(Data) Data Audit Thread (Contains all System Data)

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat Chomper The Sharptooth

If I bought a Smeargle, could I use its sketches to copy moves off of my own Pokemon? If he's able to sketch my starter's starter moves I'd figure he could use his move counters to sketch other Pokemon on my team's moves outside of battle but it doesn't explicitly say he could in the OP. I only ask because this may affect my decision about getting a Smeargle, with his type of stats it might be a little difficult to set aside turns to use sketch and it'll be very challenging to get the moves you want without arranging staged battles (for the purpose of getting Smeargle moves)

Smeargle can only Sketch 10 of your starting Pokemon's starting moves outside of battle. Inside of a battle you can Sketch your partner Pokemon's attacks in a Doubles battle if you wanted to learn more specific attacks your Pokemon have access to. All of Smeargle's Move Counters invariably end up being more Permanent Sketch slots.

Basically aside from the starting moves from starting mons thing, Smeargle operates exacly how it does in-game if you want to get the good stuff.

[FinnRagetti]

Im very intrigued now by the stat differentials. Im just cataloging all the data (maybe making a super universal calculator that accounts for normalized damage and not factoring in spread attacks/partial hits/terrain/etc.) and I was noticing how each pokemon, statwise, changes overtime and comparison to the competitve metagame.

Some pokemon lose their viability due to the adjusted stat ranges, such as Porygon2. Assuming "Evolution stone" doesnt exist here, Here is the porygon line transition.
Porygon (90-3-3-3-3)-->Porygon2(100-3-3-4-3)-->Porygon-Z(100-3-3-5-3). Speed increases over time, but i cant remember the numbers off the top of my head. Porygon2 still has his ability (Trace), but if the match has no abilities, then Porygon-Z is superior on all accounts to Porygon2. Porygon2 in the competitve metagame has the advantage of higher defense making it an awesome tank, but in this case, it does not tank as well.

I've look at all 1st gen and later gen evolutions of 1st gen pokemon (non-legendaries) and the following pokemon have the same stat ratio of Porygon2 (not factoring speed/HP)

Pidgeot, Fearow, Nidoqueen, Nidoking, Clefable, Crobat, Parasect, Venomoth, Persian, Golduck, Poliwrath, Dewgong, Lickilicky, Kingdra, Seaking, Lapras

Bolded are pokemon that are OU or BL in the DPPt metagame. Im kinda surprised to see Kingdra this low statwise, but since we've yet to see any evolved pokemon in the metagame compete, I cannot say whether or not Kingdra looses its edge on the metagame.

Im going to experiment with something next to see how the lines of Pokemon viability works. Aka, can NU pokemon be more useful in the ASB metagame than OU pokemon?

[MK Ultra]

Something to bear in mind is that Kingdra isn't OU because of its stats - 75/95/95/95/95/85 - but because of its typing and ability.

[mewtwo15026]

Since there are no Legendary Pokemon allowed, should there be a way to access their signature moves? I'm talking about the following:

Psycho Break (Mewtwo)
Aeroblast (Lugia)
Sacred Fire (Ho-Oh)
Doom Desire (Jirachi)
Psycho Boost (Deoxys)
Roar of Time (Dialga)
Spacial Rend (Palkia)
Magma Storm (Heatran)
Crush Grip (Regigigas)
Shadow Force (Giratina)
Lunar Dance (Cresselia)
Heart Swap (Manaphy)
Dark Void (Darkrai)
Seed Flare (Shaymin)
Judgment (Arceus)
Blaze Judgment
V-Generate (Victini)
Sacred Sword (Musketeer trio)
Cross Thunder
Lightning Strike (Zekrom)
Cross Fire
Blue Fire (Reshiram)
Frozen World
Freeze Bolt
Cold Flare (Kyurem)
Sword of Mystery (Keldeo)
Ancient Song (Meloetta)
Techno Buster (Genosect)

[Tortferngatr]

Originally Posted by Fat FinnRagetti

Im very intrigued now by the stat differentials. Im just cataloging all the data (maybe making a super universal calculator that accounts for normalized damage and not factoring in spread attacks/partial hits/terrain/etc.) and I was noticing how each pokemon, statwise, changes overtime and comparison to the competitve metagame.

Some pokemon lose their viability due to the adjusted stat ranges, such as Porygon2. Assuming "Evolution stone" doesnt exist here, Here is the porygon line transition.
Porygon (90-3-3-3-3)-->Porygon2(100-3-3-4-3)-->Porygon-Z(100-3-3-5-3). Speed increases over time, but i cant remember the numbers off the top of my head. Porygon2 still has his ability (Trace), but if the match has no abilities, then Porygon-Z is superior on all accounts to Porygon2. Porygon2 in the competitve metagame has the advantage of higher defense making it an awesome tank, but in this case, it does not tank as well.

I've look at all 1st gen and later gen evolutions of 1st gen pokemon (non-legendaries) and the following pokemon have the same stat ratio of Porygon2 (not factoring speed/HP)

Pidgeot, Fearow, Nidoqueen, Nidoking, Clefable, Crobat, Parasect, Venomoth, Persian, Golduck, Poliwrath, Dewgong, Lickilicky, Kingdra, Seaking, Lapras

Bolded are pokemon that are OU or BL in the DPPt metagame. Im kinda surprised to see Kingdra this low statwise, but since we've yet to see any evolved pokemon in the metagame compete, I cannot say whether or not Kingdra looses its edge on the metagame.

Im going to experiment with something next to see how the lines of Pokemon viability works. Aka, can NU pokemon be more useful in the ASB metagame than OU pokemon?

Hmm.

The stat builds probably have something to do with it. Speed isn't so critical anymore-and the fact that 61 base defense on cart and 94 base defense on cart both = 3 defense on CAP ASB means that even Pokemon with sucky cart defense that don't have REALLY sucky cart defense (i.e. Ninjask) get at least half-useful bulk.

Additionally, you have things like Gyarados, who fall JUST below the 5 star cutoff (and Haxorus-who falls only 7 points away from +1 awesome.)

EDIT: Hmm. By the way, why compile legendary stats/abilities/signature moves if they aren't going to be used? Is this some kind of Chekhov's gun (Takuto/whatever his English name is has a Darkrai and a Latios, so there's anime precedent for owning weaker legendaries at high tiers of play), or is this just consistency?

[TotalPotato]

Well, don't forget that the moves can be called through Metronome. As for the other stuff, I don't know, but maybe legendaries will be involved in an RP or tournament someday...

(Takuto's English name is Tobias btw)

[Chomper The Sharptooth]

I'd personally like to see an "Ubers" draft battle where neither trainer actually owns their mons. Between players who would do it justice of course.

[Engineer Pikachu]

There was a period on IRC a couple days ago (shameless advertising get on IRC you people reading this) where we were trawling through the stats of Pokemon, and we found that Muk and Gyarados are identical except for HP and Speed.

Also, stats don't really matter too much. Ignoring W/R, each star increase is only doing an extra 1.5 damage each round.

[FinnRagetti]

Originally Posted by Fat Engineer Pikachu

There was a period on IRC a couple days ago (shameless advertising get on IRC you people reading this) where we were trawling through the stats of Pokemon, and we found that Muk and Gyarados are identical except for HP and Speed.

Also, stats don't really matter too much. Ignoring W/R, each star increase is only doing an extra 1.5 damage each round.

Basically, every pokemon is equally viable. :D. Minus a few.

[mewtwo15026]

It's funny--it seems to me that in the anime, size matters more than Speed. I don't just mean bulk--it seems that Steelix and Onix initially have the upper hand in many of the battles that they're in.

Yeah, Tobias had Darkrai and Latios, which are both Ubers (although the latter is arguably so without Soul Dew), Noland had befriended Articuno to the point that it would accept commands, and Brandon had the Regi trio. At least make the Base 600-and-belows available somehow.

[Deck Knight]

As far as legends, I am banking more on tradition but the reason their moves are included is because they can be Metrenomed and at some point I think they could be used in challenge events. They might eventually even be tournament prizes.

Either way they won't be available to the general population.

Sleep Talk probably works best by just assigning a number to each attack in a list and randomizing based on that number. I'm not totally beyond changing its mechanics, but it will go up for discussion in the next SotG.

[Acklow]

Small typo found: Under Pokemon Stats, Shinx is described to have "Def: &&" and not Def:**.
Sunkern's Speed is labeled "Spe: **" and not the default 30 Spe.

*Just a few errors I found in the text, so don't mind me* =)

[mewtwo15026]

Tournament prizes, eh? In that case, I need to get some Evo Counters. XD

See, I'm starting a fanfic (think of me what you will) and two of the main characters are a Mewtwo and a Rayquaza. Though I doubt anything with a BST higher than 600 will see the light of day in this league, having such a theme team would be cool.

I would DEFINITELY like to see an event match against Mewtwo and his clones of your team.

PROTIP for using Metronome: Sort the moves so you don't need to count how many there are. You don't want to count that many of anything. Maybe RNG a Type or a letter first, then a move of that type or that starts with that letter.

[TotalPotato]

Uproar should have 9 power.

[Objection]

In the Zangoose stat change examples, Life found an inconsistency:

17:41 Life: Taunt ~ Swords Dance ~ Slash. At the time of Slash, Zangoose will have +2 Attack. At the the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +1 Attack. At the start of round 3, Zangoose will have no stat boosts.
17:41 Objection: That's a 2-stage boost
17:41 Objection: Swords Dance
17:41 Life: But here's my problem
17:41 Life: Slash ~ Swords Dance ~ Swords Dance. Zangoose will have no boosts at the time of Slash. At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +4 Attack. At the start of the third round, Zangoose will have +3 Attack. [This happens because the round ends before two actions after the initial Swords Dance pass, so the boost is kept in its entirety for the next round.]
17:42 Life: Do you see the inconsistancy?
17:42 Objection: Looks consistent to me
17:42 Objection: oh wait
17:42 Life: How so?
17:42 Objection: you're right
17:42 Objection: there is an inconsistency
17:42 Life: It's very inconsistant
17:43 Objection: How come the one with two swords dances doesn't lose any attack boosts in the next round, but the one with one swords dance does?
17:43 Life: Exactly
17:43 Objection: Even though neither one has swords dance first
17:43 Life: And this expounds on it
17:43 Life: Swords Dance ~ Swords Dance ~ Swords Dance. Zangoose will have a +5 Attack boost at the start of the next round. (Note: if you use Claw Sharpen as your first action, you will lose the Accuracy boost for the next round. Claw Sharpening on your second or third action leaves Zangoose with +4 Atk / +1 Accuracy rather than +4 Attack for Round 2.)
17:44 Life: That makes sense
17:44 Objection: yeah ...
17:44 Life: The second and third cases go together
17:44 Life: But it's inconsistant with the first case

This was part of an argument about the following:

If a move that reduces a stat by 1 (eg, Growl) is used at the start of a round, does the stat reduction carry over to the next round? The summary suggests that it doesn't but some of the examples suggest that it does.

[Lord Jesseus]

So it occured to me today that, unless I'm mistaken, with the use of Encore a faster pokemon can force its opponent to repeat a move FOREVER.

eg
Vulpix Uses Hypnosis
Abra uses Encore (unaffected by hypnosis since eye contact is required)
Vulpix Uses Hypnosis (forced action #1)
Abra attacks
Vulpix Uses Hypnosis (forced action #2)
Now that encore is complete
Abra uses Encore
Vulpix Uses Hypnosis (forced action #1)...

This is of course excruciatingly unfair. Should there be some rule in place that prevents this, eg Encore can only be used once per round?

[LifeAdmiral]

Originally Posted by Fat Lord Jesseus

So it occured to me today that, unless I'm mistaken, with the use of Encore a faster pokemon can force its opponent to repeat a move FOREVER.

eg
Vulpix Uses Hypnosis
Abra uses Encore (unaffected by hypnosis since eye contact is required)
Vulpix Uses Hypnosis (forced action #1)
Abra attacks
Vulpix Uses Hypnosis (forced action #2)
Now that encore is complete
Abra uses Encore
Vulpix Uses Hypnosis (forced action #1)...

This is of course excruciatingly unfair. Should there be some rule in place that prevents this, eg Encore can only be used once per round?

This and Taunt. In 2/3 of my current battles, Taunt has been in continuous use on my guys.

I don't know if you guys have noticed but Taunt neuters someone who relies on Status Effects to leave their mark (my Vulpix is one of those). That's fine... except it shouldn't be in continuous use so that over 50% of my movepool is inaccessible for the entire match.

[Objection]

As one of the people abusing Taunt's power, I agree that Taunt needs to be nerfed. Perhaps limit its use to once every 4 rounds or something. If Encore is similarly overpowered, then perhaps implement a similar measure for that.

[Ducklett Stare]

Has any thought been given to adding perks for keeping a Pokemon un-evolved? I bring it up, because I'd love to use my namesake, Ducklett, in a competitive capacity. However, Ducklett loses all of his benign badassery as soon as he evolves into Swanna, which makes me not want to use him. What if there was a system where, having reached the requisite number of Evo counters, a Pokemon could gain the stats and movepool of their evolution (barring moves that don't make sense, I.E Shroomish learning Mach Punch).

The number one reason that a system like this would be implemented would be so that people could truly use their favorites (Ducklett <3). Perhaps to add a bit of decision making complexity to it (and to make it easier on the designers), by keeping your Pokemon at Stage 1/2/whatever, they completely lock themselves out of their evolved movepools. Offering compelling choices is good for any game, so making someone choose between using a 'favorite' vs. using something with a wider movepool, while still offering competitive viability either way... all I'm sayin' is, think about it. Cause I wanna sweep some dudes with Ducklett :P

[Dark Pulse]

^

how about adding the insentive of "postponed" evolution (you can't use moves a pokemon would have learned if you evolve it too early)

like in the game, if you keep it from evolving, it learns better moves earlier [monferno flare blitz @ lvl 49, infernape @ lvl 53? [bad example, but you know what I mean]

[Ducklett Stare]

The problem with that though, is that as part of CAP ASB, a Pokemon can learn any move from it's base movepool as soon as it has the requisite counters for it. Perhaps going off that idea, an unevolved Pokemon with enough Evo Counters can choose to get Egg Moves/TMs, but require less Move Counters to obtain them. I believe you need what, 2 move counters to get a TM? So an underevolved Pokemon with enough evo counters to evolve can instead choose to spend only 1 move counter, but still get the move. I dunno, I think it's worth exploring.

[Dark Pulse]

^ I like that Idea, but how about going one step further...

perchance cash in evo counters for move counters, this may be a bit startling, but rather than providing discounts when you have enough counters, you can swap an evo counter for 1 or even 2 move counters. This will promote the idea of postponing evolution.

I dunno, just a thought

[Tortferngatr]

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Pulse

^ I like that Idea, but how about going one step further...

perchance cash in evo counters for move counters, this may be a bit startling, but rather than providing discounts when you have enough counters, you can swap an evo counter for 1 or even 2 move counters. This will promote the idea of postponing evolution.

I dunno, just a thought

Or, better yet, encourage people to evolve more quickly so that they can rapidly access all their moves with no consequences once they can't evolve anymore.

The primary benefit to evolution in this ASB is generally access to an improved movepool from what I've seen-Abomasnow has Earthquake, something Snover lacks. Syclant gets Focus Blast, Syclar doesn't. Galvantula gets Thunder...see where I'm going with this?

[Dark Pulse]

true, but if you see the above arguments, some people don't want to evolve, and some pokemon have similar movepools at lower evolutions

[Tortferngatr]

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Pulse

true, but if you see the above arguments, some people don't want to evolve, and some pokemon have similar movepools at lower evolutions

Alright then. While I do question the sanity of Ash and Pikachu alike before the BW series (and THAT only because Ash uses Oshawott and Pantslizard,) I see your point some people would not want to evolve their Pokemon. I will tolerate this.

You do see the point that from a competitive standpoint this would generally favor those who still choose to evolve their Pokemon, however-and that I honestly feel not evolving your Pokemon should carry a competitive disadvantage.