Why complex bans are a waste. + My proposal (friendly discussion)

[Curtains]

This is my real first attempt at a real DST thread. I hope to spark some interesting discussions.

• Drizzle + swift swim
  
  Alderons proposal was interesting. Banning swift swim and drizzle so it wouldn't be that easy to sweep. However ,this proposal left many flaws and simply ignored the base mechanics of rain.
  
  1. When rain falls water attacks get x.5 stronger.
  
  This allows pokemon like Starmie who already ripped 4th gen up with its signature life orb set get an additional boost at no additional set up. It should be noted that Tyranitar is severely dented by LO rain hydro pump. Other attacks like waterfall,aqua tail ,surf, scald get boosted with no set up. Who needs swords dance or swift swim when i can just pound you with specs hydro pump anyway.
  
  2. 100% accurate high base power moves with secondary effects.
  
  Thunder and hurricane (specs) are mostly used by rain spam teams. These moves can 2hko the majority of the metagame without and set up or consequence. Which makes team building more cookie cutter and takes away diversity from the metagame.
  
  3. Fire moves do 50% less damage
  
  With rain in the air a entire type of pokemon is completely useless unless you can keep up a alternate weather. Additionally pokemon that are weak to fire get a huge buff. Ferrothorn , who is the best support pokemon in competitive takes fire blast like its nothing. Leech seed and then set up entry hazards. Scizor, who in 4th gen was the best offensive pokemon can come in with a special defensive set, set up swords dance all day long and not worry about hp fires. Pokemon like heatran who once at the end of 4th gen was the most used pokemon gets its first STAB cut in half with no effort or consequence by the opponent.
  
  Why is this important? It doesn't solve or "nerf" rain. Rain is a entire beast of its own. Cutting out an ability does not make it "nerfed" by any means.
  
  
  
• Shell smash + Baton pass (Smash and pass)
  
  This is pretty straight forward why this is a awkward and broad concept. The first thing is that smash and pass banning does not stop the original pokemon from sweeping. Which is more scary? A gorybyss with a shell smash (in rain or out)? or a garchomp with shell smash? They are both pretty damn scary to face. So this complex ban makes no sense. Thats out.
  
  
• Sand Veil and Sandstorm
  
  The last is a pretty controversial topic. My idea is simple. Blaziken is banned because of its ability (even though it has blaze) And garchomp is broken with its ability. So whats the difference? Why is blaziken so broken with blaze? Its almost issue of consistency. Ban X because of A and complex ban Y because we want to still have garchomp around because its fun to play with. Oh ok. I like garchomp and dragon spamming as do alot of people but we can't penalize gliscor and cacturne just because we want to keep garchomp in OU. Additionally Swift swim and rain is not on the same level as Sand veil and sandstorm. They can be both devistating but in the case of garchomp its far more easy to play around than swift swim.

So How do we fix it?

2 options

Option 1 (My proposal)

• Ban drizzle from OU
• Ban Sand Rush and Sand Strength
• Ban Garchomp

Option 2

• Ban Drizzle
• Ban Excadrill
• Ban Landorus
• Ban Garchomp

Option 3

• Ban drizzle
• Ban Sand stream
• Ban Drought

Im feeling option 1 and 3 but the consensus is rain is too powerful and "spammy" for a balanced metagame. For all options throw in shell smash to be banned. With option 1 the most least amount of pokemon get banned from standard OU without a complex ban.

[kaonohiokala]

Not exactly what I expected when I came into this topic.

I agree on one thing though: complex bans are completely idiotic.

Anyways, going over your post, it seems like something we would see more in a suspect topic, and not in a topic of its own. I'm assuming you already understand the whole testing process, right?

[Nobody Special]

I'm just curious because I'm new: Is Drizzle + SwSw legal when the Drizzle didn't come from your team? I loved abusing this when my opponent started with a Politoed and I immediately started with a SmashPass Gorebyss.

I've also seen a lot these posts whilst lurking and the general consensus seemed to be ban rain and sandstorm but not sun and hail. I personally like having weather because it brought up my favorites from old generations (Shiftry, Ninetales, Venusaur (hmm. They're all sun)) and sometimes rain and sandstorm was just as favorable to me as it was for my opponent.

[Glen ^^]

Let's go with Option 4:
Ban nothing?

[yaya0]

Originally Posted by Fat Nobody Special

I'm just curious because I'm new: Is Drizzle + SwSw legal when the Drizzle didn't come from your team? I loved abusing this when my opponent started with a Politoed and I immediately started with a SmashPass Gorebyss.

Yes, that is legal. You can have Drizzle or SwSw, but not both.

[KurashiDragon]

My option:

Ban Drizzle and Garchomp

Sand isn't broken without garchomp. Excadrill is a powerful sweeper but it's easily stopped before and sometimes after it sets up. Landlos sets up alot like Chomp without sand Veil. It's got nearly the same Speed and attack and Swords Dance Earthquake. However, it lacks sand veil which means it can abuse Sub hoping for a miss. It also doesn't have dragon stab so it can't abuser outrage. It does have Sand Force but it like garchomp, it can't abuse it's power properly with its base speed.

Excadrill and Landlos aren't broken even in sand.

Sand itself isn't broken either. It doesn't have the strength of Drizzle. With two weather starters, sand as an advantage over weather but 2 starters don't help against non-weather teams. What makes sand broken against non-weather teams?

Sand is pretty much like it was back in 4th gen apart from 2 more true OU abusers. It's not broken. It's annoying but it's not broken.

Garchomp and drizzle are the problem, not sand.

As for Shell Smash / Baton Pass I can see the problem there. Especially now that Espeon has Magic Mirror + Egg Moves. However, Espeon has problems with Priority and the combo itself has problems with taunt. Specificaly Prankster taunt. Whimsicott can stop this combo easily and resist 2 of the abuser's stab. (Gorybess and huntail) I personally have never had a problem with this combo. I'm neutral in this argument.

If you want my opinion of Complex bans in general I think they're a waste of time. They do nothing more than nerf things so we can keep in in their places. I think complex bans are more playing favorites than anything else. In the past people wanted to do the Aldaron Proposal because they still weren't sure if Drizzle was broken. I can understand that but now people know that Drizzle is either still broken or broken without Swift Swim. In the case of the former, ban Drizzle but in the case of the latter, to continue with the Aldaron Proposal is nothing more than wanting to keep Drizzle in OU. If anybody wants to do the latter why don't you just argue Blaziken be unbanned with Blaze. It's basically the same thing. Blaziken isn't broken with blaze, it's broken with Speed Boost. Drizzle isn't broken without Swift Swim.

Complex bans are nothing more than an excuse to keep something that's obviously broken in it's tier. It's not good for a healthy metagame.

[SlimMan]

My choice would be to ban Drought+Drizzle. I honestly find Sandstorm to be just fine and not-ban-worthy.
However, banning Sandstream would be foolish, IMO. There are literally 3 abusers, making it a completely viable option to go for the abusers, rather than the weather.
I do not feel this is the case with Drought and Drizzle. They would each require an entire series of bans to handle, which would be a negative thing to me.

[Parasol_Kirby]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

• Sand Veil and Sandstorm
  
  The last is a pretty controversial topic. My idea is simple. Blaziken is banned because of its ability (even though it has blaze) And garchomp is broken with its ability. So whats the difference? Why is blaziken so broken with blaze? Its almost issue of consistency. Ban X because of A and complex ban Y because we want to still have garchomp around because its fun to play with. Oh ok.

EXCELLENT point. If we can avoid banning Swift Swim OR Drizzle, but still ban Swift Swim AND Drizzle, why can't we make Blaze Blaziken legal?

Not that Blaze Blaziken would have...any impact on the metagame. But still, for consistency and precedent's sake.

[KurashiDragon]

Originally Posted by Fat SlimMan

My choice would be to ban Drought+Drizzle. I honestly find Sandstorm to be just fine and not-ban-worthy.
However, banning Sandstream would be foolish, IMO. There are literally 3 abusers, making it a completely viable option to go for the abusers, rather than the weather.
I do not feel this is the case with Drought and Drizzle. They would each require an entire series of bans to handle, which would be a negative thing to me.

Part of the reason we banned Blaziken was because it's an absolute monster in sun. Manaphy was banned because it's broken in Rain. Victini was tested in UU because it's broken in Sun. (Drought was banned from UU and Victini received a majority so it's being retested.) Weather is already at least partially responsible for banning some pokemon already. If the Aldaron Proposal is gone and Drizzle still isn't banned at least 2 more Swift Swim abusers will be banned to possibly balance Drizzle. Garchomp will be partially banned because of Sand Veil. If Drought wasn't banned Victini would likely be banned. Hail is even partially responsible for banning Kyurem from UU. All these bans and possible future bans are happening because weather is breaking these pokemon and people dont wanna get rid of weather.

[Curtains]

Originally Posted by Fat KurashiDragon

Part of the reason we banned Blaziken was because it's an absolute monster in sun. Manaphy was banned because it's broken in Rain. Victini was tested in UU because it's broken in Sun. (Drought was banned from UU and Victini received a majority so it's being retested.) Weather is already at least partially responsible for banning some pokemon already. If the Aldaron Proposal is gone and Drizzle still isn't banned at least 2 more Swift Swim abusers will be banned to possibly balance Drizzle. Garchomp will be partially banned because of Sand Veil. If Drought wasn't banned Victini would likely be banned. Hail is even partially responsible for banning Kyurem from UU. All these bans and possible future bans are happening because weather is breaking these pokemon and people dont wanna get rid of weather.

Venusaur and darmitan is good in the sun too. So is heatran and ninetails and all the other chlorophyll pokes. But they are not banned.

[SHUCKLE MAN]

To be honest, I'm really thinking we shoud just stick to banning Pokemon, rather than all these abilities and combinations and stuff.

Like in UU, just have Vulpix banned instead of Drought. In OU, just ban Kingdra or Politoed or whatever.

I'm all for banning as little as possible, but I think things are just getting too complicated. The ban lists are beginning to look quite stupid, with the massive paragraphs at the top detailing various combinations of Pokemon, abilities and hold items which can or cannot be used.

[lmitchell0012]

I don't think that sand rush and sand strength are issues. Excadrill has a hard counter in gliscor so he's not broken.

[DetroitLolcat]

Yeah, complex bans are a load of crap everyone knows that.

A blanket weather ban is a load of crap too. If a weather is found to be broken, then ban it. If we think Sand is too much, we ban it. If we find Drizzle to be broken, we ban it. We can either get rid of Drizzle or some Swift Swimmers, but we need to trash the Aldaron Proposal. I think now that we've had the Proposal for so long we should wait until we get a No Suspects metagame before we revise the Rain issue, but it seems that it won't be long before OU is balanced (IMO it already is) so we should be thinking about revising the Rain issue.

[SlimMan]

Originally Posted by Fat KurashiDragon

Part of the reason we banned Blaziken was because it's an absolute monster in sun. Manaphy was banned because it's broken in Rain. Victini was tested in UU because it's broken in Sun. (Drought was banned from UU and Victini received a majority so it's being retested.) Weather is already at least partially responsible for banning some pokemon already. If the Aldaron Proposal is gone and Drizzle still isn't banned at least 2 more Swift Swim abusers will be banned to possibly balance Drizzle. Garchomp will be partially banned because of Sand Veil. If Drought wasn't banned Victini would likely be banned. Hail is even partially responsible for banning Kyurem from UU. All these bans and possible future bans are happening because weather is breaking these pokemon and people dont wanna get rid of weather.

That's basically what I just said.

P.S.- Garchomp is like Blaziken, because it's ability is what pushes it over the line (for most people) and it works best in a certain weather. So we should just ban Garchomp. This is what we did to Blaziken, and to all broken Pokemon in our past. Not "partially ban" it.

Originally Posted by Fat Parasol_Kirby

[/LIST]EXCELLENT point. If we can avoid banning Swift Swim OR Drizzle, but still ban Swift Swim AND Drizzle, why can't we make Blaze Blaziken legal?

Not that Blaze Blaziken would have...any impact on the metagame. But still, for consistency and precedent's sake.

Getting Blaze Blaziken back would break precedent and be inconsistent. Not the other way around.

Drizzle+SwSw hampers what you can put on a team. SB Blaziken hampers what you can put on a Pokemon. See the difference?
It's bad enough to nerf a team, but nerfing single 'mons is absolutely crossing the line, in my eyes.

And as for why we can't make Blaze Blaziken legal:
1) A majority of people think it would be a bad idea.
2) Philip/reach told us so.

Originally Posted by Fat lmitchell0012

I don't think that sand rush and sand strength are issues. Excadrill has a hard counter in gliscor so he's not broken.

"Kyogre has a hard counter in Gastrodon, so he's not broken". <- No, just no.
The counter has to be viable in the metagame (Gliscor is; but Gastrodon, for example is not viable in Ubers) for it to really count. And even if a Pokemon only has one viable counter, then it better have a good number of viable checks, or it's probably still broken.

I agree with you, that Excadrill is not broken, but your logic for why it's not broken is terrible.

[KurashiDragon]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

Venusaur and darmitan is good in the sun too. So is heatran and ninetails and all the other chlorophyll pokes. But they are not banned.

What's your point?

I'm saying that the reason why Blaziken, Manaphy, and Kyurem was banned was partially or practically because of weather. Swift Swim users we're broken in Drizzle but instead of banning Drizzle they made a complex ban. If the Swift Swim users became legal with Rain again either Drizzle would be banned (which would be the correct move) or multiple Swift Swim users would be banned. These are all the obvious broken pokemon in weather.

I also have no personal opinion of Sun. I don't find it to be broken but I haven't faced it enough so I have no personal opinion.

P.S.- Garchomp is like Blaziken, because it's ability is what pushes it over the line (for most people) and it works best in a certain weather. So we should just ban Garchomp. This is what we did to Blaziken, and to all broken Pokemon in our past. Not "partially ban" it.

I really really really hope this is what happens. It would be hypocritical to do a complex ban on Garchomp.

[Bruteboii]

Originally Posted by Fat SHUCKLE MAN

To be honest, I'm really thinking we shoud just stick to banning Pokemon, rather than all these abilities and combinations and stuff.

Like in UU, just have Vulpix banned instead of Drought. In OU, just ban Kingdra or Politoed or whatever.

I'm all for banning as little as possible, but I think things are just getting too complicated. The ban lists are beginning to look quite stupid, with the massive paragraphs at the top detailing various combinations of Pokemon, abilities and hold items which can or cannot be used.

I agree. We should ban Poké's not combinations. And as much as I hate to say it purely for my love of Garchomp, that it should be banned. It did well in Ubers before, it still will, and OU will miss it, but Garchomp should go. (Sorry Garchomp :'( much love)

[Curtains]

Originally Posted by Fat KurashiDragon

What's your point?

I'm saying that the reason why Blaziken, Manaphy, and Kyurem was banned was partially or practically because of weather. Swift Swim users we're broken in Drizzle but instead of banning Drizzle they made a complex ban. If the Swift Swim users became legal with Rain again either Drizzle would be banned (which would be the correct move) or multiple Swift Swim users would be banned. These are all the obvious broken pokemon in weather.

I also have no personal opinion of Sun. I don't find it to be broken but I haven't faced it enough so I have no personal opinion.

I dont think kyurem is banned? Blaziken was banned because SD + speed boost + flare blitz/hp ice/filler ko'ed the entire metagame.

[BurningMan]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

Venusaur and darmitan is good in the sun too. So is heatran and ninetails and all the other chlorophyll pokes. But they are not banned.

because Hi jump Kick still hurts in the rain and he is fast in sand even without sun.

Honestly if drizzle should go, so should every other weather. If you ban the strongest force now, we will have to ban the next one until we ban all weather and then happiely can proceed by banning Lati@s/Mence and possibly quite a lot of other things.

[KurashiDragon]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

I dont think kyurem is banned? Blaziken was banned because SD + speed boost + flare blitz/hp ice/filler ko'ed the entire metagame.

Kyurem is banned in UU. Partially because Draco Meteor is such a beast move in uu but also because Kyurem's 100 Acc stab Blizzard combined with it's Draco Meteor is just way to overpowered.

I understand why Blaziken was banned. I also saw that another reason that Blaziken was banned was because Stab Flare Blitz in the sun was what allowed it to get through what limited counters it had.

@BurningMan

Sun would likely become stronger if Drizzle were banned but as I keep stating Sand is the anti-weather. It's stronger against weather but isn't overpowered against non-weather teams. Hail is just lol no matter what.

[Bruteboii]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

I dont think kyurem is banned? Blaziken was banned because SD + speed boost + flare blitz/hp ice/filler ko'ed the entire metagame.

Ya might wanna throw in HJK or another Fighting move, otherwise he's still blocked by Heatran, but I see your point.

[Curtains]

Originally Posted by Fat KurashiDragon

I understand why Blaziken was banned. I also saw that another reason that Blaziken was banned was because Stab Flare Blitz in the sun was what allowed it to get through what limited counters it had.

Don't play much UU didnt know he was banned there. But anyway If it were sand vs sun i feel that sand would win most of the time. I do feel that we should ban drought for the same reasons as drizzle.

[Miscellaneous]

Alternatively you could just take whatever steps to make each metagame as diverse and enjoyable as possible. There's nothing inherently wrong with the ban; rain is nerfed, because a function of its versatility and therefore overall effectiveness is nerfed. However, rain is not ineffective or inviable. The drizzle + SS ban is an example of making the metagame better without limiting its versatility.

The only true disadvantage of complex bans is their complexity; and this point is mainly for newer players trying to get into competitive battling.

Banning a pokemon or ability often has severe knock-on effects for a metagame, this disruptance is not as strong when compared to a softer ban. It's a simple; what is broken > how can we fix or balance it > what method is best to fix it for the metagame in general. In this case; ridiculously fast and powerful SS rain sweepers with unlimited rain > ban SS + drizzle or the other options > SS + drizzle being best because it fixes the problem whilst maintaining the options of drizzle, SS and the pokemon in OU, which maintains versatility and has small knock on implications for the rest of the OU metagame.

[KurashiDragon]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

Don't play much UU didnt know he was banned there. But anyway If it were sand vs sun i feel that sand would win most of the time. I do feel that we should ban drought for the same reasons as drizzle.

Meh I just don't feel Drought is as broken as Drizzle. This is because, as I said, I don't have very much experience against Drought teams. I've seen a ton of Drizzle teams and Drizzle teams completely overshadow Drought teams. Drought could be broken if Drizzle were removed but I don't know that and wouldn't until Drizzle is gone. Until then I'm neutral to Drought.

[Glen ^^]

What's this talk about "there's not many sand abusers"?
Anything that doesn't take damage from it is an abuser. It doesn't need to have an ability to abuse it. Please stop being biased against rain and sun just because there are very specific bonuses related to them.

The damage the enemy takes every turn makes difference, even more when combined with Life Orb recoil + entry hazards. For example, a LO Infernape switching into Spikes and attacking ends the turn with 28% less health. Lucario with only 16%.
Please don't go on banning Drizzle and Drought and making this into DP 2.0, a steel fest.

[KurashiDragon]

Originally Posted by Fat Glen ^^

What's this talk about "there's not many sand abusers"?
Anything that doesn't take damage from it is an abuser. It doesn't need to have an ability to abuse it. Please stop being biased against rain and sun just because there are very specific bonuses related to them.

The damage the enemy takes every turn makes difference, even more when combined with Life Orb recoil + entry hazards. For example, a LO Infernape switching into Spikes and attacking ends the turn with 28% less health. Lucario with only 16%.
Please don't go on banning Drizzle and Drought and making this into DP 2.0, a steel fest.

What's the difference between that happening this gen and that happening last gen?