Alakazam - Page 10

Cipher Admin Lovrina · Feb 2nd, 2012, 7:41:27 PM

I like Psychic/Shadow Ball/Hidden Power Fire/Focus Blast!

ThePillsburyDoughBoy · Mar 11th, 2012, 3:00:15 AM

I've think I've fallen in love with LO+Substitute Zam. It screws with offensive teams so much, once you get a free Sub its pretty much gg. Being able to outspeed Latios, Terrakion, and Starmie is pretty huge. Once you whittle them down (not necessary with Starmie), they all get OHKO'ed.

TBH I have found Life Orb the item of choice on Zam, the power difference is really significant, you lose out on a bunch of OHKO's/2HKO's with Focus Sash. IMO, the most important being losing out on the OHKO on Terrakion in Sand with 2 SR/1 spikes switch in. It does miss out on being a 100% revenge kill with sash, but it can't hit hard enough to be used outside of revenge killing.

Edit: Zam outspeeds Dragonite after a Dragon Dance o.o

tehy · Mar 11th, 2012, 9:53:39 PM

Well of course you lose a lot of power. The point is to be a revenge-killer once without having a scarf, and you can afford to 2hitko certain pokes because you survive a hit.

Jimera0 · Dec 12th, 2012, 11:52:00 PM

I know I've been out of the loop for a few months, but I just had a brainwave I had to share.

What do people think of Future Sight on Alakazam?

Hang on there don't disregard it yet! Allow me to explain... by talking about Doom Desire and Jirachi.

I'm sure some of you remember when there was a fair bit of talk speculating about the usefulness of Doom Desire on Choice Specs Jirachi. While initially the mechanics of the move seem incredibly undesirable (it doesn't do anything until two turns later and your opponent KNOWS its coming), it presented some interesting possibilities when thought on more. The biggest idea was that it could force a "no win" situation for an opponent if played properly; After Doom Desire is used the user can switch to a new Pokemon that is checked by Pokemon that Doom Desire destroys. If the opponent dares to switch in their check, they'll lose a Pokemon to doom desire. If they don't though, that Pokemon gets a free turn.

Ultimately though the idea proved mostly impractical, due to three things: Too few Pokemon were threatened by Doom Desire, making trapping difficult,the sheer loss in opportunity cost of using a Choice Specs Jirachi when it has MUCH better things to be doing, and the fact that Choice Specs were necessary to get the damage output needed but otherwise pair horribly with Doom Desire's mechanics.

Which is where Future Sight and Alakazam come in. While Future Sight's Psychic typing isn't great, it is better than the Steel type Doom Desire. And unlike Jirachi, Alakazam always has a move slot to spare. The only moves Alakazam NEEDS are Psychic/Psyshock, Focus Blast and Shadow Ball. The fourth move has always been of far, far less importance and served a niche role. Well, here's a new niche role Alakazam can fill with that 4th move. And unlike Jirachi, it doesn't even need Choice Specs to pull it off due to its higher special attack and the better typing of Future Sight.

What Future sight does for Alakazam is that it gives it something useful to do on those turns when you KNOW an opponent is going to switch but you can't be sure what they're going to switch to. Rather than take a blind guess, you can throw up a future sight. From there you can play to "trap" the opponent. This doesn't necessarily mean that you need to get your opponent to send in a Pokemon that is OHKO'd by Future Sight; honestly there aren't a lot of those. However the extra damage caused by future sight can turn what is usually a solid check to a Pokemon on your team into a victim, since it does damage in ADDITION to whatever other attack you called that turn.

For example, say you get in your Alakazam on an opponent's Conkeldurr. You know they're going to switch out, but you don't know if they'll go to their Blissey or their Scizor. So you use Future Sight, and your opponent sends out their Blissey. You can then switch to your Double Dance Terrakion as Blissey does whatever. Your opponent is now in a pickle, because if they keep in Blissey you'll easily KO it, but if they switch to their Scizor the extra 38%-44% Future Sight will do will allow Scizor to be KO'd by Close Combat after it switches in. Indeed, Scizor is something of a best case scenario for them, resisting Future Sight; almost anything they switch in is sure to be destroyed by the combined might of two powerful attacks on the same turn. It's even better if you have SR or Spikes on the field, since that turns possible KOs into Guaranteed ones.

This could be avoided by your opponent by switching out Blissey in a blind double switch, but doing so against Alakazam is risky as hell since NOTHING likes switching into the right attack of Alakazam's. In short, it gives you a massive strategic edge that can allow you punch holes in your opponents team. Oh, and I know people will point out the fact that Dark types are immune to Future Sight as a flaw, but the only common Dark type in OU is Tyranitar who is destroyed by fighting moves, meaning it'll have a hard time switching in to whatever Pokemon you have out when Future Sight is ready to hit.

TL:DR

Future Sight works on Alakazam by threatening massive damage from two different attacks on the same turn. While the opponent can switch in a resist to the move, the added damage can still allow you to punch holes in the opponent's team, or force them into un-winnable situations.. Unlike Jirachi, Alakazam can afford the moveslot and use a less restricting item, making it able to perform its normal role as well.

So now, I'll just wait for people to tell me what I've missed, since I'm sure I've missed something.

Lork · Dec 13th, 2012, 1:27:59 PM

i used future sight like that and you're right in that it forces the opposition's hand considerably. have you tried it on alakazam tho or are you just theorymonning?

Jimera0 · Dec 13th, 2012, 2:40:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Lork

i used future sight like that and you're right in that it forces the opposition's hand considerably. have you tried it on alakazam tho or are you just theorymonning?

Honestly, just theorymonning. I haven't laddered in months and don't have a current team I can just slap this on to test. Not to mention the idea hit around midnight and I'm utterly useless past 11 pm at battling.

Rather I was hoping the idea might inspire some other people to give it a try and I could just observe the results. I don't honestly really want to get back into competitive battling right now but I always thought the idea of Doom Desire was cool and when I realized that this was a likely much more effective version of it I just really wanted to know if it would actually work or not. Basically I just want to observe these days rather than participate myself.

So, anyone else tried it? I'd love to see some logs if anyone has any. I've always wanted to see a delayed hit strategy in use!

A Fhaol Bhig · Dec 15th, 2012, 6:15:18 PM

I'm not hugely experienced at this game but I can vouch for it's effectiveness when used correctly. The main thing is that many people go "lol" and switch to Tyrannitar for example. Which is good and all...except if you've switched in a fighting type, or you alakazam has Focus Blast, etc.

It also helps to turn many 2HKO's into OHKO's.

It's still a niche thing. But it does work.

Siggu · Dec 15th, 2012, 11:37:21 PM

Future Sight looks like a nice momentum grabbing move, as the mere possibility of being hit by a 120 BP move used by a pokémon with 135 SpA can 'force' the opponent into switching in the pokémon you want him to... or not

The Great Gastly · Dec 18th, 2012, 10:05:59 AM

I tried out Future Sight on the SashZam in my offensive team, and while it came in handy numerous times for piling on more damage, I always felt like I missed the coverage of HP Ice or the unexpectedness T-Wave... it sometimes came in handy for forcing checkmates and switches, but it feels very difficult to fully take advantage of.

Speaking of SashZam -- what do people usually use in the last slot? I usually use HP Ice or T-Wave, but I'm wondering if anyone uses anything different?

Hugin · Dec 18th, 2012, 11:38:12 AM

You can use Knock Off on the switch. It's not the best use of Zam, but it's viable if you already have a bunch of Fire and Ice on your team.

**AccidentalGreed** · Dec 18th, 2012, 7:13:48 PM

I usually find Shadow Ball unnecessary when I'm using a Psychic-type counter or Hidden Power Ice on Alakazam, so my usual Focus Sash Alakazam fares like this: Psychic / Psyshock | Focus Blast | Hidden Power Ice | Thunder Wave.

Thunder Wave is a very annoying an unexpected option coming from Alakazam, and Focus Sash pretty much allows it two free chances to either KO or paralyze something before going down. In dire situations such as when you're looking at a +3-6 Latias and your Jirachi is too severely weakened to paralyze it, or if Volcarona's getting you down, a simple wave of paralysis will do the trick. Try it out.

flea · Dec 19th, 2012, 12:38:57 PM

I've used alakazam on a few of my HO teams of middling success, and the LO Sub set is pretty much guaranteed to net a few kills or a sweep against any HO player who's stupid enough to let him get a sub up.

However, I think the most difficult thing is actually getting that sub and keeping it against players who know what they're doing. 95% of the time when you're facing a zam, it's the right play to just stay in and attack just in case the zam subs, because if it doesn't have a sub or a sash it's pretty much a sitting duck for any of the fast, powerful scarfers in today's meta. It's just not worth the risk of switching out just in case it subs.

Both sash and LO+sub have their merits, but I generally found sash to be useful in a much greater variety of battle scenarios. The sash set works as a great "last resort" revenge killer while still being able to clean up late-game pretty well

Feb 2nd, 2012, 7:41:27 PM	#226
Cipher Admin Lovrina Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,024	I like Psychic/Shadow Ball/Hidden Power Fire/Focus Blast! __________________ Trade Thread White Code: 2193 7255 6108

Mar 11th, 2012, 3:00:15 AM	#227
ThePillsburyDoughBoy Ttar by Doughboy Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 951 Mentor	I've think I've fallen in love with LO+Substitute Zam. It screws with offensive teams so much, once you get a free Sub its pretty much gg. Being able to outspeed Latios, Terrakion, and Starmie is pretty huge. Once you whittle them down (not necessary with Starmie), they all get OHKO'ed. TBH I have found Life Orb the item of choice on Zam, the power difference is really significant, you lose out on a bunch of OHKO's/2HKO's with Focus Sash. IMO, the most important being losing out on the OHKO on Terrakion in Sand with 2 SR/1 spikes switch in. It does miss out on being a 100% revenge kill with sash, but it can't hit hard enough to be used outside of revenge killing. Edit: Zam outspeeds Dragonite after a Dragon Dance o.o __________________ Check Out the 1 vs 1 Metagame: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3483807 Last edited by ThePillsburyDoughBoy; Mar 11th, 2012 at 2:31:40 PM.

Dec 12th, 2012, 11:52:00 PM	#229
Jimera0 I have to get to GOLDENROD for myEnemy ??????? Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 1,453 Canada Mentor	I know I've been out of the loop for a few months, but I just had a brainwave I had to share. What do people think of Future Sight on Alakazam? Hang on there don't disregard it yet! Allow me to explain... by talking about Doom Desire and Jirachi. I'm sure some of you remember when there was a fair bit of talk speculating about the usefulness of Doom Desire on Choice Specs Jirachi. While initially the mechanics of the move seem incredibly undesirable (it doesn't do anything until two turns later and your opponent KNOWS its coming), it presented some interesting possibilities when thought on more. The biggest idea was that it could force a "no win" situation for an opponent if played properly; After Doom Desire is used the user can switch to a new Pokemon that is checked by Pokemon that Doom Desire destroys. If the opponent dares to switch in their check, they'll lose a Pokemon to doom desire. If they don't though, that Pokemon gets a free turn. Ultimately though the idea proved mostly impractical, due to three things: Too few Pokemon were threatened by Doom Desire, making trapping difficult,the sheer loss in opportunity cost of using a Choice Specs Jirachi when it has MUCH better things to be doing, and the fact that Choice Specs were necessary to get the damage output needed but otherwise pair horribly with Doom Desire's mechanics. Which is where Future Sight and Alakazam come in. While Future Sight's Psychic typing isn't great, it is better than the Steel type Doom Desire. And unlike Jirachi, Alakazam always has a move slot to spare. The only moves Alakazam NEEDS are Psychic/Psyshock, Focus Blast and Shadow Ball. The fourth move has always been of far, far less importance and served a niche role. Well, here's a new niche role Alakazam can fill with that 4th move. And unlike Jirachi, it doesn't even need Choice Specs to pull it off due to its higher special attack and the better typing of Future Sight. What Future sight does for Alakazam is that it gives it something useful to do on those turns when you KNOW an opponent is going to switch but you can't be sure what they're going to switch to. Rather than take a blind guess, you can throw up a future sight. From there you can play to "trap" the opponent. This doesn't necessarily mean that you need to get your opponent to send in a Pokemon that is OHKO'd by Future Sight; honestly there aren't a lot of those. However the extra damage caused by future sight can turn what is usually a solid check to a Pokemon on your team into a victim, since it does damage in ADDITION to whatever other attack you called that turn. For example, say you get in your Alakazam on an opponent's Conkeldurr. You know they're going to switch out, but you don't know if they'll go to their Blissey or their Scizor. So you use Future Sight, and your opponent sends out their Blissey. You can then switch to your Double Dance Terrakion as Blissey does whatever. Your opponent is now in a pickle, because if they keep in Blissey you'll easily KO it, but if they switch to their Scizor the extra 38%-44% Future Sight will do will allow Scizor to be KO'd by Close Combat after it switches in. Indeed, Scizor is something of a best case scenario for them, resisting Future Sight; almost anything they switch in is sure to be destroyed by the combined might of two powerful attacks on the same turn. It's even better if you have SR or Spikes on the field, since that turns possible KOs into Guaranteed ones. This could be avoided by your opponent by switching out Blissey in a blind double switch, but doing so against Alakazam is risky as hell since NOTHING likes switching into the right attack of Alakazam's. In short, it gives you a massive strategic edge that can allow you punch holes in your opponents team. Oh, and I know people will point out the fact that Dark types are immune to Future Sight as a flaw, but the only common Dark type in OU is Tyranitar who is destroyed by fighting moves, meaning it'll have a hard time switching in to whatever Pokemon you have out when Future Sight is ready to hit. TL:DR Future Sight works on Alakazam by threatening massive damage from two different attacks on the same turn. While the opponent can switch in a resist to the move, the added damage can still allow you to punch holes in the opponent's team, or force them into un-winnable situations.. Unlike Jirachi, Alakazam can afford the moveslot and use a less restricting item, making it able to perform its normal role as well. So now, I'll just wait for people to tell me what I've missed, since I'm sure I've missed something. __________________ Credits for avatar go to my friend Seraphinu! My Scramble Challanges: Found here Current Challange: Hard Emerald Scramble No more video updates, sorry! The Gauntlet Challenge! Need help learning how to battle or getting into the Smogon community? Use the Mentorship Program!

Dec 15th, 2012, 6:15:18 PM	#232
A Fhaol Bhig Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 163	I'm not hugely experienced at this game but I can vouch for it's effectiveness when used correctly. The main thing is that many people go "lol" and switch to Tyrannitar for example. Which is good and all...except if you've switched in a fighting type, or you alakazam has Focus Blast, etc. It also helps to turn many 2HKO's into OHKO's. It's still a niche thing. But it does work. __________________ tá grain gheal an tsamhraidh ag damhsa, Siúil liomsa, a chara dhil, suas fà na hardàin, Ar thuras na hailleàcht’ is an ghileacht amuigh, A fhaol bhig… Little wolf… Tá tú ag imeacht ar shlí na fírinne

Dec 18th, 2012, 7:13:48 PM	#236
AccidentalGreed I'll bite off your kneecaps if I ever see a super long post or wall of text. Seriously. Moderator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 2,024 California	I usually find Shadow Ball unnecessary when I'm using a Psychic-type counter or Hidden Power Ice on Alakazam, so my usual Focus Sash Alakazam fares like this: Psychic / Psyshock \| Focus Blast \| Hidden Power Ice \| Thunder Wave. Thunder Wave is a very annoying an unexpected option coming from Alakazam, and Focus Sash pretty much allows it two free chances to either KO or paralyze something before going down. In dire situations such as when you're looking at a +3-6 Latias and your Jirachi is too severely weakened to paralyze it, or if Volcarona's getting you down, a simple wave of paralysis will do the trick. Try it out. __________________

Mar 11th, 2012, 9:53:39 PM	#228
tehy Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 1,153	Well of course you lose a lot of power. The point is to be a revenge-killer once without having a scarf, and you can afford to 2hitko certain pokes because you survive a hit.

Dec 13th, 2012, 1:27:59 PM	#230
Lork Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 229	i used future sight like that and you're right in that it forces the opposition's hand considerably. have you tried it on alakazam tho or are you just theorymonning?

Dec 15th, 2012, 11:37:21 PM	#233
Siggu Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 72 Buenos Aires, Argentina	Future Sight looks like a nice momentum grabbing move, as the mere possibility of being hit by a 120 BP move used by a pokémon with 135 SpA can 'force' the opponent into switching in the pokémon you want him to... or not

Dec 18th, 2012, 10:05:59 AM	#234
The Great Gastly Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 15	I tried out Future Sight on the SashZam in my offensive team, and while it came in handy numerous times for piling on more damage, I always felt like I missed the coverage of HP Ice or the unexpectedness T-Wave... it sometimes came in handy for forcing checkmates and switches, but it feels very difficult to fully take advantage of. Speaking of SashZam -- what do people usually use in the last slot? I usually use HP Ice or T-Wave, but I'm wondering if anyone uses anything different?

Dec 18th, 2012, 11:38:12 AM	#235
Hugin Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 104	You can use Knock Off on the switch. It's not the best use of Zam, but it's viable if you already have a bunch of Fire and Ice on your team.

Dec 19th, 2012, 12:38:57 PM	#237
flea Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 43 Suuuuuper Geeeenius	I've used alakazam on a few of my HO teams of middling success, and the LO Sub set is pretty much guaranteed to net a few kills or a sweep against any HO player who's stupid enough to let him get a sub up. However, I think the most difficult thing is actually getting that sub and keeping it against players who know what they're doing. 95% of the time when you're facing a zam, it's the right play to just stay in and attack just in case the zam subs, because if it doesn't have a sub or a sash it's pretty much a sitting duck for any of the fast, powerful scarfers in today's meta. It's just not worth the risk of switching out just in case it subs. Both sash and LO+sub have their merits, but I generally found sash to be useful in a much greater variety of battle scenarios. The sash set works as a great "last resort" revenge killer while still being able to clean up late-game pretty well __________________ I've got my ACME rewards card.