(Gen 2) Part 4: Posting all 7 of my teams (aka every team ever). NET TEAM ME.

Borat · Dec 28th, 2010, 3:28:47 AM

Part 1: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51778 (outdated, but still good)
Part 2: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65122
Part 3: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81313
Part 4: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84227
Part 5: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84449

Part 6: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3447576 best one

Okay, I lied. I didn't make #3 and #4, those were formulaic teams that no one can really put a claim on. I did, however, generalize them. Probably 90%+ of playable teams fall here, none of which are "creative" (STOP CALLING IT YOUR TEAM). I've seen it before, I've made it before, what's there to "rate"? EDIT: Removed teams. Morons. Honestly, they were examples, not the definitive guide to every team that exists. Make your own.

And apparently, ViL made the BP team completely independent of me, so I guess I'll be akin to co-creator. The last team isn't serious.

Nothing is set in stone, obviously, so if you nit pick, you find dozens of moves/sets I forgot to list, but don't be a dumbass. The concept is there.

Situational sets/pokemon are listed second, but equal alternatives are also listed second. Use common sense to figure out if it's an equal alternative, or a situational one.

GERMANY

Cloyster (F) @ Leftovers/Forretress
- Surf
- Spikes
- Rest
- Rapid Spin/Toxic

Raikou @ Leftovers
- Roar
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Water]
- Rest

Skarmory (F) @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Rest
- Drill Peck
- Whirlwind

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
- Curse/Belly Drum
- Rest
- Double-Edge/Body Slam/Return
- Sleep Talk/Earthquake/Fire Blast/Lovely Kiss/Curse

Zapdos @ Leftovers/Starmie @ Leftovers/Suicune
- Thunder/Psychic
- Hidden Power [Ice]/Rapid Spin
- Rest/Recover
- Sleep Talk/Thunder wave/Surf

Umbreon (F) @ Leftovers
- Charm
- Toxic
- Pursuit
- Rest

My take on stall. It’s better because I made it. If you're using Starmie, go with Toxic on Cloyster. Thunder wave is a fine addition if you don't mind not hitting the darks, just paralyzing them, otherwise, go with the safer Surf. I like twave personally though, since it's creative. Revolves around spikes prediction with Raikou/Skarm. Umbreon so you can divide and conquer (where stalls are at their best) and dedicate it to one of the dangerous pokemon (e.g. snorlax, exeggutor, ttar, etc) and not worry about the rest of the team if you end up sacrificing it. You can Suicune if you feel like playing a more "familiar" stall.

Yes, double Electric.

HAHA I’M CREATIVE… NOT

Cloyster (F) @ Leftovers/Forretress (M)
- Rapid Spin
- Rest
- Spikes
- Surf/Ice Beam

Also sometimes used as filler slot. Personally advise against it, losing spikes is not what you want to do for a team that's going to lack offense.

Raikou @ Leftovers/Zapdos
- Hidden Power [Water]/[Ice]
- Rest
- Roar
- Thunderbolt

Zapdos with ST Ice set.

Skarmory (F) @ Leftovers/(No Item)/Steelix
- Curse/Thief
- Drill Peck
- Rest
- Whirlwind

Steelix set up to you. With Roar obviously.

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Double-Edge
- Rest
- Belly Drum

Earthquake/Fire Blast/Lovely Kiss anywhere.

Suicune @ Leftovers/Starmie/Misdreavus/Umbreon/Exeggutor/Gengar/Rhydon/Tyranitar
- Surf
- Rest
- Sleep Talk/Roar
- Ice Beam/Toxic

Standard sets for alternatives. Filler slot on standard stall, usually additional backup phazer/utility. Sometimes used as space for offense (e.g. Marowak/Nidoking/Heracross/Dragonite/Tyranitar). I haven't found any success with Raichu.

Miltank (F) @ Leftovers/Blissey (F)
- Body Slam/Flamethrower/Thunderbolt
- Growl/Light Screen/Sing
- Milk Drink/Softboiled
- Heal Bell

Yeah. Standard stall.

DELILAH

Smeargle (F) @ Leftovers
- Agility
- Baton Pass
- Belly Drum
- Spore

Jolteon (M) @ Leftovers
- Agility
- Baton Pass
- Hidden Power [Water]
- Thunderbolt

Scizor (M) @ Leftovers
- Agility
- Baton Pass
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Swords Dance

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
- Belly Drum
- Earthquake
- Lovely Kiss
- Return

Marowak (M) @ Thick Club
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Rock Slide
- Swords Dance

Charizard (M) @ Leftovers/Quagsire (M)
- Belly Drum
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast/Hidden Power [Rock]
- Rock Slide/Sludge Bomb

Smeargle was originally Celebi, but it works here. These are the only teams Smeargle/Scizor work on. Yes, Quagsire. Predict the phazers, and sleep them, obviously. Don’t waste sleep. 3+ phazers is hard counter though.

BITCHES LOVE LEAVES

Magneton @ Leftovers
- Hidden Power [Water]
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt

Feraligatr (M) @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Earthquake
- Hydro Pump
- Rock Slide

Victreebel (M) @ Leftovers
- Giga Drain
- Sleep Powder
- Sludge Bomb
- Swords Dance

Quagsire (M) @ Leftovers
- Belly Drum
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Sludge Bomb

Dodrio (M) @ Leftovers
- Double-Edge
- Drill Peck
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Sandslash (M) @ Leftovers
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Rock Slide
- Swords Dance

This probably isn’t as good as it was back when I made it. It’s literally unchanged since 2004, except for one Pokemon (Clefable -> Quagsire, because apparently clefable isn’t UU anymore). I can’t explain this one for the life of me, but people lose to it. Face OUs, it’s meant to.

YOUR CHALLENGE

Find me one team that doesn’t converge here.

You'll notice a few things. Ctrl + F Alakazam not found. Cause it sucks. Raichu neither, but only because I see it as an inferior... many things, depending on how you use it. Encore set hasn't been good in a long time. Speaking of things that hasn't been good in a long time: Tentacruel. Someone prove me wrong, PLEASE. I love tentacruel. Jynx is only listed once, because I feel "sleep trapping" should be banned. Jynx without sleep trapping is just... Pikachu? Espeon should be OU based on power and usability.

Clefable.

Also as a follow up, you can add a ML + BP Umbreon to any one of these teams if you feel like your opponent is too cool for phazing.

EDIT: The names are all random. Sort of. There's no hidden meaning or some shit.

EDIT2: removed some teams

Jorgen · Dec 28th, 2010, 9:01:54 AM

Is it just me, or does this rant seem especially drunken?

Anyway, you make it sound all imperialistic and devoid of variation when you say "These 7 are all that can be" (paraphrased), but when you look at all the alts, there's plenty of variety to go with. (Yes, I'm criticizing your tone rather than the core message, wanna fight about it?) However, it is true that all of the concepts are covered (1.stall, 2.consistent offense, 3.explosion [3.a.overcentralized offensive and 3.b.stallish flavors], 4.BP, and 5?.lolUU), though you could probably merge the stalls and BP teams together. 7 teams makes it seem like there's 7 ideas when there's really only 4 or 5 serious ideas, imo.

It's kind of like the truism regarding how there's only "X number of stories" in all of literature; sure, you can mix and match appropriate tropes (pokemon) and make the story (team) your own, but at the end of the day, you're using one of X basic structures and conveying one of X basic ideas, because that's all there is. Just as you won't revolutionize literature with some great new archetypal story, you won't revolutionize GSC with an archetypal team idea.

.Maguss. · Dec 28th, 2010, 9:42:30 AM

Heracross + Tyranitar, , Snorlax, Blissey, Skarmory and Starmie

Tentacruel + Jolteon, Charizard, Snorlax, Tyranitar and Marowak

Borat · Dec 28th, 2010, 3:10:16 PM

There are a limited number of "equal" alternatives. So I guess you can say the true number of variations is some finite number in the teens, tweens if you're counting every different move as a different team (which you shouldn't).

There are an infinite number of inferior alternatives though. (Inferior doesn't necessarily mean the team sucks.)

e.g. Cloyster, Snorlax, Exeggutor, Gengar, Steelix, Zapdos is superior to Cloyster, Snorlax, Exeggutor, Gengar, Steelix, Raikou.

Cloyster, Snorlax, Exeggutor, Nidoking, Zapdos, Gengar is superior to Cloyster, Snorlax, Exeggutor, Nidoking, Zapdos, Misdreavus.

All are completely above-average, playable teams.

Dec 28th, 2010, 3:28:47 AM	#1
Borat Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 723	Part 4: Posting all 7 of my teams (aka every team ever). NET TEAM ME. Part 1: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51778 (outdated, but still good) Part 2: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65122 Part 3: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81313 Part 4: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84227 Part 5: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84449 Part 6: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3447576 best one Okay, I lied. I didn't make #3 and #4, those were formulaic teams that no one can really put a claim on. I did, however, generalize them. Probably 90%+ of playable teams fall here, none of which are "creative" (STOP CALLING IT YOUR TEAM). I've seen it before, I've made it before, what's there to "rate"? EDIT: Removed teams. Morons. Honestly, they were examples, not the definitive guide to every team that exists. Make your own. And apparently, ViL made the BP team completely independent of me, so I guess I'll be akin to co-creator. The last team isn't serious. Nothing is set in stone, obviously, so if you nit pick, you find dozens of moves/sets I forgot to list, but don't be a dumbass. The concept is there. Situational sets/pokemon are listed second, but equal alternatives are also listed second. Use common sense to figure out if it's an equal alternative, or a situational one. GERMANY Cloyster (F) @ Leftovers/Forretress - Surf - Spikes - Rest - Rapid Spin/Toxic Raikou @ Leftovers - Roar - Thunderbolt - Hidden Power [Water] - Rest Skarmory (F) @ Leftovers - Curse - Rest - Drill Peck - Whirlwind Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers - Curse/Belly Drum - Rest - Double-Edge/Body Slam/Return - Sleep Talk/Earthquake/Fire Blast/Lovely Kiss/Curse Zapdos @ Leftovers/Starmie @ Leftovers/Suicune - Thunder/Psychic - Hidden Power [Ice]/Rapid Spin - Rest/Recover - Sleep Talk/Thunder wave/Surf Umbreon (F) @ Leftovers - Charm - Toxic - Pursuit - Rest My take on stall. It’s better because I made it. If you're using Starmie, go with Toxic on Cloyster. Thunder wave is a fine addition if you don't mind not hitting the darks, just paralyzing them, otherwise, go with the safer Surf. I like twave personally though, since it's creative. Revolves around spikes prediction with Raikou/Skarm. Umbreon so you can divide and conquer (where stalls are at their best) and dedicate it to one of the dangerous pokemon (e.g. snorlax, exeggutor, ttar, etc) and not worry about the rest of the team if you end up sacrificing it. You can Suicune if you feel like playing a more "familiar" stall. Yes, double Electric. HAHA I’M CREATIVE… NOT Cloyster (F) @ Leftovers/Forretress (M) - Rapid Spin - Rest - Spikes - Surf/Ice Beam Also sometimes used as filler slot. Personally advise against it, losing spikes is not what you want to do for a team that's going to lack offense. Raikou @ Leftovers/Zapdos - Hidden Power [Water]/[Ice] - Rest - Roar - Thunderbolt Zapdos with ST Ice set. Skarmory (F) @ Leftovers/(No Item)/Steelix - Curse/Thief - Drill Peck - Rest - Whirlwind Steelix set up to you. With Roar obviously. Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers - Curse - Double-Edge - Rest - Belly Drum Earthquake/Fire Blast/Lovely Kiss anywhere. Suicune @ Leftovers/Starmie/Misdreavus/Umbreon/Exeggutor/Gengar/Rhydon/Tyranitar - Surf - Rest - Sleep Talk/Roar - Ice Beam/Toxic Standard sets for alternatives. Filler slot on standard stall, usually additional backup phazer/utility. Sometimes used as space for offense (e.g. Marowak/Nidoking/Heracross/Dragonite/Tyranitar). I haven't found any success with Raichu. Miltank (F) @ Leftovers/Blissey (F) - Body Slam/Flamethrower/Thunderbolt - Growl/Light Screen/Sing - Milk Drink/Softboiled - Heal Bell Yeah. Standard stall. DELILAH Smeargle (F) @ Leftovers - Agility - Baton Pass - Belly Drum - Spore Jolteon (M) @ Leftovers - Agility - Baton Pass - Hidden Power [Water] - Thunderbolt Scizor (M) @ Leftovers - Agility - Baton Pass - Hidden Power [Bug] - Swords Dance Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers - Belly Drum - Earthquake - Lovely Kiss - Return Marowak (M) @ Thick Club - Earthquake - Hidden Power [Flying] - Rock Slide - Swords Dance Charizard (M) @ Leftovers/Quagsire (M) - Belly Drum - Earthquake - Fire Blast/Hidden Power [Rock] - Rock Slide/Sludge Bomb Smeargle was originally Celebi, but it works here. These are the only teams Smeargle/Scizor work on. Yes, Quagsire. Predict the phazers, and sleep them, obviously. Don’t waste sleep. 3+ phazers is hard counter though. BITCHES LOVE LEAVES Magneton @ Leftovers - Hidden Power [Water] - Substitute - Thunder Wave - Thunderbolt Feraligatr (M) @ Leftovers - Curse - Earthquake - Hydro Pump - Rock Slide Victreebel (M) @ Leftovers - Giga Drain - Sleep Powder - Sludge Bomb - Swords Dance Quagsire (M) @ Leftovers - Belly Drum - Earthquake - Hidden Power [Rock] - Sludge Bomb Dodrio (M) @ Leftovers - Double-Edge - Drill Peck - Rest - Sleep Talk Sandslash (M) @ Leftovers - Earthquake - Hidden Power [Flying] - Rock Slide - Swords Dance This probably isn’t as good as it was back when I made it. It’s literally unchanged since 2004, except for one Pokemon (Clefable -> Quagsire, because apparently clefable isn’t UU anymore). I can’t explain this one for the life of me, but people lose to it. Face OUs, it’s meant to. YOUR CHALLENGE Find me one team that doesn’t converge here. You'll notice a few things. Ctrl + F Alakazam not found. Cause it sucks. Raichu neither, but only because I see it as an inferior... many things, depending on how you use it. Encore set hasn't been good in a long time. Speaking of things that hasn't been good in a long time: Tentacruel. Someone prove me wrong, PLEASE. I love tentacruel. Jynx is only listed once, because I feel "sleep trapping" should be banned. Jynx without sleep trapping is just... Pikachu? Espeon should be OU based on power and usability. Clefable. Also as a follow up, you can add a ML + BP Umbreon to any one of these teams if you feel like your opponent is too cool for phazing. EDIT: The names are all random. Sort of. There's no hidden meaning or some shit. EDIT2: removed some teams Last edited by Borat; May 14th, 2011 at 5:34:12 AM.

Dec 28th, 2010, 9:01:54 AM	#2
Jorgen Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 712	Is it just me, or does this rant seem especially drunken? Anyway, you make it sound all imperialistic and devoid of variation when you say "These 7 are all that can be" (paraphrased), but when you look at all the alts, there's plenty of variety to go with. (Yes, I'm criticizing your tone rather than the core message, wanna fight about it?) However, it is true that all of the concepts are covered (1.stall, 2.consistent offense, 3.explosion [3.a.overcentralized offensive and 3.b.stallish flavors], 4.BP, and 5?.lolUU), though you could probably merge the stalls and BP teams together. 7 teams makes it seem like there's 7 ideas when there's really only 4 or 5 serious ideas, imo. It's kind of like the truism regarding how there's only "X number of stories" in all of literature; sure, you can mix and match appropriate tropes (pokemon) and make the story (team) your own, but at the end of the day, you're using one of X basic structures and conveying one of X basic ideas, because that's all there is. Just as you won't revolutionize literature with some great new archetypal story, you won't revolutionize GSC with an archetypal team idea.

Dec 28th, 2010, 9:42:30 AM	#3
.Maguss. Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 203 Porto Alegre, RS, Brazil	Heracross + Tyranitar, , Snorlax, Blissey, Skarmory and Starmie Tentacruel + Jolteon, Charizard, Snorlax, Tyranitar and Marowak __________________ Check out the DVs

Dec 28th, 2010, 3:10:16 PM	#4
Borat Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 723	There are a limited number of "equal" alternatives. So I guess you can say the true number of variations is some finite number in the teens, tweens if you're counting every different move as a different team (which you shouldn't). There are an infinite number of inferior alternatives though. (Inferior doesn't necessarily mean the team sucks.) e.g. Cloyster, Snorlax, Exeggutor, Gengar, Steelix, Zapdos is superior to Cloyster, Snorlax, Exeggutor, Gengar, Steelix, Raikou. Cloyster, Snorlax, Exeggutor, Nidoking, Zapdos, Gengar is superior to Cloyster, Snorlax, Exeggutor, Nidoking, Zapdos, Misdreavus. All are completely above-average, playable teams. Last edited by Borat; Jan 2nd, 2011 at 3:12:00 AM.