(Quality Control) Sableye (BW2 Revamp)-WIP

[tehy]

*approved by PK Gaming*

I don't plan to do serious work on this for a good bit (1-2 weeks), so what I thought I'd do is post the old stuff skeletonized, post some stuff I think needs to be done, then get feedback on it all. I'll be playtesting sporadically and hopefully others will be too *fingers crossed*.

Also Dashes instead of bullet points, if that's a problem I guess I can change it. I don't like 'prankster' as a set name, although it's pretty accurate.

Previous analysis here:http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/sableye/ou


FIRST ANALYSIS. Be infinitely gentle with me.
QC 0/3, GP 0/2

[Overview]

-Terrible Stats
-Prankster is Beast for it, has the movepool to abuse it too
-Typing pretty good
-Can't switch into much, though.


name: Standard
move 1: Will-o-Wisp
move 2: Recover
move 3: Taunt
move 4: Night Shade / Foul Play / Confuse Ray
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

-Burns stuff with WoW, cripples physical attackers and wears down stallmons
-Recover heals, which is always fun to have
-Taunt rejects setup and breaks stall good. Counters foe taunts
-Night Shade deals consistent damage
-Foul Play smashes physical attackers
-Confuse Ray+priority recover=painful stalling. Cripples stuff even harder.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

-Max Phys.D for walling Physical threats if balanced is not your thing
-Spinblocks
-If you want mad damages go Toxic. Watch out for immunes;plus that kind of shrinks its niche.
-Mean Look traps foolish pokemon sableye beats so you can 1v1 them down
-Spin support, or at the very least Tspikes absorb support. Tenta, forry, starmie.

name: Trick
move 1: Trick
move 2: Recover
move 3: Taunt
move 4: Will-o-Wisp / Night Shade / Toxic
item: Iron Ball/Lagging Tail
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

-Prankster Trick basically ignores Iron Ball/Lagging Tail's downsides
-Recover keeps you healthy.
-Taunt stops other setup, Taunt, and owns stall, like the first set. Forces foe to switch out of walls that don't mind the item to sweepers that do.
-WoW is still a great move on Sable.
-Night Shade if you want to be able to hurt stuff
-Toxic a good option on any defensive pokemon;Prankster Trick does a number on offense, so you can have Toxic to do a number on stall.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

(Note:This whole thing has serious issues.)
-Works well with haters of Alaka and Gengar, like Conk.
-Confuse Ray lets you set up more easily
-Iron Ball cripples fliers and levitators;Lando-i and SDscor love this.
-Lagging Tail makes them always go last, slow pokemon like Gastro and Donphan love this.

name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Recover
move 3: Shadow Ball / Dark Pulse
move 4: Will-o-Wisp / Hidden Power Fighting
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

-Sweeper Sableye, wut wut
-Calm Mind up with Recover healing you up.
-Try to have full health when you start Cming so you don't insta-die
-Choose either STAB move.
-WoW with Dark Pulse because it hits everything, Shadow Ball with Hp fight, so Normals don't wall you too hard. (Even though the slashes are off in this case.)

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

-Ev Spread takes Physical Hits because you'll have SpD in plenty
-Bold Nature is the same
-Toxic>WoW because of more damage, but Physical Attackers go
-Hazard support to achieve Kos

[OTHER OPTIONS]

-Fake Out and Shadow Sneak are sweet prio but... base 75 Atk.
-Prio sunny day/rain dance but Tornadus>him at this in rain and Heatran>him at this in sun.
-Prio sub, but it's not hard to break one of his subs due to bad stats. Why bother?
-Keen Eye is basically worthless and Prankster is godly;don't bother.

[CHECKS AND COUNTERS]

-Faster Pranksters with Taunt
-Any uncrippled attacker can usually OHKO or 2hko it
-Guts Hera DGAF and stomps your face off
-Heatran mostly walls both sets
-PZN heal Gliscor and Breloom also do this.


So, i'm going to overhaul all of this, a LOT. But first, i'd like to get your opinions on a few things:

Should Foul Play or Night Shade be the first slash on the standard set?
Should the CM set even have attacks, or is Taunt/WoW/Cm/Recover better?
Is the CM set even worth mentioning outside of OO?
Is a Swagger set a la Liepard viable at all in the OU meta?
Is Confuse Ray even worth a slash?
How much should we talk about a max SpD spread? OO? AC? Main Evs?
Should Lagging Tail or Iron Ball be slashed first on the Trick set?
Is snarl even viable on sableye? (If only to gladden ginga's day?

And just give ideas and such from using Sableye, how he's worked for you, what kind of teams he works on, beats, etc. I know a lot of this, having used him a great deal (Not the Trick or Cm sets), but it'd be nice to get some feedback.

Especially for anyone who used Trick/CM.

Snarl Logs:
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-18734899
http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-ou-18768132 (This one's not a replay, sorry. But it's good.)
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-18790298 Specs Sable>U
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-19023001 (Against a low-rank player with a really high-rank alt. Snarl Sable sweeps if not for the hax.)
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-19024815
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-19029439 (A lot of rage here, but Snarleye would've done very well if he managed to get in, and if he hadn't been early game haxed. Too bad he quit.)
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-19031453 (Smashpass SMASHED)
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-19184664 (Stall? Stalled OUT.)

[ginganinja]

No Snarl Mention on Sableye makes me v. sad. Sure, its not doing the most AMAZING damage, but thats not the point, when Sableye often lures in special sweepers, a snarl on the switch cripples the damage output, letting you follow up with a WoW and Recover Stall.

[jc104]

I don't have much experience with them, but I can't really say I rate the CM set or the Trick set that highly, especially the CM set. The Trick set could probably just go in AC of the standard set, since it is rather similar, and the CM set to OO.

If the CM set had 5 moves I could see it working, but without Will-o-Wisp to take on physical attackers and taunt to take on opposing phazers/taunters/status users/set-up sweepers, I can't see it surviving very long. And without any attacks, Sableye ends up like Agility Deo-D, which we rejected (yes, I know it's banned now). It's just begging to be critted/hit by secondary effects and is often totally walled (although at least it blocks spin, I suppose).

[tehy]

I'd argue it's better than Deo-D, though, because it can boost one of its defenses and hurt stuff (While sort of boosting the other defense with WoW)

Deo-D is basically unable to do one of the things that make it perfect, either lacking defense boosting, or damage. Or it lacks Recover/Agility/taunt.

It is bait for crits/ Scalds though, i'll give you that.

Edit: I'll take it off if everyone wants, but it's just kind of tantalizing because it has that potential to just go "doesn't matter CM" and just sweep. I'm talking about a set with WoW/Taunt/Recover/CM, not the listed one.

As for snarl, no one said AC that I can see but sure. I may even test this out today.

[BKC]

i really don't like the cm set for the reasons jc mentioned.

snarl doesn't deserve a mention in AC, it deserves a slash in with foul play & night shade (the former of which should be the first option). it is very legit.

[alexwolf]

CM is OO material and Snarl is slash-worthy. However, i don't agree with slashing Night Shade first, as Foul Play deals better damage on Pokemon that usually switch into Sableye, such as Latios, Thundurus-T, Starmie, Tornadus, Xatu, Espeon, LO Gengar, and Volcarona. It also lets Sableye deal much better with Reuniclus and Alakazam, which Night Shade longer to kill and makes Sableye more prone to losing 'cause of SpD drops. The only real reason to use Night Shade is for Heatran and Keldeo, and maybe Sub Hydreigon (which is very rare), but that's it.

So the last slot should look like this:

Foul Play / Night Shade / Snarl

[tehy]

Actually, Night Shade is better for Volca if I recall, but basically everything else you said is my ladder experience. (Also Darmanitan, Lumnite, and Victini. And burned stuff that thinks it can SD)

Also lets you mess up Celebi.

Testing Snarl, but I already missed one the first battle.

Edit: Yeah, the key is it 2hitkos after SR, whereas foul play generally does not. But otherwise you were dead on, DW.

Also, snarl lets my SpD Sable tank a Hydro Pump from non-specs/LO keldeo, snarl it, and recover stall it.

And arcticblast ragequit before I could see how it did against what I believe was a Specs Keldeo.

I am using SpD sable;I find the balanced spread to be eminently pointless, sacrificing what i believe to be one of its best niches-spinblocking. Max SpD lets it tank so much more. It struggles a little bit with super-strong physical attackers, i'll admit, and has more trouble spinblocking donphan, but the benefits make up for it IMO. Like i was saying, i'm not working on this yet, just collecting feedback.

[alexwolf]

Yeah, you are right Night Shade is better for Volcarona as it does more damage than Foul Play and also does not make contact, avoiding any potential burns due to Flame Body. For some reason i thought that Volcarona's Attack stat was higher.

[Arcticblast]

Originally Posted by Fat tehy

And arcticblast ragequit before I could see how it did against what I believe was a Specs Keldeo.

It was Scarf, and HEY D:<

Anyway, what happened to the specially defensive spread you were praising so much? You said the balanced EV spread was terrible, but you're still using it.

[tehy]

So I just wanted to post to ask about Trick Sableye, if anyone's got any experience with it. I'm about to use it on my stall team instead of just regular sable, but I wonder if this is the best way to use it.

I also had a massively weird idea of Specs Gothitelle with HP ground, Thunderbolt, Grass Knot, and Psychic, paired with Snarl Sableye. That basically takes out almost anything snarl sableye can't handle by hitting it on the switch-in with stuff, and might let it basically semi-sweep teams. But it's overspecific support and 2 tough special attackers can take Sableye down. (Also, or CM sableye.)

This brings me to another point:I think snarl sableye>CM sableye. CM sableye is permanent but Snarl sableye basically accomplishes a lot of that same 'setup' while also having more utility, the ability to hurt stuff, etc.

Finally, I want to talk about Heal Bell support, because Sableye, especially max SpD, can 1v1 bulky waters hard, but hates status.

Edit: Yeah, i've been doing that. I also want to mention Blissey. They both appreciate the hell out of burned physical attackers and can tank special attacks. What i really want to do is test out Heal Bell+Snarl Sableye, because snarl sable basically stomps bulky waters, but as with any sableye really hates burn.

I feel the exact same way about Trick sableye but I don't really even know how to use him. I tried the other day and I was just like... ugh, Sableye really lures in very few offensive pokemon from a competent opponent well enough to trick them consistently.

[BKC]

sdef cele tanks rotomw & scald mons while providing heal bell support.

trick sableye is gimmicky and unreliable

[ginganinja]

Quick summery of points

name: Standard
move 1: Will-o-Wisp
move 2: Recover
move 3: Taunt
move 4: Foul Play / Night Shade / Snarl

Should be how it looks. Snarl can be highier, I don't really care, but it deserves a slash so yea.

-AC Confuse Ray in Standard Set. Personally I think its still pretty shit and wouldn't be opposed to an OO mention but whatever. So long as its not main slash I am reasonably happy.

-Remove Trick set
-Remove CM set

The Calm Mind set lacks Taunt, which means anything with Toxic is going to rape you. You are also vulnerable to critical hits. Its just shit, and if you run Taunt on the set than you lack a way to deal damage which means u will eventually get critically hitted and die.

Trick set is pretty shit. Its not bad for like, shutting down a revenge killer with an Iron Ball, but outside of that its pretty limited. You are also losing a damage move which isn't MASSIVE but still pretty annoying sometimes. Like idk, it just seems pretty gimmicky and people bring lots of things in on Sableye so its hard to cripple the mon you really want.

I think this covered mostly everything.

[tehy]

Firstly:

Can I get an AMEN! (Because I don't like either of these sets either.)

To be fair, I envision the CM set without any attacks at all, just CM over the attacking move. Secondly, yeah, it's much harder to lure in your specific targets with sableye.

Thirdly, I want Night Shade as the last option. Snarl actually deals with a lot of the stuff Night Shade does, and while Night Shade does more damage to them on the switch-in, Snarl lets Sableye wall all of that stuff.

I prefer to just leave Confuse Ray out of it IMO. Apart from the fact that the aforementioned Snarl+WoW lets you basically stop anything on the switch, I am a huge hater of Confusion. It's just an invitation to let the RNG decide the game for you.

edit: I'll include the EV spread in AC I suppose, but keep in mind that being 2hitko'd by something you can recover in the face in isn't that big a deal.

As for everything I mention, yeah, that's all stuff I plan to talk about.

Come to think of it, what exactly does the old EV spread do? It never really explains in the analysis itself.

[Icecream]

I have a few suggestions. So you might want to mention sun support, with it, sableye becomes the best spin blocker in OU. Not even starmie can break past it. Also mention forretress as a partner for the aforementioned reason and maybe heatran to take fire attacks and such.

Here's a suggested ev spread: 248 HP / 132 Def / 128 SpD it lets you avoid the 2HKO from a burned CB tyranitar crunch, while being able to outstall LO starmie in the sun.

Maybe mention how Snarl lets you stall alakazam and lati@s, foul play destroys non-resistant physical attackers, and night shade for volcarona and fighting-types.

So, yeah. I'm not QC or anything so you don't have to take my suggestions seriously. I just used sableye a lot and I think these are some needed changes.

[Lavos Spawn]

snarl is basically the best 4th move for sableye, instead of doing big damage to the physical attackers that are already burnt it shits on the most common switch-ins to sableye, which are all special attackers like keldeo and thundurus-t. it's really a brilliant move on sab that multiplies its longevity tenfold, and i'm surprised it doesn't see more use. i would like it slashed up as high priority as possible.

gee who came up with snarl sableye anyways cough cough

[alexwolf]

Lol Lavos bragging once more...

Anyway, i am fine with Snarl getting slashed first as it is really useful.

[Lavos Spawn]

spread the word

i think the set should be like this:

name: Standard
move 1: Will-O-Wisp
move 2: Recover
move 3: Taunt
move 4: Snarl / Foul Play / Night Shade

AC: Confuse Ray, Toxic, Trick, Mean Look (in order of importance)

drop the trick set, give it an ac mention in the support set but emphasize why it really isn't ideal.

drop the calm mind set entirely. there is no way that in this metagame, sableye is going to get away with a calm mind sweep. sab isn't a sweeper, it's a utility prankster piece of shit meant to instill fear first, actually do something second.

[tehy]

Actually, I still prefer Foul Play as a first slash, although Snarl beats a lot of the same stuff Foul Play does so I'm finding it kind of hard to justify it.

The main reason, though, would be that Foul Play actually trashes most of the special attackers that switch in on Sableye, which really limits their ability to come in and check Sableye once again. I'm talking about any of the special attackers weak to it. Snarl is amazing because you hit them on the switch-in and boom;they can't really do much to you, but Foul Play just hits them once and they're... like, at 40-30%, which depending on your residuals is nearly dead or even unable to come in on WoW. Hit them twice and they're flat gone. It also is great to smash Espeon, since you want that dead before it burns/taunts you with your own attacks, as well as Darmanitan and Lumnite. (After SR+Foul Play, darmanitan is usually dead, and Lumnite is usually dead after another round of rocks.) And if something like Toxicroak or Lucario decided to SD again on you, Foul Play really makes them pay for it. Also, if you've WoW'd one of these special attackers on the switch, and you then Foul Play them, and had rocks up...these guys are on their last legs.

As I recall thundurus-T takes a respectable amount from it, as does Landorus-I (Even with max SpD, you need to snarl it on the switch and snarl it again to kill it.)

Also, snarl heavily encourages recover-stalling, and if they crit, you're really screwed. But...it's really good regardless.

Edit: Foul play isn't even for physical attackers;it's for every psychic- and ghost- type in OU, and most of those are specially based. In fact, they're a very large portion of sableye's general switch-ins. Physical attackers is just a sweet bonus, although it's nice to be able to do something to them.

It also lets you slam burned Conkeldurr, often even 2hitko'ing it as it bulks up. (it can't KO you back with Ice Punch even with 252/4 physical investment)

[Vertex]

Well, basically Snarl is more useful because physical attackers are crippled by WOW, so I find Snarl the better option.

[Seth Vilo]

I'm just seconding tehy here for Foul Play / Snarl. In my Sableye-using, Foul Play does smack things that come in on Sableye anyway, while still punishing things that try to set up like tehy said. Snarl is still good, but seemed far too dependent on something switching in to it in my use. I swaped frequently back and forth from Foul Play to Snarl to test, and settled on Foul Play so Sableye can actually KO things instead of just lasting a little longer via a SpA drop. Seeing Sableye KO something is equally satisfying to me and surprising to an opponent.

I'm rambling, but in my use, which has been having Sableye on every team I've made bar a handful since it was released, Foul Play seemed overall superior, with Snarl a close second. I'm not QC and have no fancy badges, but am reporting in on my favorite.

[BKC]

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

gee who came up with snarl sableye anyways cough cough

an enormous nerd

for what it's worth i think foul play should be the first option but snarl should be slashed right after! i never really liked night shade

[tehy]

For what it's worth so do I

The principal greatness of Night Shade is wearing down Heatran. The bulky set has lefties and often Protect to go with it, but if you can get SR and night shades, you can kill it in a few switch-ins. (One layer of spikes, and you can doom it in two-3). It also stops Volca from switching in quite as easily and isn't **********cked by burn nearly so hard, but if you're running Heal Bell/Aroma or just avoid burn, foul play is pretty great.

Worth noting that max SpD sableye walls basically any non-boosting specially based pokemon after a snarl, or after two (it can take a hit and snarl again.) Only exception is stuff like Specs/LO keldeo under rain, specs Chandelure or something under sun, etc. Also worth noting that the 5% miss chance can bone you, and while sableye lives with the WoW hax, at least WoW is a pretty permanent cripple+residual damage.

Edit: Like i said, when I start really getting down to business (After I get home from my sister's graduation and have a place to POKEMON without being seen/heard) im probably removing them. in the meanwhile I figured i might as well leave them open on the off-chance that we were all wrong and they're good and someone proves it. Sounds pretty lazy I know but it doesn't cost me much anyhow (Or anyone else, for that matter. The skellies+Acs are short as hell too.)

[Lavos Spawn]

i've only ever ran sableye on an old bw1 rain stall as my spinblocker, so i always used max hp max sdef just to handle star/tenta better. for that team in particular, snarl kicked ass. however if you guys are in favor of slashing foul play before snarl that's fine by me, as long as snarl gets the second slash (and night shade maybe a distant third).

why do the trick/cm sets still exist? they are horrible

[Princess Bri]

Yah Trick and CM bad. Remove then and put in OO.

[tehy]

All right, so fair enough. When i start i'll do that.

WIth that said, two of my big questions are left unanswered:Can Sableye run a Swagger set, Liepard style? (Of course, with my luck, turns out he can't learn it.Swear i've seen it before, though.)

Also, what's the main spread? I have massive favor towards 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def but that's not the onsite spread and others might disagree. Let's get some discussion on this