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Old Dec 17th, 2010, 7:20:27 PM   #26
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An idea that I had was a system of "move-leveling," which would be related to energy expended. I was asked to write up a proposal, so here is a rough one.

In the anime, Pokemon often do not master their moves immediately upon learning them, just as people do not master skills immediately upon acquiring them. In order to represent this, I believe that five "ranks" of moves ought to be implemented, namely: Novice, Decent, Good, Great and Master. How would these be implemented, you ask? In essence, each move would raise the damage output by 20%, starting at 40% of max power.

So, Novice is 40%, Decent is 60%, Good is 80% and Great is 100%. They take 100% of the required energy to perform while at this level. What is the purpose of the "Master" level, then? Mastery, to me at least, signifies a bit more finesse than just being good at execution. Mastery allows you to trade off power for a lower energy cost to use the move, meaning that you can use it at Novice-level power for 40% energy if you so desire.

Once you reach the "Good" level, you can begin using moves for unorthodox purposes, such as aiming Flamethrower at the ground to melt it. At the "Great" level, you can perform more complex maneuvers, such as acrobatics of moves. At the "Master" level, you have complete control of the attack and can use it to its full accuracy and effect, as well as combine certain attacks to create more potent moves, such as Whirlpool and Thundershock to create an electrified whirlpool. Both moves must be mastered to combine them, and their power/effects are determined at the referee/facilitator of the battle's discretion.
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Old Dec 17th, 2010, 9:13:54 PM   #27
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This seems like a very interestng proposal, and a good one too. But how are we going to decide when a Pokemon's move 'levels up?' I assume it's based on amount of times the move is used. However, a move such as Fire Blast would obviously be harder to master than Ember. Therefore, I propose we group moves into four power groups.

Beginner: 40 or lower
Easy: 45-80
Medium: 85-110
Hard: 115 or higher

Obviously there are a couple of snags here. For multi-hit moves, I suggest we should use the total power of three hits (the average). Status moves would be grouped according to effectiveness. For instance, Smokescreen would be Easy and Toxic hard.

Here are some equations I thought of to calculate when a move levels up. Note that x is the move's difficulty, with Beginner being 1, Easy 2, and so on. These are not by any means the last word on this, just a starting point. The addition is necessary because without it, you could master a beginner move in 10 executions.

Novice: 0
Decent: 3x
Good: 5x + 2
Great:8x + 4
Master: 10x + 5
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Old Dec 18th, 2010, 12:21:45 AM   #28
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OK, so I'm going to trust everyone here with this next bit.

Essentially if you want to contribute to the attack list, please PM me with a writing sample of the following 5 attacks. Don't worry about damage etc., I just want to know how you would describe it.

5 Attack test:
Describe the following moves.

Dig
Hypnosis
Light Screen
Mach Punch
Psychic

Once I get your descriptions of these moves I'll respond with any notes on it, then assign you a letter. As long as your fundamental writing skills are up to snuff you'll be fine, we can mull over specifics later.

If you need assistance with Anime descriptions, Bulbapedia's Move Index has links to any uses of an attack in the Anime.

Notes: The moves I am going to list already have mechanics about stage boosts and their duration assumed. Specifically most stage boosts are temporary and last for a specified number of rounds after use, with additional uses of the move being less effective than in-game but increasing the duration. Furthermore there is a mechanical assuption towards "normalcy" where stat reductions are also decreased as rounds wear on naturally. These mechanics are up for discussion.

Additionally, I have made the following assumptions about move power and energy costs:

Move power is roughly equivalent to in-game base power multiplied by 10 and rounded up in the case of moves with BPs ending in 5.

Energy Costs are anywhere between 1/2 and 2/3rds of the damage a move deals. It is assumed later that STAB bonus will increase damage and reduce energy cost for attacks of that Pokemon's type. +2 Stat Boosters generally cost around 7 energy per use, and HP restoring moves have heavy energy costs generally to prevent stalling. There is an action called "chill" that restores 10% (flat) of the Pokemon's energy and which is usually limited in battles. If a Pokemon hits either 0% HP or 0% Energy it will faint. The system is created so boosting actions and healing are generally disfavored but otherwise viable options.

I welcome discussion on these mechanical choices as well, insofar as we reason about how to move them around to be efficient and balanced.

Formatting for common move occurrences:

This is how I want moves formatted (depending on other move circumstances the specific sentence effects can change) I have bolded things I want to be fixed in all entries:


Multi-Hit Moves:

<2-5 Hits Move:> <Attack-specific description>. It can disrupt an opponent’s move that takes a while to charge up.

Attack Power: [x] per hit | Accuracy: xx% | Energy Cost: 2[x] | Effect Chance: --

Stage Boosters (+ or -1): <Attack specific description with any relevant battle effects>. <stat raised/lowered> will not be dropped/increased [respectively] at the end of the round<, any other relevant text like when the attack is initially used.>

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 5 | Effect Chance: --


Stage Boosters (+2 and +1/+1): <Attack specific description with any relevant battle effects, note the stage of the boosts and which stats they affect.>.<, any other relevant text like when the attack is initially used.>

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 7 | Effect Chance: --

Moves with higher boosts or situationally higher boosts (Shell Break, Butterfly Dance, Growth) will be handled on an individual basis. There aren't that many of them.

Damaging Guaranteed Stage Droppers (-1): <Attack specific description with any relevant battle effects,> lowering their <stat> by one stage.

Attack Power: [x] | Accuracy: xx% | Energy Cost: [x] - 1 | Effect Chance: --

Non-Damaging Stage Droppers (-1): <Attack specific description with any relevant battle effects,> lowering their <stat> by 1 stage/

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: xx% | Energy Cost: 4 | Effect Chance: --


Non-Damaging Stage Droppers (-2): <Attack specific description with any relevant battle effects,> lowering their <stat> by 2 stages for the next two rounds. Subsequent uses will alternate between reducing the opponent’s <stat> by 1 stage and the effect duration by 1 round.

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: xx% | Energy Cost: 6 | Effect Chance: --

Direct Recovery Moves: <Attack specific description with any relevant battle effects>, restoring 20 percentage points of their health.

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: Maximum HP/10 + 2 | Effect Chance: --

Attack List Anchor
Note: This is going to be the editted and updated list for the thread, if there are discrepancies with other posts, this one takes precedence.

Attack List A


Attack List B


Attack List C


Attack List D


Attack List E


Attack List F


Attack List G


Attack List H


Attack List I



Attack List J


Attack List K


Attack List L


Attack List M


Attack List N


Attack List O


Attack List P


Attack List Q


Attack list R


Attack List S



Attack List T


Attack List U


Attack List V


Attack List W


Attack List X


Attack List Y


Attack List Z
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[17:53] <&Deck_Knight> If I Cite and Prune CiteandPrune's post, what does that make me?
[17:54] <Birkal> a citeandprune cite and prunner
[17:54] <%DHR> O_o lol
[17:54] <+Mos_Quitoxe> Cite and Prune doesn't do enough of either
[17:55] <+Mos_Quitoxe> can we make him change it or force him to pay damages
[17:55] <&Deck_Knight> It would be a lot easier for him to Cite and Prune if we made him a mod.
[17:56] <&Deck_Knight> I delegate this task to Birkal.
[17:57] <Birkal> >:|

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Old Dec 18th, 2010, 8:49:25 AM   #29
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Sent in my test.
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Old Dec 18th, 2010, 4:18:29 PM   #30
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Well, I was also going to propose that moves such as Water Gun and Hydro Pump essentially be higher levels of one another. As in, once attaining a certain level of mastery over Water Gun, you would be able to learn Hydro Pump at beginner-level, which would presumably be roughly equivalent in power to mastered Water Gun. A an example of some moves which be higher levels of one another would be:

Water Gun--Good-->Water Pulse--Master-->Hydro Pump
Ember--Master-->Overheat
Flame Wheel--Mastery-->Flare Blitz
Flamethrower--Mastery-->Eruption
Poison Gas--Master-->Toxic

Why would Ember and Fire Blast not be on the same track? The means of Fire-propulsion are presumably different. Fire Blast creates a star of Fire, and as a result is totally different from other fire moves. Flamethrower is just a straight stream of fire. Ember and Overheat both seem to be smaller streams which become an eruption upon contact with the opponent. I would ask others to work out the full list, as I don't want to do it by myself <_>;
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Old Dec 18th, 2010, 5:47:45 PM   #31
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The thing is that some of the assumptions you make about move propulsion are false. For instance, your water moves track. Water Pulse is either a pulsing ring of water or a ball that explodes on contact. And Hydro Pump is not necessarily a single stream of water either;many jets of water are fired and they are far more pressurized than a Water Gun.

Or take the Poison track. Poison Gas is a general release of gas out of any part of the body. However, Toxic is generally a concentrated projectile stream fired out of the mouth (if appliable).

In conclusion, all moves are unique and should be mastered seperately.
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Old Dec 18th, 2010, 9:03:53 PM   #32
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While I'm not opposed to the idea of mastery for attacks, I definitely do not want different attacks tracked into each other. For one it's an entirely arbitrary process and for two, the system is already complicated enough with 550+ different moves. Getting tracking charts that take all that into account is a nightmare of its own order.

I would however say that if you have the same Type as an attack, that attack will begin at "Good" level mastery. It's non-STAB attacks that should require more practice to master, since typing should grant innate benefits.
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[17:53] <&Deck_Knight> If I Cite and Prune CiteandPrune's post, what does that make me?
[17:54] <Birkal> a citeandprune cite and prunner
[17:54] <%DHR> O_o lol
[17:54] <+Mos_Quitoxe> Cite and Prune doesn't do enough of either
[17:55] <+Mos_Quitoxe> can we make him change it or force him to pay damages
[17:55] <&Deck_Knight> It would be a lot easier for him to Cite and Prune if we made him a mod.
[17:56] <&Deck_Knight> I delegate this task to Birkal.
[17:57] <Birkal> >:|
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Old Dec 18th, 2010, 11:38:13 PM   #33
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Sounds cool. One modification I'd like to suggest is that is a Pokemon has two typings, it only gets its STAB starting at Decent because of split training/innate ability.
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Old Dec 19th, 2010, 4:36:57 PM   #34
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(I realize this is a lol first post and Smogon tends to respect experience and good standing, but I’ve lurked for a while and played ASB elsewhere - so hopefully I’m not speaking from total ignorance.)

Couple of thoughts:

The idea of implementing a stat scale to act as a sort of equalizer is a good one - on the other hand, it may not go far enough. The major draw of ASB, I think, is the possibility of using clever strategies and nonstandard techniques to do well with Pokémon who aren't normally competitive, and that's worth encouraging. My favorite method of taking base stats into account (the last ASB I was in bascially left it up to the refs) was to judge a Pokémon not against others, but against itself. Basically, the Atk/Def/SpA/SpD spread would be used to give a small bonus or penalty to each stat, always adding to 0. For example, Absol (130/60/75/60) might act as if it had inherent modifiers of +2/-1/0/-1. This takes the differences between Pokémon into account while keeping a level playing field. It's totally stolen from this page, by the way; there's a little more explanation there if you want it (it's the last section).
(This doesn't handle HP or Speed, obviously; though I agree that those should be differentiated as well, I have to say that giving anything a base health of other than 100 per cent is just inherently wrong. It would make me very very sad.)

Re: the economic system: is one really necessary? This may just have been my experience, but what with the sheer length of battles, having to go through x of them to buy another mon or evolve one you already had was an awful grind. Running a business was fun, if you could find a decent niche, but trying to scrape together money by reffing and battling was a lot of work for not much reward (and what reward there was had to be crossposted in umpteen different ways before it could be put to use).
Isn't a win/loss record, or a ladder ranking, enough? Why not take a leaf from the book of the rest of online competitive Pokémon, and let each player declare a team - privately to the ref, if they like - before each battle? It skips the grind, it makes it easier to experiment with different mons, and it sidesteps the issues of leveling, evolving, attack mastery, etc. Admittedly, it takes away the most obvious form of compensation for refs, but since the money's all pretend anyway, I'm sure some other intangible boon could be substituted.

I would support a Smogon ASB every step of the way. So much fun!
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Old Dec 19th, 2010, 4:57:49 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Cryosaur View Post
(I realize this is a lol first post and Smogon tends to respect experience and good standing, but I’ve lurked for a while and played ASB elsewhere - so hopefully I’m not speaking from total ignorance.)

Couple of thoughts:

The idea of implementing a stat scale to act as a sort of equalizer is a good one - on the other hand, it may not go far enough. The major draw of ASB, I think, is the possibility of using clever strategies and nonstandard techniques to do well with Pokémon who aren't normally competitive, and that's worth encouraging. My favorite method of taking base stats into account (the last ASB I was in bascially left it up to the refs) was to judge a Pokémon not against others, but against itself. Basically, the Atk/Def/SpA/SpD spread would be used to give a small bonus or penalty to each stat, always adding to 0. For example, Absol (130/60/75/60) might act as if it had inherent modifiers of +2/-1/0/-1. This takes the differences between Pokémon into account while keeping a level playing field. It's totally stolen from this page, by the way; there's a little more explanation there if you want it (it's the last section).
(This doesn't handle HP or Speed, obviously; though I agree that those should be differentiated as well, I have to say that giving anything a base health of other than 100 per cent is just inherently wrong. It would make me very very sad.)

Re: the economic system: is one really necessary? This may just have been my experience, but what with the sheer length of battles, having to go through x of them to buy another mon or evolve one you already had was an awful grind. Running a business was fun, if you could find a decent niche, but trying to scrape together money by reffing and battling was a lot of work for not much reward (and what reward there was had to be crossposted in umpteen different ways before it could be put to use).
Isn't a win/loss record, or a ladder ranking, enough? Why not take a leaf from the book of the rest of online competitive Pokémon, and let each player declare a team - privately to the ref, if they like - before each battle? It skips the grind, it makes it easier to experiment with different mons, and it sidesteps the issues of leveling, evolving, attack mastery, etc. Admittedly, it takes away the most obvious form of compensation for refs, but since the money's all pretend anyway, I'm sure some other intangible boon could be substituted.

I would support a Smogon ASB every step of the way. So much fun!
Technically speaking an economic system is not neccesarry for the league to function since the primary activity is battling, however it does add substantial depth and avoids the stagnation that occurs when your ref takes a while to do each round. Since reffing takes substantially more time/skill than battling the economic system is supposed to incentivize refs to do it for reasons other than the "fun" of it. Some people are motivated by creative writing, but giving refs a substantial financial advantage to make up for their increased time and effort provides a semblance of balance. Refs have less time to battle themselves but will be able to visit shops to evolve/catch or train more often.

So the battling system is key and it's why we're doing it first. Everything else is supposed to add more depth to the experience and make it a fun place to go to and look into generally.

As far as statistics, I am open to changes but I'm not too keen on the idea of comparing a Pokemon to itself. Blissey's bigass HP isn't reflected in giving it -2/-2/0/+4 Atk/Def/SpA/Spe. What the star system tries to do is the following:

a) Normalize statistics to cluster pokemon together more than the game's inherent values.
b) Simultaneously showcase each of the Pokemon's unique advantages and disadvantages.

The object of the first is to make it so each Pokemon is about as viable vs more opponents than they otherwise would be in game. Absol still hits significantly harder with its physical attacks than the average Pokemon, but it isn't wiped out by strong offenses of other Pokemon either. In other words, in normal battle conditions Absol would do about 3 points more damage per attack with its physical attacks to a pokemon with average defenses, while taking normal damage from a pokemon with average attack scores. Considering Absol is the only Pokemon in its evolution line, this makes it much more attractive indeed than it is in-cartridge. Similar can be said of Skarmory, who dishes out average damage with physical attacks but takes 3 points less damage per attack from physical attacks. Now Skarmory has always been popular in OU, unlike Absol, but suffice it to say Skarmory and Absol are basically statistically equal in value (well, Skarm's SpA is weak but eh.)

The effect is more pronounced when you consider things like Spinda and Glalie are statistically "average Pokemon." While they don't have any distinct advantages, neither are they truly hampered by having lousy stat distribution. They're now pooled in with Kingdra basically, barring some Speed differences.

As far as some of the unsightly HP values, I've been unable to come up with a way to represent HP in the defenses. Since there's not really EV's in ASB, you can either default to GSC where everything walls everything or else make it so some attack effects are more useful. For example Blissey having insane HP and terrible defense means that every time something smacks it with Drain Punch they will get gobs of HP. Leech Seed can also be written in a way to sap say 10% of the Pokemon's Maximum HP prer round, which in Blissey's case would be 14 per round, same as Seeding a Blissey in-game. Not to mention that low HP Ghosts using Pain Split can wear Blissey down a bunch, then Pain Split for massive damage. Even on the first turn it would bring Blissey down by 20% HP if used by Gengar or 25% by Dusclops. Ghost Curse + Pain Split is pretty much a surefire way to slaughter whatever advantage Blissey might have had by having such a massive HP to buffer its poor physical defense. Granted these attacks still need a balanced interpretation in the attack list, but essentially any effect that would make having High HP a liability in-game would have the same effect in ASB.

Although to be fair, yes, Blissey is still very powerful, however because of the way ASB operates you'll have to start with a Happiny first and Happiny is deplorable statistically.

btw. that site you linked to is insanely epic. I'm going to link the main page in the OP.
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[17:53] <&Deck_Knight> If I Cite and Prune CiteandPrune's post, what does that make me?
[17:54] <Birkal> a citeandprune cite and prunner
[17:54] <%DHR> O_o lol
[17:54] <+Mos_Quitoxe> Cite and Prune doesn't do enough of either
[17:55] <+Mos_Quitoxe> can we make him change it or force him to pay damages
[17:55] <&Deck_Knight> It would be a lot easier for him to Cite and Prune if we made him a mod.
[17:56] <&Deck_Knight> I delegate this task to Birkal.
[17:57] <Birkal> >:|

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Old Dec 19th, 2010, 4:59:12 PM   #36
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Welcome to Smogon! Smogon is usually biased towards expericenced users...but this is ASB. Nobody is an experienced ASB'er besides like three people.

The reason for using the star system is so that base stats don't get totally out of hand, but there is some flexibility. About 60% or so of all stats of fully evolved Pokemon are three stars, because each star encompasses a wide range. Stat ratings are just so insane things don't happen.

Partially agreeing with you about the businesses. I agree that it takes too many battles to get any currency worth having, we should tone that down. But there has to be something at stake, so we need some sort of economic system.

That guide is pretty cool. Deck, might be a good idea to specify that those aren't the exact rules we're using. In addition, I think starting with single-stage Pokemon should be disallowed, as they are disproportionately strong and can easily rip apart NFEs.

EDIT: Ninja'd
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Old Dec 19th, 2010, 11:03:36 PM   #37
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I am greatly interested in this.

Feel free to VM/PM me if you need grunt work or statistics to trawl through. (I am going away for a while quite soon, so maybe not immediately.)

EDIT: Sent in my five move test. I'm perfectly happy to play or moderate, although I am going to have major issues, what with me going away for the holidays (Two weeks without the interwebs? Nooooooo!) and schoolwork once I get back. I'll do Q on the move list. ;)

Quick Attack: The Pokemon moves at extraordinary speed, striking the opponent before they can move.

Attack Power: 4 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 2 | Effect Chance: --
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Old Dec 20th, 2010, 12:31:47 AM   #38
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More pawns to add to our army bwahaha!

In all seriousness, anyone who wants to help, send your 5 attack test to Deck Knight and do a letter of the move list.
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Old Dec 20th, 2010, 8:20:55 AM   #39
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Sounds fun. I will try to get my test done later today. I already am writing anime style battles, so it shouldn't be that hard to jump to reffing/battling.
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Old Dec 21st, 2010, 4:08:18 PM   #40
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Crap, I'm going on vacation and didn't finish C yet. I got most of it done, so might as well post here. If somebody else wants to finish they can, or I'll finish it when I get back.

...
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 1:42:36 AM   #41
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Ok, I've been assigned E, but I'm on holiday for the next two weeks and I have rather limited internet access for most of it. I'll see what I can dredge up.
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 1:45:58 PM   #42
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Meaning that someone must have D. Rediamond I guess. Also Deck cold you link to the movelists in the OP like you did for the other resources?
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 2:35:45 PM   #43
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I have "F." Also, I sent the PM, but how are we treating OHKO moves. I've been going with 150 BP and 30 accuracy at the moment, but there's probably a better way.
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 2:53:36 PM   #44
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Well then who has D...probably Deck took it but not sure.

Rediamond in the ASB I played OHKO moves are extremely powerful but not OHKO require a ton of energy (I would say round 15 to 20) and can only be used by each Pokemon once per match. Maybe ask Deck about it. Also remember that something with 150 ingame power we count as 15.
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Old Dec 22nd, 2010, 3:13:25 PM   #45
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I realize that. I think the accuracy is probably too low at 30 for a 150 BP move, so I moved it up to 50. I did PM Deck.
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Old Dec 23rd, 2010, 12:15:08 AM   #46
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Cool. Another public service announcement fo anyone who cares. Remember accuracy is subjective. Zap Cannon will not miss at point blank range and Bullet Punch for example will miss from ten meters away.

P.S. Four hundred posts woohoo!
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Old Dec 23rd, 2010, 4:01:16 AM   #47
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OK, for now Fissure is a 20 Attack, 15 Energy, 80 accuracy move.

As the move is trap based though, it is still very likely to KO a heavy opponent that can't levitate or fly, as the chances of escaping the fissure... about 35%. Not much really changed.
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Old Dec 23rd, 2010, 7:30:10 AM   #48
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Just to be clear on this, OHKO Moves are an entire category of cluster**** unto themselves and we'll probably work on a final resolution to what they do later. For now do your best with the descriptions.

I'm almost done with B now, will have it up tonight.
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[17:53] <&Deck_Knight> If I Cite and Prune CiteandPrune's post, what does that make me?
[17:54] <Birkal> a citeandprune cite and prunner
[17:54] <%DHR> O_o lol
[17:54] <+Mos_Quitoxe> Cite and Prune doesn't do enough of either
[17:55] <+Mos_Quitoxe> can we make him change it or force him to pay damages
[17:55] <&Deck_Knight> It would be a lot easier for him to Cite and Prune if we made him a mod.
[17:56] <&Deck_Knight> I delegate this task to Birkal.
[17:57] <Birkal> >:|
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Old Dec 23rd, 2010, 2:46:07 PM   #49
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G is done. Please let me know what and where needs to be changed. I improvised with Guillotine, and will change it if we come to a consensus of how 1HKO moves work.

...


I also left the effect of Grass Oath mixing with the Water and Fire variants open.
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Old Dec 23rd, 2010, 4:09:11 PM   #50
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Looks cool Cartoons. However I feel that some of you energy costs are a bt low.. For example Giga Drain should definitely use more than five energy as it has eight power and an energy draining effect.

Although Deck should probably be commenting on this.
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