Ice, Ice, Baby - Hail Discussion

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Originally Posted by Fat Icy Vegeta

Tyranitar wants a word with both of them.

HP Fighting would like word with T-tar.

[Vaz]

I do not really see Hail becoming anywhere as good as the other weather effects. Perhaps on some Stall teams they might produce some great efficiency, but just like in 4th Gen, they will not be as good as other deployed strategies.

[Barilzar]

Originally Posted by Fat Icy Vegeta

Tyranitar wants a word with both of them.

Unless tyranitar is packin flamethrower or even blizzard, he really doesnt have shit on the snowman.

[XienZo]

Originally Posted by Fat Lich

Unless tyranitar is packin flamethrower or even blizzard, he really doesnt have shit on the snowman.

Uh, Stone Edge?

[Barilzar]

Originally Posted by Fat XienZo

Uh, Stone Edge?

Good point, but even then most Abomasnows have full speed evs to outspeed it.

Edit: Nvm, i guess Ttar users are kinda split in half. Some run full speed and others don't. But if you switch into ttar locked into eartquake, then...

[outofdashdwz]

Originally Posted by Fat Lich

Good point, but even then most Abomasnows have full speed evs to outspeed it.

Edit: Nvm, i guess Ttar users are kinda split in half. Some run full speed and others don't. But if you switch into ttar locked into eartquake, then...

I don't know what you're talking about, and I don't think you do either. Abomasnow in no way, shape or form, beats Tyranitar. Abomasnow does NOT "have full speed evs", as often its goal is to be SLOWER than Tyranitar to set up Hail. Even if it did outspeed, Wood Hammer will never KO without any boosts, while there is absolutely no chance Abomasnow will survive. You would need scarf to surprise revenge kill weakened Tyranitars, and if you're revenge killing with an Abomasnow, they'll know something's up lol. "Forgetting" the most common move in all of Tyranitar's sets (except the mixed ones) is just more proof you have no idea what you're talking about =/

[Cshadow]

Am I the only one here having trouble building a hail team? It seems like every other option I choose makes me weak to someone else (though I'm getting closer to what I feel should be on my team). Abomasnow, Heatran and Hitmontop haven't left the testing grounds. The ability to avoid Abomasnow being killed by Shanderra with a switch to Heatran is just way good to pass up. Out of the top ten Pokemon used in Dream World, Hitmontop checks three of them (Dory, Shandera, Tyranitar), which are three of the largest threats to a hail team.

Tentacruel is great for so many reasons, but then if feel like I have problems with Starmie.

Idk it just feels so difficult d:

EDIT: Abomasnow vs. Tyranitar always feels like a 50/50 chance of winning. With Substitute, Leech Seed, and Giga Drain, I often find myself beating him. Abomasnow does quite a bit of damage with Giga Drain in Sandstorm (42.1% - 49.7%). I don't recommend staying in on him though, as mentioned with the possibility of a Mixed Ttar and Stone Edge always looming.

[Barilzar]

Originally Posted by Fat outofdashdwz

I don't know what you're talking about, and I don't think you do either. Abomasnow in no way, shape or form, beats Tyranitar. Abomasnow does NOT "have full speed evs", as often its goal is to be SLOWER than Tyranitar to set up Hail. Even if it did outspeed, Wood Hammer will never KO without any boosts, while there is absolutely no chance Abomasnow will survive. You would need scarf to surprise revenge kill weakened Tyranitars, and if you're revenge killing with an Abomasnow, they'll know something's up lol. "Forgetting" the most common move in all of Tyranitar's sets (except the mixed ones) is just more proof you have no idea what you're talking about =/

Thats if your running Abomasnow as your lead dumbass.

[Gabe]

Originally Posted by Fat Lich

Thats if your running Abomasnow as your lead dumbass.

You don't have to call him names if he's correcting you.

[Barilzar]

Originally Posted by Fat Gabe

You don't have to call him names if he's correcting you.

Sure i can, makes me feel cool.

[Sharpteeth]

Originally Posted by Fat Cshadow

Am I the only one here having trouble building a hail team? It seems like every other option I choose makes me weak to someone else (though I'm getting closer to what I feel should be on my team). Abomasnow, Heatran and Hitmontop haven't left the testing grounds. The ability to avoid Abomasnow being killed by Shanderra with a switch to Heatran is just way good to pass up. Out of the top ten Pokemon used in Dream World, Hitmontop checks three of them (Dory, Shandera, Tyranitar), which are three of the largest threats to a hail team.

Tentacruel is great for so many reasons, but then if feel like I have problems with Starmie.

Idk it just feels so difficult d:

EDIT: Abomasnow vs. Tyranitar always feels like a 50/50 chance of winning. With Substitute, Leech Seed, and Giga Drain, I often find myself beating him. Abomasnow does quite a bit of damage with Giga Drain in Sandstorm (42.1% - 49.7%). I don't recommend staying in on him though, as mentioned with the possibility of a Mixed Ttar and Stone Edge always looming.

Rankurusu, with its bulk and resistance to Fighting + hail immunity would be a decenc thoice, especially with its good synergy with Hitmontop and Heatran. Actually, both Rankurusu and Shindora are good on Hail teams to cover the gigantic Fighting weakness.

[Barilzar]

There is always Spiritomb as well.

[AquaTeamV3]

Got a quick question. When you run a hail team in Gen V, is it smarter to lead with Abomasnow or to simply choose another lead and bring him out at a different time? I think Sableye could make a good hail lead should the latter be true.

[Seth Vilo]

This has been mentioned before, but I love to have a random Hail user on my team. I got incredibly angry at running into one DrizzleToad team after another, as well as sandstorm+Doryuuzu. On a random whim, I threw Kyurem onto my team with LO, 3 offensive moves, and Hail. All of a sudden, weather teams were failing. I found that if my opponent sees that I don't have an auto-weather inducer, they're a LOT less careful with their Hippowdon, Tyranitar, Politoed, or Ninetales. Once the inducer is gone, in comes Kyurem to use Hail and completely mess up their strategy; no longer is Kingdra that threatening with Super-STAB Hydro Pump and Swift Swim, or is Doryuuzu as fast a a bullet. I'm sure there are far more efficient Pokemon to randomly run Hail on, since Kyurem is weak to common Rock moves, and neutral to Fire from Sunny Day teams. I thought of doing Sunny Day on Erufuun just to make sure it happens, but that's a waste of Erufuun's precious moveslots most of the time, and I'm left helpless against Ninetales abusers. Hail is slim as ever, so it's most effective as anti-weather. I'm just throwing in my 2 cents, since this seemed like the appropriate thread.

[Juukka]

Fairly new to competitive Pokemon, and figured I'd try an existing strategy in Gen V to help me break into the metagame. So I picked hail, and have been working on it ever since. Got to 1200 rating last week, so it's getting better.

My biggest issues for hail are Heatran, Tyrannitar, and Roopushin... I added Mamoswine to my roster to add a physical attacker but he can't switch in on any of them. Jynx does a good job on Roopushin with Psychic but again only as a revenge kill.

Tyranitar is such a problem. Good players that maneuver him around and cancel out my Hail always have success because I simply can't switch around so much (with or without hazards) and risk losing my two defensive Pokes (Magnezone and Hariyama).

However, my defensive MVP is Hariyama, and I'll post the version I'm using:


Hariyama@Leftovers
Careful
Thick Fat
124 HP; 252 Def; 124 Sp.Def
Knock Off/Whirlwind
Force Palm
Sleep Talk
Rest

Got this build from the last hail team posted in the Gen IV UU RMT and modified it slightly. This guy is an absolute beast. Takes fire type attacks like nobodies business. Can force out unwanted enemies, and stall out Heatran and Tyrannitar. However physical Tyrannitars can out muscle him and if the opposing team finds a way to take this guy down my team is really in trouble.

However, I don't even have to reveal some of my Blizzard sweepers with this guy around, he's an all purpose pivot.

EDIT: Okay great he is on the OP. Didn't see it the first time. May have to try out the set suggested.

[Cshadow]

Hariyama is already is in the OP d:

[Rayquaza_]

Originally Posted by Fat Seth Vilo

This has been mentioned before, but I love to have a random Hail user on my team. I got incredibly angry at running into one DrizzleToad team after another, as well as sandstorm+Doryuuzu. On a random whim, I threw Kyurem onto my team with LO, 3 offensive moves, and Hail. All of a sudden, weather teams were failing. I found that if my opponent sees that I don't have an auto-weather inducer, they're a LOT less careful with their Hippowdon, Tyranitar, Politoed, or Ninetales. Once the inducer is gone, in comes Kyurem to use Hail and completely mess up their strategy; no longer is Kingdra that threatening with Super-STAB Hydro Pump and Swift Swim, or is Doryuuzu as fast a a bullet. I'm sure there are far more efficient Pokemon to randomly run Hail on, since Kyurem is weak to common Rock moves, and neutral to Fire from Sunny Day teams. I thought of doing Sunny Day on Erufuun just to make sure it happens, but that's a waste of Erufuun's precious moveslots most of the time, and I'm left helpless against Ninetales abusers. Hail is slim as ever, so it's most effective as anti-weather. I'm just throwing in my 2 cents, since this seemed like the appropriate thread.

Froslass is quite reliable since it gets Snow Cloak, is immune to Fighting and has high speed, though it's somewhat predictable if your opponent sees that you're running many Blizzard users.
Burungel is slower and has moveslot issues, but resists both water and fire.

Suicune and Swampert are 100% unexpected and work amazingly well, just don't use them as walls, but rather as a transition+weather setup pokemon (kinda like Raind Dance Bronzong).

Pretty much anything with a decent base speed that learns Hail can completely screw up Doryuzuu and those pokemon that rely on weather speed boosting abilities.
In Ubers I think Arceus is hands down the best one at this job.

Kyurem does a good job at luring and killing Doryuzu. Mole still outspeeds Kyurem after Frozen World's speed drop but it doesn't after Hail replaces Sandstorm.

Balloon Tentacruel with Hail royally screws Doryuzu if it comes into EQ but it has to watch for its other attacks. It can also switch into most special rain and sun sweepers with ease.

[TorchicBlaziken]

Originally Posted by Fat Cshadow

Steel Pokemon are one of the biggest threats to a hail team, resisting their impressive STAB and retaliating their own STAB Meteor Mash/Bullet Punch/Iron Head. With our own little piece of Roswell, New Mexico, we have an answer to the Steel menace. Magnezone boasts impressive resistances and few weaknesses (though, the Fighting and Fire weaknesses shared with all the other Ice-types may pose a problem) and the ability to trap the dangerous Steel opposition. With Pokemon like Kyurem drawing them in left and right, Magnezone will have little trouble finding himself an opportunity to switch in an eliminate a threat.


Trait: Magnet Pull
EVs: 4 Hp/ 252 SAtk/ 252 Spd
Timid Nature (-Atk, +Spd)
- Volt Change
- Thunder Bolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Flash Cannon

The old 4th generation standard Choice Scarf set with Volt Change over the newly nerfed Explosion, allowing for more defensive plays and way to scout the opponents best switch in to Magnezone. A Substitute set, again, was not recommended due to it cancelling out leftovers recovery, leaving Magnezone with less and less health as he substitutes down. Magnezone however, like Heatran, can make use of a Balloon along with Volt Change, giving him a Ground immunity and a way to scout the opponents team.

I recommend Magneton because it has more defenses with Evolution Stone, and gets to ditch Flash Cannon for Magnet Rise, eliminating its Ground weakness. A Timid HP Fire Magneton with 252 EVs in Special Attack and 252 EVs in Speed only has 20 Special Attack points less than a Timid HP Fire Magnezone. The same Magneton has 22 more Speed than a non-Choice Scarfed Timid HP Fire Magnezone. A Modest HP Fire Magneton with 252 EVs in Special Attack and 252 EVs in Speed has 22 more Special Attack than a Timid HP Fire Magnezone, and only 2 less speed than a non-Choice Scarfed Timid HP Fire Magnezone.

Magnezone gets more HP and Choice Scarf, but Magneton gets Magnet Rise and more defenses. You may want to invest in HP for Magneton.

A Timid HP Fire Magneton with Pre-Evolution Stone, with no investment in Defenses, has 339 Def and 264 Sp Def. A Timid HP Fire Magnezone, with no investment in Defenses, has 266 Def and 216 Sp Def.

A Timid HP Fire Magnezone with no investment in HP has 281 HP. 282 if the 4 leftover EVs are invested in HP. A Magneton with these same stats has 241 HP and 242 HP with 4 points of investment. This Magneton needs to invest 160 EVs into HP in order to reach the same in HP as the Magnezone that doesn't invest in HP at all. A Timid Magneton has 60 less Special Attack than a Timid HP Fire Magnezone with 252 Sp. Atk and Speed EVs if it sacrifices Special Attack, and 22 less Speed if it sacrifices that. For a Modest Magneton, the differences are 31 and 41, respectively.

A Magneton that invests 252 EVs in HP has 304 HP.

So maybe you shouldn't invest that much in HP just to meet Magnezone's.

I'd go with Modest for Magneton.

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I can't see Hail being that useful in OU, but it could be good in lower tiers. This is based off the fact that, chances are, Hippowdon, Politoed, Tyranitar and Ninetales will end up OU. This leaves Abomasnow, Vulpix and Hippopotas (and Snover) as the auto-weathers in UU and below, where Abomasnow really begins to stand out more, and gives Hail the advantage over other weathers of having the Pokemon that induces the weather being far more competent. And this is going forward quite a bit too, but it's also possible that Snover could end up as the only auto-weather in an even lower tier, which again, gives Hail a massive bonus against the other weathers.

So perhaps Hail may not be popular in OU, but it could be a promising style of game play in some of the other metagames, when we get to them.

[CanadiEntei]

My favorite Ice Pokemon are Articuno, Cloyster, Glaceon, Baibanira, Jynx, Lapras, and Dewgong. But I've only used Glaceon and Baibanira on PO thus far. Don't like Hail "teams" as well. But I do enjoy Hail on occasion.

Glaceon @ Rugged Helmet
Bold (252 Def, 252 HP, 6 ?)

#1: Shadow Ball/Wish, Ice beam, Hidden Power (Psychic or Fire), Heal Bell
#2: Barrier, Baton Pass, Ice Peam, Roar/Hail

Glaceon is rather bulky as is. I survived a Machamp Dynamic Punch with around 30% HP left, pre-Barrier, pre-confusion. And did Rugged Helmet damage to Machamp. I'd also rather take the time to waste a slot on Hail than waste a slot on an Abomasnow. An Ice/Poison would really help things in my opinion. But alas.

Heck, an Ice with Flash Fire or Solid Rock (heh heh, Ice/Rock) or some immunity ability would be n-ice.

Guts ability is nice to have. Like a Flareon (Nitro Charge + Baton Pass).

Balloon Cloyster with Rapid Spin...
Dark Jewel Unburden Drifblim with Sucker Punch & Weather Ball...

[RWB]

I've tried my hand at a hail team. It has had some success, beating two sandstorm, two rain teams, and one sun team(while losing against one of each). As a minor funny thing, it took out a team full of Arceuses.

Abomasnow (Frosty)
Item: Leftovers- I know this may not be that good considering the chandelier...
Trait: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 HP/ 252 Def/ 252 SpD
Bold
- Hidden Power Fire
- Toxic
- Leech Seed
- Protect

Hidden Power is for Forretress and Nattorei. In a pinch, it can also defeat non-sub Erufuun most of the time.
Most people underestimate Abomasnow's bulk allowing me to get both Leech seed and toxic(with a Protect thrown in in between to gets some health back).

As they usually either switch in their weather user or
keep using the same attack, I send in...

Tentacruel(Jellybelly)
Trait: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252 Hp/ 120 Def/ 136 SDef
Calm
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic Spikes
- Boil Over
- Blizzard

Blizzard may seem an odd choice, but surprisingly many people send in Grass types, or Dragons to set up on me. Anyway, Tentacruel sets up Toxic Spikes and Rapid spins away stealth rock.

Sazandora(Hydraulic)
Item: Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 Hp/ 252 SpA/ 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
- Surf
- Dark Pulse

Once Tentacruel is done, sending in this guy tends to be a good idea- by now, most people are trying a thunder or ground attack- Tentacruel's bulk tends to draw out something capable of that. Sazandora moves usually has at least one super effective move to destroy them with. Life Orb would destroy Sazandora too quick, and while Choice Specs are powerful, most people love to send in a type weak to one of my other moves- and surprisingly I can outspeed them most of the time.

Rankurusu(Stinker)
Item: Leftovers
Trait: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 Hp / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Recover
- Psycho Shock/Psychic
- Calm Mind
- Focus Blast

Surprisingly devastating- it comes in against a special attacker, gets in a calm mind, and while they switch out you can either recover or calm mind again. It can also devastate Fighting mons.

Morobareru(Champoison)
Item: Leftovers
Trait: Regeneration
EVs: 252 Hp / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Calm Nature
Spore
Toxic
Sludge Bomb/Venom Shock
Giga Drain

Takes hits like a pro and can either Spore or Toxic the enemy. Still a bit sceptic on my moveset- with Toxic Spikes in effect, neither one really gets that much use, though Spore is very useful against mons that can't be hit by the Toxic Spikes. Perhaps Substitute or Protect instead of Toxic?
Opting for Venom Shock is not a bad idea- if you are paranoid about the opponent not being toxic spiked, go with Sludge Bomb. Giga Drain is there to abuse Moro's bulk even more. Does Clear Smog remove subs?

Last, but not least- StallRein

Walrein(Wallace- named after the Fire Emblem Character)
Trait: Ice Body
EVs: 220 HP/ 244 Def/ 44 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Protect
- Substitute
- Roar
- Blizzard

You all know how this guys works. ;)

[Barilzar]

I just played you RWB and yes your team is rather good. Not a fan of Sazando but meh, I would probably switch him out for maybe a balloon heatran, that way you have options between a couple different leads.

[RWB]

Thanks! Yeah, that may be a good idea. I do lack a dragon resist as well...


Anyway, what did you call yourself while fighting? I went by Rille(a nickname I got in school)...

Just so I know which one of my foes you were. I remember a Weavile...

[Barilzar]

Originally Posted by Fat RWB

Thanks! Yeah, that may be a good idea. I do lack a dragon resist as well...


Anyway, what did you call yourself while fighting? I went by Rille(a nickname I got in school)...

Just so I know which one of my foes you were. I remember a Weavile...

Im under the name Bieber. lol

I was runnin a different then whats in my sig. It was a venomoth baton passing boosts to lickilicky i believe.

[RWB]

Yup! But Weavy was stil there I believe! ...No, that may have been Roy Mullis...