. Stoned Togetic is a better PlotPasser due to much more bulk, not to mention Volbeat who passes Tail Glow and has an easier time doing so. Jirachi is a much better ParaFlincher IMO, because he can come in and do the job more often, with a 100% accurate STAB. Togekiss might have Encore going for him, but Volbeat might be better at that too thanks to Mischievous Heart.

SubRoost with Flinch is something that only Togekiss and Dunsparce can do, and it's pretty obvious that Togekiss does it better. Therefore, it's a niche that he can call his own in OU, so I personally think he's gotta try and abuse it as much as possible if he wants to have a reason to be used.

Honestly, it's a real pity that Togekiss didn't get Agility or Calm Mind, because it really needed one, the other, or both to be a much better contender in OU.

That Togekiss set reminds me of Shaymin's Gracidea Forme. Having been swept by such a Skymin makes me want to try that Togekiss, or one similar.

[JSND]

skymin has better speed. Better movepool and jard to prepare for.
Blissey ? subseed. Speed and another Skymin ? Scarf Scarf ? prediction
even with skymin on your own skymin is hard to handle

[AccidentalGreed]

Well, it looks like Shaymin-S is out of Standard OU for the moment and possibly for eternity. I can say that Togekiss can for the most part run its bread-and-butter Nasty Plot sets without being out-niched.

Getting it out there, I hope for more discussion for Togekiss without comparing it to Skymin ( who admitedly does several things better than it, but he's Uber). Testing out Togekiss in the "Inconsistent" phase of 5th generation, Togekiss is still pretty solid in OU. I can at least say that due to Paraflinch and Specs.