R.I.P. Leads and Scouting - Page 3

Arikado · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:36:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Tagrineth

Prediction of the unknown?

It takes away guesswork, not prediction...

Call me stupid, but whats really the difference ? O_o

skullzie · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:36:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Lee

And guys, what's with all the negativity?

It's just an unnecessary (and dumb) change. It completely changes what pokemon has always been.

CWW · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:36:26 PM

The mindgames. The mindgames.

I like it.

Bombkirby · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:37:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Ice-eyes

Can someone test this on a Link Battle?

Its the same. And theres nothing wrong with that.

Thanks a LOT op... Your post put everyone in a panic with it's negative tone.

Quacks · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:38:09 PM

I don't see myself playing Random Wifi matches too often, and if this is indeed the only kind of matches where this will apply, it won't shake up teambuilding process. If there's no bans at all over Random Wifi I wouldn't expect it to become overwhelmingly popular either, as over friend code matches you have some sort of contact with your opponent before match begins.

Probably there will be some spilt between standard teams and teams suited for Random Wifi play, but it's safe to say leads and scouting will remain important in B/W.

Edit: Well, if teams are also shown in FC matches then it does wreck the idea of scouting and leads. I'm not sure whether I like this or not, but it will be an interesting change.

Da Letter El · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:38:33 PM

Prediction = making an educated guess based off of information that you already have. Requires thinking.

Guessing = making a guess based on little information and hoping that it pays off. Tends to take much less thinking.

Arikado · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:38:38 PM

@ Jumpluff:
You saying this will happen in all kinds of battles ?

....SHIT.

Murkglow · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:38:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Bombkirby

Thanks a LOT op... Your post put everyone in a panic with it's negative tone.

Right because it's the tone that people were reacting to and not the idea...

Bombkirby · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:38:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Arikado

Call me stupid, but whats really the difference ? O_o

"What 'skill' was there under the old system? Checking server statistics every month to see whether Blissey has fallen enough to put a special sweeper on your team? If anything this will make for better mindgames. Magnezone knows that Skarmory knows he is in the wings. Does the Skarmory player switch out immediately and waste a valuable turn? Does the Magnezone player take it since Skarmory didn't switch out he is running shed shell? Does he whirlwind right away and give away he doesn't have shed shell? Or is he bluffing?"

Read that ^

If you don't KNOW the opponent's team such thoughts never occur and you can fall right into their trap. If both of you know each other's teams then you both are gonna be trying to out predict one another making for some VERY vital decisions.

***jumpluff**** · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:40:19 PM

Okay, just for a bit more evidence. I don't have a video camera so this shitty photo will have to do. I didn't get my silver DS in the shot, unfortunately.

Arikado: Can't try link battles, but all the battles I've tried have this, yes.

Anyway, for everyone being all doomy gloomy -- I don't like it either, but a new generation means we need to keep an open mind. Consider that it opens up an early prediction game instead of the blind predictions and guesses that we have now. I'm too tired to write an essay about it or anything but stop acting like it's the end of the world. It adds a definite element of prediction and strategy that wasn't there before. It may not be the best thing but if we end up having to use it that's how it is and it's not all bad.

AxelLow · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:40:44 PM

The only thing it brings is mindgames, not prediction or guessing.

Bombkirby · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:40:49 PM

OH MY GOSH!

Okay I realize some people may think this means that you can see your opponent's MOVESETS and ITEMS and STATS but you cannot. Just the pokemon's species and nickname is viewable. Thats how it was in PBR.

Gazooki · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:41:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Bombkirby

OH MY GOSH!

Okay I realize some people may think this means that you can see your opponent's MOVESETS and ITEMS and STATS but you cannot. Just the pokemon's species and nickname is viewable. Thats how it was in PBR.

You can still guess though.

skullzie · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:42:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Bombkirby

OH MY GOSH!

Okay I realize some people may think this means that you can see your opponent's MOVESETS and ITEMS and STATS but you cannot. Just the pokemon's species and nickname is viewable. Thats how it was in PBR.

Yeah I think we all realize. Still dumb.

Rising_Dusk · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:42:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Elevator Music

I think that this is a big change and I don't quite know how to feel about it.

Saying "It takes away lots of things grrr" isn't really looking at the whole picture. Yeah, there's some things that were a major part of Gen4 that are now invalid in Gen5 (hiding your sweeper and the way we lead etc.). It also added more depth to the we way play Pokemon in other ways though (prediction is much more important blah blah blah). This is an entirely different game now. That's not a good thing or a bad thing, and your perspective on this shouldn't really be "this is a great change" or "the way we did stuff before was better".

If you came into Gen5 thinking you'd automatically be the shit because you were awesome at Gen4, you were mistaken. But not just because of this.

This is how I feel through and through. It's a whole new game, and we should embrace this change completely. Maybe with this change, a lot of our preconceptions about what constitutes broken or not will change. For instance, knowing if the opponent has a Shadow Tag Pokemon or not will completely revolutionize whether or not they are impossible to adequately and fairly prepare for. We need to accept this, if it's true, and take it in stride.

That said, I prefer the hiding aspect of DPP. I've played Pokemon Colosseum and other mediums where you could see your opponent's Pokemon, and I always enjoyed the hiding more. I like tactfully keeping my sweeper secret and using Roar/Whirlwind and U-turn as a means of scouting my opponents. That, to me, is very enjoyable. However, if that goes away, I am not going to ragequit the game, I'll just play BW and constantly reminisce on the "good ole' days" of DPP. One isn't inherently better than the other like so many other posts suggest, though, and we need to grasp that going into BW.

I look forward to learning the final verdict of this as-of-yet rumor.

Recoil · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:42:52 PM

Just a wild guess. What if there's an option for "normal" battles on the Wi-Fi/Union rooms?
Personally, I don't see the point of seeing teams and choosing the members of your team if you can use 6 Pokemon. For those battles I've seen on YT it makes some sense to choose 3 or 4 out of 6, but on a full party, all you'd choose would be your lead - the rest doesn't matter at all, unless you have a Zoroark on your team. And even so, all you'd need to choose would be the first and last slots.

Here's hoping that this is either false or that there's an option to turn it off, and we can't see it because of the language barrier.

Immaterial · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:43:14 PM

You can't guess a set just by looking at a Pokémon, so if anything, I'm thinking this will just encourage rarer/"creative" movesets.

Are all singles random matches 3v3 in BW? I greatly prefer the 6v6 format. Setting up SR or other entry hazards in 3v3 isn't anywhere near as useful though, so I'm guessing people might just not use leads at all.

EDIT: We might have people ragequitting before the match actually starts now! Joy.

Esurio · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:43:40 PM

Well first off I think if it were true it'd be fine.

It'd be game changing but it'd be like having a team roster before the match. Something to scout over and change playstyles accordingly. Sure enough it would create a new type of playstyle where you have probably two potential leads instead of just one. Overall it would change the battle strategies but it would not make it any less skillful.

However, as its not true for friend code matches. No one needs worry.

***jumpluff**** · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:43:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Recoil

Just a wild guess. What if there's an option for "normal" battles on the Wi-Fi/Union rooms?
Personally, I don't see the point of seeing teams and choosing the members of your team if you can use 6 Pokemon. For those battles I've seen on YT it makes some sense to choose 3 or 4 out of 6, but on a full party, all you'd choose would be your lead - the rest doesn't matter at all, unless you have a Zoroark on your team. And even so, all you'd need to choose would be the first and last slots.

Here's hoping that this is either false or that there's an option to turn it off, and we can't see it because of the language barrier.

There isn't. I've already tried. I read Japanese pretty well and if I'm missing something it's damn well-hidden. I've been looking desperately every time I get on Wi-Fi.

CWW · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:43:50 PM

Uhm... You still have to predict and scout for moves...

That doesn't change.

TacoBot · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:45:35 PM

I played VGC-rules on PBR for a competition, and a large part of it was due to the fact that I could see my opponent's team upfront so I could adjust my team order accordingly (possible Abomasnow lead? Hold Groudon back for switching in on Turn 1. Things like that) to counter, and also I knew what possible special walls my opponent would have to prevent utter wastage of his team by Specs Zard using Heat Wave/Scarf Typhlosion with Eruption, which would then be solved by Groudon, or even in Palkia's case Specs Zard coming in and dispatching it with Dragon Pulse. I was also aware of Exploders, as well as anyone trying to pull Trick Room, so I could include my counters into the mix as well.

It leads to a lot of unneccessary mind-gaming at the higher-levels, I must admit, but knowing what your opponent has in store is important for you to destroy their strategy. Considering B/W is supposed to be more momentum-based, knowing how to throw a wrench into your opponent's plans will benefit you a lot.

Bombkirby · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:46:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat skullzie

Yeah I think we all realize. Still dumb.

No it really ISN'T.

YOU PEOPLE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND...this isn't gonna let our opponents predict who we'll switch into. Like for example, we send out a Dragonite, the opponent sends out an ice type...now they know we're gonna switch (or they think we will) and they think we might switch to Metagross who resists Ice. So they ready their HP fire only to find out Dnite didn't switch and instead used Ddance and is now ready to sweep. We still have to predict except we can now predict more accurately which in turn means our opponent has to predict when you predict they will predict a switch or attack UG ITS SO CONFUSING!

revdjweb · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:48:30 PM

As someone who has played a lot of PBR i think this is a positive change. It doesn't take less skill, just different skills and it certainly reduces hax switches to absorb/negate certain attacks and then set up.
There is a lot of 'showing the flag' in what 6 pokemon people put on their team, especially if they are only allowed to use 3 of them in a PBR battle. A lightning absorber, a flying/levitating type, a dragon counter, etc. But that doesn't mean any of them are going to show up in the fight. For example one of my personal favorite psych outs to use is to look like a Groudon/Sunny Day team and then use 3 pokemon who, while the fit on my Sunny day team, can function perfectly fine without sunshine. Meanwhile my opponent has selected his three pokemon in anticipation of having to KO a Groudon.
But back on topic I don't think this a deal breaker for Zoroark. It hasn't proven a dealbreaker for Wobuffet on PBR and actually knowing that he might show up probably reduces the threat he represents from Uber level to more like OU which IMO makes him more fun (always have a special dark attack lying around LOL).

skarm · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:48:48 PM

I'm trying to test with Huy again just in case, but as Pluff reads Japanese I think she is correct. My memory was obviously incorrect. I remember playing around with a bunch of options, but I was also chatting on IRC and doing other shit at the time.

Sorry for the misunderstanding - I think stellar and jumpluff are correct (however much that sucks)!

Random Rider · Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:48:59 PM

I like this change. Personally, I think it ADDS strategy. There are plenty of pokemon that will be less effective because and there are plenty of pokemon that will be more effective because of this. I think people are too scared of change, the 4th gen metagame will always be there for you to play if you want, I say we try out a new game for Gen.5. Imagine if you went back in time a decade ago to a hardcore red/blue/yellow player and told him all the crap that would be in Gen.4. Compared to that, this is isn't as big of a deal as many are making it to be.

Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:38:33 PM	#56
Da Letter El Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2,882	Prediction = making an educated guess based off of information that you already have. Requires thinking. Guessing = making a guess based on little information and hoping that it pays off. Tends to take much less thinking. __________________ [01:05] <DixieNormous> Rodan x pookar: Just Do It

Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:38:38 PM	#57
Arikado Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 526 Kuwait	@ Jumpluff: You saying this will happen in all kinds of battles ? ....SHIT. __________________ Kings of the North [5th gen Hail RMT] Fighting rain in the sand. [5th gen OU] Classic Volt Turn 5th gen RMT with good synergy

Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:40:19 PM	#60
*jumpluff just came to say hello Super Moderator** Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 5,379 Location: Australia Mentor	Okay, just for a bit more evidence. I don't have a video camera so this shitty photo will have to do. I didn't get my silver DS in the shot, unfortunately. Arikado: Can't try link battles, but all the battles I've tried have this, yes. Anyway, for everyone being all doomy gloomy -- I don't like it either, but a new generation means we need to keep an open mind. Consider that it opens up an early prediction game instead of the blind predictions and guesses that we have now. I'm too tired to write an essay about it or anything but stop acting like it's the end of the world. It adds a definite element of prediction and strategy that wasn't there before. It may not be the best thing but if we end up having to use it that's how it is and it's not all bad. __________________

Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:48:48 PM	#74
skarm I HAVE HOTEL ROOMS Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,284 Saskatoon, Canada	I'm trying to test with Huy again just in case, but as Pluff reads Japanese I think she is correct. My memory was obviously incorrect. I remember playing around with a bunch of options, but I was also chatting on IRC and doing other shit at the time. Sorry for the misunderstanding - I think stellar and jumpluff are correct (however much that sucks)! __________________ in this sig you are all assholes.

Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:36:26 PM	#53
CWW Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 392	The mindgames. The mindgames. I like it.

Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:38:09 PM	#55
Quacks Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 31	I don't see myself playing Random Wifi matches too often, and if this is indeed the only kind of matches where this will apply, it won't shake up teambuilding process. If there's no bans at all over Random Wifi I wouldn't expect it to become overwhelmingly popular either, as over friend code matches you have some sort of contact with your opponent before match begins. Probably there will be some spilt between standard teams and teams suited for Random Wifi play, but it's safe to say leads and scouting will remain important in B/W. Edit: Well, if teams are also shown in FC matches then it does wreck the idea of scouting and leads. I'm not sure whether I like this or not, but it will be an interesting change.

Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:40:44 PM	#61
AxelLow Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 199	The only thing it brings is mindgames, not prediction or guessing.

Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:40:49 PM	#62
Bombkirby Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 422	OH MY GOSH! Okay I realize some people may think this means that you can see your opponent's MOVESETS and ITEMS and STATS but you cannot. Just the pokemon's species and nickname is viewable. Thats how it was in PBR.

Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:42:52 PM	#66
Recoil Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 159	Just a wild guess. What if there's an option for "normal" battles on the Wi-Fi/Union rooms? Personally, I don't see the point of seeing teams and choosing the members of your team if you can use 6 Pokemon. For those battles I've seen on YT it makes some sense to choose 3 or 4 out of 6, but on a full party, all you'd choose would be your lead - the rest doesn't matter at all, unless you have a Zoroark on your team. And even so, all you'd need to choose would be the first and last slots. Here's hoping that this is either false or that there's an option to turn it off, and we can't see it because of the language barrier.

Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:43:14 PM	#67
Immaterial Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 98	You can't guess a set just by looking at a Pokémon, so if anything, I'm thinking this will just encourage rarer/"creative" movesets. Are all singles random matches 3v3 in BW? I greatly prefer the 6v6 format. Setting up SR or other entry hazards in 3v3 isn't anywhere near as useful though, so I'm guessing people might just not use leads at all. EDIT: We might have people ragequitting before the match actually starts now! Joy.

Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:43:40 PM	#68
Esurio Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 67	Well first off I think if it were true it'd be fine. It'd be game changing but it'd be like having a team roster before the match. Something to scout over and change playstyles accordingly. Sure enough it would create a new type of playstyle where you have probably two potential leads instead of just one. Overall it would change the battle strategies but it would not make it any less skillful. However, as its not true for friend code matches. No one needs worry.

Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:43:50 PM	#70
CWW Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 392	Uhm... You still have to predict and scout for moves... That doesn't change.

Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:45:35 PM	#71
TacoBot Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 74	I played VGC-rules on PBR for a competition, and a large part of it was due to the fact that I could see my opponent's team upfront so I could adjust my team order accordingly (possible Abomasnow lead? Hold Groudon back for switching in on Turn 1. Things like that) to counter, and also I knew what possible special walls my opponent would have to prevent utter wastage of his team by Specs Zard using Heat Wave/Scarf Typhlosion with Eruption, which would then be solved by Groudon, or even in Palkia's case Specs Zard coming in and dispatching it with Dragon Pulse. I was also aware of Exploders, as well as anyone trying to pull Trick Room, so I could include my counters into the mix as well. It leads to a lot of unneccessary mind-gaming at the higher-levels, I must admit, but knowing what your opponent has in store is important for you to destroy their strategy. Considering B/W is supposed to be more momentum-based, knowing how to throw a wrench into your opponent's plans will benefit you a lot.

Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:48:30 PM	#73
revdjweb Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 48	As someone who has played a lot of PBR i think this is a positive change. It doesn't take less skill, just different skills and it certainly reduces hax switches to absorb/negate certain attacks and then set up. There is a lot of 'showing the flag' in what 6 pokemon people put on their team, especially if they are only allowed to use 3 of them in a PBR battle. A lightning absorber, a flying/levitating type, a dragon counter, etc. But that doesn't mean any of them are going to show up in the fight. For example one of my personal favorite psych outs to use is to look like a Groudon/Sunny Day team and then use 3 pokemon who, while the fit on my Sunny day team, can function perfectly fine without sunshine. Meanwhile my opponent has selected his three pokemon in anticipation of having to KO a Groudon. But back on topic I don't think this a deal breaker for Zoroark. It hasn't proven a dealbreaker for Wobuffet on PBR and actually knowing that he might show up probably reduces the threat he represents from Uber level to more like OU which IMO makes him more fun (always have a special dark attack lying around LOL).

Sep 22nd, 2010, 1:48:59 PM	#75
Random Rider Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 75	I like this change. Personally, I think it ADDS strategy. There are plenty of pokemon that will be less effective because and there are plenty of pokemon that will be more effective because of this. I think people are too scared of change, the 4th gen metagame will always be there for you to play if you want, I say we try out a new game for Gen.5. Imagine if you went back in time a decade ago to a hardcore red/blue/yellow player and told him all the crap that would be in Gen.4. Compared to that, this is isn't as big of a deal as many are making it to be.