Infernape

[Wafflez]

Originally Posted by Fat Sheaz

Speed Boost Blaziken is obnoxiously over-hyped, and I fully believe that it will end up being the Electivire/ Weavile of this generation. Don't get me wrong, speed boost is a huge boon to Blaziken, but that doesn't mean it outclasses Infernape. Blaziken doesn't have very much variety in his movesets, and a speed boost doesn't mean much when someone can switch in a scarfer/ aqua jet user fairly easily; this is even more of a problem when taking into account Ken's fragility.

Infernape is great because he forces so many switches, and people don't know if Nape will NP, SD, U-turn, or fire off an extremely high powered STAB on the switch. I won't really argue that Ken is now a better sweeper, but IMO Infernape best sets weren't geared towards all out sweeping.

Originally Posted by Fat Lee

I'm crying because I've been a huge Blaziken fan for years and was getting sick of acknowledging that he was trash in comparison to Infernape. But how the tables have turned! :)



A MixApe will only have the edge on MixKen if he comes in on something with over 80 base Spe. If not, MixKen has every advantage in the world (higher Atk, higher SpA, a 130 BP STAB move and the promise of shooting up to almost 400 Speed at the end of the turn).



Gonna quote myself from the OP of the Blaziken thread:

MixBlaziken

---

Blaziken @ Life Orb
Rash
60 Atk / 252 SpA / 196 Spe

- Fire Blast
- Hi Jump Kick
- Hidden Power Grass / Electric
- Stone Edge

Here's the parallel calculations, showing how much standard MixApe (259 Atk / 307 SpA) deals to those Water types with his relevant moves.

Fire Blast + Grass Knot vs 252/0 Slowbro = 93.15% minimum
Close Combat + Close Combat vs 252/252+ Vaporeon = 78.02%
Grass Knot vs 252/0 Swampert = 105.94% minimum
Close Combat + Grass Knot vs 252/252+Def Suicune = 82.92% minimum
Fire Blast + Grass Knot vs 252/0 Gyarados = 64.72%

So as you can see, Blaziken deals more damage to Slowbro, Vaporeon and Gyarados, whilst dealing identical damage to Swampert. Infernape deals slightly more to Suicune. So with that in mind, there's no way you can claim Blaziken 'lacks the ability to damage Water types.'



Even if Blaziken did learn Nasty Plot, I'm sure he'd just use Swords Dance, Cheer Up or even Claw Sharpen 99 times out of 100 instead so 'meh.'

I used Infernape a whole ton during DPPt and grew to love him but I'd be hard-pressed to argue that he's generally better than Blaziken, now that Speed Boost and 130BP Hi Jump Kick are on the scene.

That...No point of repeating it.I wound't be able to expess it as good as lee did anyway...Ur just being ignorant.

[Sheaz]

"Ur" post didn't do anything to prove my point wrong. I said Nape was never a brilliant sweeper, so you just regurgitate information about how Ken can stop some water types? What the hell are you trying to say?

[SJCrew]

Sheaz, you are completely out of your mind. Infernape's best sets are all mixed sweeping offense. While he's forced to switch out as Starmie comes in on CC, Blaziken just goes again and destroys him with HP Grass. He has the same wallbreaking utility, but is harder to revenge and has a far, far easier time sweeping.

On paper, they're really not that different. You get Infernape with lower initial speed, but the same coverage, better offense, and the ability to boost speed every turn without doing anything. Basically, you come in on a wall, kill it/force it out, and then you get a completely better version of Infernape. You even have the option to run Protect to say "fuck you" to faster Pokemon that attempt to revenge, making him effectively faster than Infernape. If he runs Overheat/Stone Edge/Hi Jump Kick with Protect, he's not even sacrificing any important coverage, he's just a better Infernape.

You may claim that Infernape still has his niche in Scarf Uturn in leading, but the 4th gen metagame proven to us that the main attraction is always functionally better. As much as I hate to admit it, once Scizor got Bullet Punch, and Scarftar was popularized, they completely took over Weavile's spot on offensive teams. Even if Scarftar or Scizor can't cover his niche, they're just plain bulkier, multipurpose offensive threats.

The main attraction for Infernape is mixed sweeping and wallbreaking. Imagine that with with the same coverage, higher offense, and less potential to be revenge killed. Now you have Blaziken. Blaziken essentially outclasses Infernape.

What the hell are you trying to say?

Infernape's main counters were always bulky Water types. In fact, I even remember saying a while back that the easiest way to counter Infernape was to hit the "lol bulky Water" button. Then you have Starmie and Gengar serving as his main checks. You can't do that as easily with Blaziken because he can potentially 2HKO all of them unless they adapt with specialized sets to counter him (if such a thing were possible, with this beast hitting both sides of the spectrum much harder than Ape).

EDIT: Wait, how are you ragging on Blaziken with a Blaziken avatar? Traitor.

[Sheaz]

In my experience, Infernape's most effective set is the physical mix utilizing cc + u-turn + stone edge + overheat. This is great, as it's easy to force switches and then u-turn out to another counter. It keeps momentum on my side, and is certainly capable of late game cleaning and wall breaking, but I never use him to outright sweep.

Blaziken doesn't have the same versatility and unpredictability of Nape, and he can't u-turn out of counters. He is almost completely dependent on a speed boost to do much of anything, and this really hurts him with his fragility and mostly predictable moveset.

And yes, I say these things not out of hate, but out of realism. I really like Blaziken, but since it was announced he got speed boost the masses have thought it makes Infernape irrelevant. It's simply not true.

[sensible]

Originally Posted by Fat Sheaz

Blaziken doesn't have the same versatility and unpredictability of Nape, and he can't u-turn out of counters.

You're right. Blaziken can't u-turn out to its counters. It can Baton Pass out to its counters with its Speed Boosts lol Pwwned.

[Nastyjungle]

I feel that Infernape had its run in Gen 4.
It seems outclassed by Blaziken at this point, but I can still easily see Nape in Standard alongside Blaziken.

Both fill niches that the other can't, but now that Ken has Speed Boost coupled with its higher Attack, I just can't see Infernape filling a team spot quite as well as Blaziken can.

[ungulateman]

Infernape's main niche now is his suicude lead set and the fact he gets Nasty Plot.

I guess Game Freak tried to rebalance Infernape and Blaziken, and failed miserably. :/

[SJCrew]

Originally Posted by Fat Sheaz

In my experience, Infernape's most effective set is the physical mix utilizing cc + u-turn + stone edge + overheat. This is great, as it's easy to force switches and then u-turn out to another counter. It keeps momentum on my side, and is certainly capable of late game cleaning and wall breaking, but I never use him to outright sweep.

Blaziken doesn't have the same versatility and unpredictability of Nape, and he can't u-turn out of counters. He is almost completely dependent on a speed boost to do much of anything, and this really hurts him with his fragility and mostly predictable moveset.

And yes, I say these things not out of hate, but out of realism. I really like Blaziken, but since it was announced he got speed boost the masses have thought it makes Infernape irrelevant. It's simply not true.

The only reason Uturn is even necessary on Ape is because Starmie is weak to it and his other checks/counters prey on its lower speed or comparably low offense and force him to switch out (Pokemon you don't want to give any offensive momentum to, I might add). Both of Blaziken's offenses are higher and so is his speed, so he can screw over all the Gengar/Starmie/bulky Water switch-ins he wants. He doesn't have to predict on whether or not what's in front of him will switch out either because Speed Boost doesn't require him to set up.

[WarriorPrince]

Originally Posted by Fat sensible

You're right. Blaziken can't u-turn out to its counters. It can Baton Pass out to its counters with its Speed Boosts lol Pwwned.

Remember me Mr. PWNage. jk. lol. I am inclined to agree with this.

This is one thing about Speed Boost that will make Blaziken an excellent partner to Pokemon who cover his weaknesses. Breloom resists Ground and Water moves and would love the Speed passes from Blaziken. In theory it would be nice, not sure how it would actually work though.

Speed boosts works off of Blaziken's superior offensive and U-Turn ain't all bread and butter unless you using Scizor anyway.

Infernape will still probably be a better Lead, Scarfer, and Special Attacker though. I don't see Ape leaving OU. He still seems like a pretty solid Pokemon.

[Zoap]

On an interesting note:

If most Blaziken run High Jump Kick, then that makes switching in a Ghost that more dangerous for him. I mean here are the calcs based on the Bulky Ghosts of Gen 4:

Adamant Blaziken@Life Orb 252/168+ Rotom-H = 69.41%-81.91%
Adamant Blaziken@Life Orb 252/228+ Dusknoir = 57.48%-67.69%
Adamant Blaziken@Life Orb 252/252+ Spiritomb = 128.29%-151.97%

I encourage anyone do the same calcs on Gen 5 ghosts if possible.

What does this mean for Hi Jump Kick Blaziken? He has to be very wary of any Ghost on the other side, with taking a minimum of 23% from Hi Jump Kick Recoil(or 64% in Spiritomb's case). So why is HJK bad? Factor in Rocks his frailty and possible recoil for a wrong prediction and you could have an albeit fast but 65% Blaziken(best case scenario).What this could mean is that Blaziken will be more inclined to run Superpower which we all know is the same BP as CC but also has the negative effect of lowering his Attack. So Blaziken will have a tough choice to make if you ask me.

Ape on the other hand doesn't have to worry about his 120 CC doing up to 64% recoil or dropping his Attack just because the opponent is carrying a ghost.



A major advantage to Ape if I may say.

[SJCrew]

Originally Posted by Fat WarriorPrince

Remember me Mr. PWNage. jk. lol. I am inclined to agree with this.

This is one thing about Speed Boost that will make Blaziken an excellent partner to Pokemon who cover his weaknesses. Breloom resists Ground and Water moves and would love the Speed passes from Blaziken. In theory it would be nice, not sure how it would actually work though.

It'd be fucking awesome. This would probably even be suspect material if we were still talking Gen 4.

[Minjo Master]

Ken and Nape are clones, just like Ken and Ryu.

[DrunkRaccoon]

Originally Posted by Fat Zoap

On an interesting note:

If most Blaziken run High Jump Kick, then that makes switching in a Ghost that more dangerous for him. I mean here are the calcs based on the Bulky Ghosts of Gen 4:

Adamant Blaziken@Life Orb 252/168+ Rotom-H = 69.41%-81.91%
Adamant Blaziken@Life Orb 252/228+ Dusknoir = 57.48%-67.69%
Adamant Blaziken@Life Orb 252/252+ Spiritomb = 128.29%-151.97%

I encourage anyone do the same calcs on Gen 5 ghosts if possible.

What does this mean for Hi Jump Kick Blaziken? He has to be very wary of any Ghost on the other side, with taking a minimum of 23% from Hi Jump Kick Recoil(or 64% in Spiritomb's case). So why is HJK bad? Factor in Rocks his frailty and possible recoil for a wrong prediction and you could have an albeit fast but 65% Blaziken(best case scenario).What this could mean is that Blaziken will be more inclined to run Superpower which we all know is the same BP as CC but also has the negative effect of lowering his Attack. So Blaziken will have a tough choice to make if you ask me.

Ape on the other hand doesn't have to worry about his 120 CC doing up to 64% recoil or dropping his Attack just because the opponent is carrying a ghost.



A major advantage to Ape if I may say.

This rumor may have been disproved, but I was under the impression that you no longer take recoil damage with HJ/J Kick when you use it against a ghost.

[Wafflez]

Sheaz seriusly what are you talking about...When i say Blaiziken outspeeds Infernape i generally ment as a Sweeper/Mixed Wallbreaker.The only thing Infernape can do that Blaiziken cannot is probably Lead and a Scarfed set.But lets face it...Any 100+ base poke can slap on a Scarf and do that.Blaiziken has better Offensive stats,Bulk and after a single turn you are by far faster and your speed is about 400-ish...He also has a arguably better fighting attack that does not make you priority bait.The movepools are pretty much the same except U-turn and Stealth rock.U-turn was generally needed to get out of faster stuff who easily handled Nape such as Starmie,Flygon,Gengar,Latias etc.But Blaiziken dsn't have this problem.Why would you want to switch out if you can easily kill it anyway?And if you simply want to scout you always have Baton pass which sensible kindly pointed out which also makes something like Metagross happy.Another problem which Infernape always had a hard time over coming was Bulky waters which as Lee showed can all easily be overcomed...So how is your Infernape outclassing Blaiziken?Remember Spiritomb was once actually useful but then Rotom came in and took its niche.Its essentialy the same thing here.We have two pokes who both Wall break but one has a superior Attack,Bulk and tenchnically speed as well...So why would i want to use the other?

[rckp]

infernape is so good for owning the new bug/steel pokemon

[porky]

Originally Posted by Fat rckp

infernape is so good for owning the new bug/steel pokemon

Yes but its outclassed by blaziken

infernape is the blaziken of last gen :p

I guess it will have uses in lower tiers, because other than maybe a lead stealth rock user (espeon poops on it anyways) there is no niche for infernape

[Sheaz]

Sorry folks, but there's way too many things for me to respond to here. I really think Ken might is overhyped, and there's so much theorymon flying around in here it's ridiculous. When the 5th gen simulator is up and running, we'll see who is better. And I would be happy if it's Ken, but I personally don't think he'll be the terror you lot are making him out to be.

[porky]

just like shanderaa, and specsmence last gen.

Its all hype, but its useful cant really be refuted :P

[ShinyAzelf]

I think a Cheer Up set will be very viable, maybe even outclassing the Nasty Plot set. Nasty Plot doesn't boost Close Combat, while Cheer Up boosts every move int he set. I can't wait to try a set something like this:

Infernape @ Life Orb
Naive nature
60 Atk/196 Spe/252 Sp. Atk (I run 4 more Spe EVs just to outrun every standard set)
-Cheer Up
-Close Combat
-Fire Punch/Fire Blast
-Grass Knot

Maybe something like that? Use more Attack if you use Fire Punch.

[GtM]

Originally Posted by Fat -Manaphy--

Blaziken does that better thanks to Speed Boost, and higher attack to overcome the added Iron Fist damage.

Please tell me how Speed Boost makes a negative priority attack (Focus Punch) better. -_-

Infernape has a lot of coverage, and it can revenge more things immediately, making it easier for you to force out an opponent and score that crucial Focus Punch. The attack difference doesn't really matter, and you'll be able to force out a few more targets thanks to that nice initial speed.

[Wynought]

Blaziken outclasses Infernape? Meaning no one would bother using Ape when they could use Ken?

Alright. More Ape for me in UU. I don't think we should dump it in BL, as there are still viable checks for Ape in the current UU metagame. Like Azumarill, and Feraligatr.

[Colonel Darren]

I still see Infernape's Nasty Plot set being used. I really see, at this point, that the majority of Blazikens will be physical, and Infernapes special-based. They both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Blaziken, when given a turn free/safe switch, will be faster, and hit harder physically. Infernape has more immediate speed on the first turn, and has the option of going both Special or Physical more easily with respective boosts, making him more unpredictable.

[Ginku]

I have played against speed boost blaziken and i cant say it´s not blind hype. it´s definitely way more difficult to check than ape, can sweep easier and basically outclasses him, except for NP sets (which arent...over the top anway) and as a lead.

I predict infernape dropping into UU as i dont think leads + NP + ignorance will make the cutoff.

[sensible]

Infernape can Abuse Focus Punch with insane results due to iron fist. It does have Encore to be able to set up now. I'm not sure how much the damage difference is between ape and breloom, but Infernape has Fire type secondary STAB which could differentiate it from Breloom.

[Colonel Darren]

Originally Posted by Fat sensible

Infernape can Abuse Focus Punch with insane results due to iron fist. It does have Encore to be able to set up now. I'm not sure how much the damage difference is between ape and breloom, but Infernape has Fire type secondary STAB which could differentiate it from Breloom.

Problem is that Breloom can actually switch directly into some things like weaker Water attacks from Bulky Waters and -FORCE- a Substitute for itself with threat of Spore. All Infernape can do to set up a Sub is simply to either scare something off or Encore. Even then, that's risky.