R.I.P. Leads and Scouting

[Eggbert]

Oh my opponent has a lucario let me save my gliscor. Oh my opponent has a breloom I probably should be careful with choiced moves. ect. This is bad.

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat Clockwork Seal

Kind of like how knowing what Salamence and Garchomp were going to do (Come in and sweep either with choice or setup) made them so predictable and easy to deal with in Gen IV?

If you know beforehand that your opponent has a Garchomp or Salamence waiting to sweep, you can keep your counters or revenge killers for them alive and undamaged, making it much, much easier to deal with them when they enter the field.

Besides, not everything is Salamence or Garchomp.

[foxy_eisenhower]

Originally Posted by Fat General Spoon

What I'm saying is that both what Guy 1 and you are saying is true; there will still be surprise and the cake is kinda like chocolate. Its just nobody gives a crap. Yes, some pokemon are diverse. Big fucking deal when you see the rest of the opponent's team. You can probably get a general idea how his team is set-up from that etc.

If that's what the poop analogy means I think your friend lives under a rock and has a problem with speaking for entire groups of people

[Omnipresent]

Originally Posted by Fat General Spoon

What I'm saying is that both what Guy 1 and you are saying is true; there will still be surprise and the cake is kinda like chocolate. Its just nobody gives a crap. Yes, some pokemon are diverse. Big fucking deal when you see the rest of the opponent's team. You can probably get a general idea how his team is set-up from that etc.

I must be on stupid mode to not understand that analogy. I re-read it again, makes way more sense.

Would have been awesome if you accidentally ate a shit covered cake. I wouldn't have been alone finally >>

But on a serious note you just never know man, surprise factors happen all the time, and to be honest, without testing forrhis new meta, we'll never know if you can predict their team, or if you can't.

[CWW]

Originally Posted by Fat General Spoon

Yes, some pokemon are diverse. Big fucking deal when you see the rest of the opponent's team. You can probably get a general idea how his team is set-up from that etc.

Unless you have amazing deducing abilities, I doubt it.

[toshimelonhead]

Are they REALLY taking all of the strategy out of this game with this + Shanderaa?

[Omnipresent]

Like I said before, you can deal with the changes and evolve with the strategy, or stick to your rebellion/idea on it being retarded, and stop playing. Pretty much simple.

Either that or hope there's a way to choose a different option. It's highly unlikely though.

[HART4FLOON]

Thanks a lot Gamefreak. If battle simulators implement this bullshit...

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat CWW

Unless you have amazing deducing abilities, I doubt it.

Let's test that theory. Pick a successful Gen 4 team you've used and post the Pokemon in it, with no other information. Just what you'd see with this implemented.

We'll see how much we can figure out about it.

[Clockwork Seal]

you can keep your counters or revenge killers for them alive and undamaged, making it much, much easier to deal with them when they enter the field.

At which point you have essentially set your pogeys up as wasted slots if he saves his Mence for later, knowing that you're just sitting around and passively waiting for him to move. Simply by allowing you to know that he has a Mence he has put you on the defensive and limited your playstyle, quite possibly allowing him to set up other shenanigans.

This switches the core of the game from 'wait and counter' to 'seize the momentum.' Some people might not like that, but pretending that it's somehow invalid or takes less skill is asinine at best, and absolutely retarded at worst.

[RocketSurgery]

Originally Posted by Fat General Spoon

Here, let me borrow an analogy from a friend of mine.

Guy 1: I've baked a cake! But it's not chocolate.
Guy 2: But I want chocolate! Chocolate cake is the best!
Guy 1: Well, it looks kinda like chocolate and might taste kinda like chocolate so it should be OK.
Guy 2: Guy 1, why'd you cover your cake in dog shit?

That reminds me of a story I heard once. It was about a guy who didn't like green eggs and ham. He wouldn't eat them on a train, he wouldn't eat them on a plane, he didn't like them here or there, he didn't like them anywhere. Then, finally, his friend got him to try some and

...

---

it turned out he did like green eggs and ham!

[Clockwork Seal]

Let's test that theory. Pick a successful Gen 4 team you've used

Because Gen IV pogeys have the same versatility and number of options that they do in Gen V with new moves and dream world abilities available.

[Paradox]

While seeing your opponents' pokemon before a match certainly eliminates a large part of scouting, you still don't know their movesets or exactly what your opponent will do at any given point in the match. Thus I still see most scouting tactics having at least some value in battle.

U-turn (and Baton Pass/Volt Change) still allows you to see your opponents switch-in before you switch, and Protect can be used to scout your opponents moveset.

So scoutings definitely not nearly as good, but also not quite dead.

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat Clockwork Seal

At which point you have essentially set your pogeys up as wasted slots if he saves his Mence for later, knowing that you're just sitting around and passively waiting for him to move. Simply by allowing you to know that he has a Mence he has put you on the defensive and limited your playstyle, quite possibly allowing him to set up other shenanigans.

This switches the core of the game from 'wait and counter' to 'seize the momentum.' Some people might not like that, but pretending that it's somehow invalid or takes less skill is asinine at best, and absolutely retarded at worst.

If you play foolishly, yes. There are alternatives.

I'm talking about options when team building.

[Omnipresent]

If you're a good player, your strategy is all you need. If you lack skill, of course this intimidates you. I like this idea. I liked the element of surprise but it's a new twist to a new generation. Let's see how it goes, right?

Besides now it's not the same boring Azelf Aero leads that become repeltitive and boring in itself.

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat Clockwork Seal

Because Gen IV pogeys have the same versatility and number of options that they do in Gen V with new moves and dream world abilities available.

Close enough.

[Morm]

thor hammer you're gonna look awfully foolish if you try this and enjoy it. What basis do you have for your rampant hatred other than speculation on a metagame that doesn't exist yet?

[Clockwork Seal]

I'm talking about options when team building.

So you've already figured out which pogeys are going to come out viable and utterly dominate the pokétransparent metagame? Astonishing! Why don't you just go ahead and tell us the tier lists and dominant sets and save us all the time and trouble?

Close enough.

So you would counter a SD/Taunt/Mold Breaker Ono the same way you would a Scarf/Rivalry one? To say nothing of the pogeys that actually have more sets than 'choice or boost and physical sweep.'

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat Kitten Bukkake

thor hammer you're gonna look awfully foolish if you try this and enjoy it. What basis do you have for your rampant hatred other than speculation on a metagame that doesn't exist yet?

I'm willing to take that risk.

You have any other basis? This is Gen 5, everything is speculation.

[Omnipresent]

Originally Posted by Fat RocketSurgery

That reminds me of a story I heard once. It was about a guy who didn't like green eggs and ham. He wouldn't eat them on a train, he wouldn't eat them on a plane, he didn't like them here or there, he didn't like them anywhere. Then, finally, his friend got him to try some and

...

---

it turned out he did like green eggs and ham!

Dahaha /win

I'm done lmao. I like it, Machamp leads are still very viable, Metagross leads, etc.

[Morm]

Basis would include other pokemon games that have implemented this, IE all the console ones IIRC.

[CWW]

Originally Posted by Fat Thorhammer

Let's test that theory. Pick a successful Gen 4 team you've used and post the Pokemon in it, with no other information. Just what you'd see with this implemented.

We'll see how much we can figure out about it.

...

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[General Spoon]

.

[Morm]

Originally Posted by Fat CWW

Pretty sure I can guess what these mons are up to. But it's not as if I wouldn't figure that out within seconds of them coming out! The only hindrance would be for late game sweepers, TBH.

[CWW]

No, I'm pretty sure you don't.