np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

[cosmicexplorer]

Originally Posted by Fat Unholy Confessions

Water Absorb x500
Vaporeon <3 Great Wish passing and it's immune to the only thing left of Rain.

It's all going to be banned regardless. Crippling the only thing reliably good about Rain.
Starmie? Get T-Tar in. Instantly dead.
Kerudio? No idea.
Tornelos? Get T-Tar in. Water/Flying, right?
Dragonite? Get T-Tar in. Instantly dead if Scarfed.

Banning SS (the only really attractive part of Rain offense) from all tiers was just furthering the point. Furthermore, the proposal was essentially "I don't want [xxx] but we NEED [xxx]" for at least five sentences.

Scarftar Pursuit versus Starmie staying in: 58% - 69.5%
Starmie Specs Hydro Pump in sandstorm: 95.3% - 112.9%
Oops.
Tornelos? There's this cool thing called switching out when you are at a disadvantage. That's not even mentioning the fact that many Voltlos/Tornelos use Agility sets, and almost all have Focus Blast, which easily OHKOs TTar. Dragonite is almost exclusively used as an Agility sweeper in my experience, and with Roost and Multi-Scale, it can easily stall TTar out of Stone Edge PP.

All of the common rain sweepers can, if not easily, at least without much effort, get past TTar and proceed to destroy the rest of your team with their boosted Water attacks, heightened accuracy of Thunder and Hurricane, and loss of Fire weakness. Just insulting others without proving your point doesn't make you any less wrong.

It's a good playstyle for now. Until all the Sand users want it banned. Like they did for SS. They neutered it completely. Kingdra fell from great sweeper to 100% worthless. When a Water-type considers HP Fire because he can't use his GOOD strategies, we have problems.

"All the Sand users wanted it banned."
That's completely and utterly true. Why else would someone want to ban rain, if not to make their own playstyle easier?

[Ace Emerald]

Originally Posted by Fat Unholy Confessions

It's a good playstyle for now. Until all the Sand users want it banned. Like they did for SS. They neutered it completely. Kingdra fell from great sweeper to 100% worthless. When a Water-type considers HP Fire because he can't use his GOOD strategies, we have problems.

Do you really think the reason smogon nerfed rain was because smogon likes sand? Do you think smogon just puts whatever it wants in whatever tier it wants and enforces complex bans becuase that's what it wants? Rain was nerfed because it was really over powered and it dominated the metagame. And as many people have stated, rain is still good.

[Unholy Confessions]

Things dominated the Gen 4 metagame too. Were those banned? Nope. Since when is "Swift Swim = BAN'D" complex? Only a fool is running Rain Dance singularly, considering it's timed and too easy to counter.

[AccidentalGreed]

Originally Posted by Fat Unholy Confessions

Things dominated the Gen 4 metagame too. Were those banned? Nope.

Because a number of them could be easily be checked by a wide range of Pokemon. Tyranitar? Too many weaknesses and weakness to Scizor. Scizor? Resistances and physical walls easily take care of it, like Gyarados? Gyarados? Rotom. The circle goes on and on and on. Most of them just weren't up to the Suspect test back then. One usually forces a metagame to run specific checks/counters, which usually isn't healthy (I mean Cresselia for Salamence?)

[XienZo]

There's the fact that we're using an entirely different system and philosophy to ban things in this generation versus the last one...

[alphatron]

Well, with the way the metagame is shaping up, I'm seeing people actually run Azumarill to handle Landorus and excadrill. Considering I run niether on the teams I actually use, Azumarill has been dead wieght every time I see it. The steels used to pivot into Latios are actually useful otherwise. Azumarill? Not so much.

[Nanoswine]

@Unholy Confessions: Would you please play the game before posting again? If you think Sand is so OP, why is the #1 person on the ladder (before the reset) using a Drizzle team? Why is pretty much everybody saying no suspects this round? And Swift Swim is not banned, Rain Dance is actually a pretty decent playstyle. It totally shuts down Sand and Sun, contrary to what you're saying. A well planned team won't be built so that Tyranitar can just waltz in and change the weather.

[Fluffy Otters]

Originally Posted by Fat masterful

1)I believe it was Atheno who suggested a switch-in, then DD, then roost strategy, and that is beat by literally anything with an ice attack, essentially forcing you to take out the opponent, leaving you at +1, and in a worse position than a Mence who could have been at +1 after the free turn anyway.
2)Dnite will not be taking Ice Beams without multi-scale or max SpD, which would mean you would need even MORE DDs to do any damage or to outspeed anything.
3)Mence is a much better mixed attacker, it has higher SpA and can run fire blast on the DD set, which Dnite CAN'T.
4)Dragonite and Mence have THE EXACT SAME TYPING, essentially identical defenses, and have the exact same switch0ins because of that

Actually, special defensive DD Dragonite is pretty good with that special defense investment since it still takes incredibly strong special moves to get through it and could still be fairly fast after Dragon Dance (after Dragon Dance, Latios and most dragons aren't going to come in since he'd outspeed them) and it seems to be divided between either very slow things, or very fast things. Dragonite will outspeed the slow things after a Dragon Dance and the fast things can't really ohko him without Icebeam/Draco Meteor which with Multi-Scale up (while it's best not to assume it's always up, it's also good to not assume it's always down) won't kill. I'm going to test this new spread out but a fast special defensive bulky Dragon Dancer with 120 hp/12 Atk/184 SDef/192 spd Careful will have quite a bit of special bulk as well as faster than 115 base speeds names Starmie after Dragon Dance and is certainly more special defensive than 248 hp/min.

Isn't Salamence taken out by anything with an Ice attack that's faster as well? Dragonite can take those Hp Ices very well and after 2 Dragon Dances is beginning to hit very hard that little stops it from sweeping anyhow. I think both Dragonite and Salamence are good Dragon Dancers, just that Dragonite is likely better this time around.

[fairytale]

Originally Posted by Fat XienZo

There's the fact that we're using an entirely different system and philosophy to ban things in this generation versus the last one...

Go on...

On the subject of rain being "neutered" or whatever, I still find it to be a great playstyle and honestly it still has way more benefits than sand IMO. Sand has Dory and Randorosu (don't know English names yet, sorry) and Special Def for rock types. Rain has Dry Skin pokemon, boosted water moves, 100% accurate thunder/hurricane, hydration, and the ability to neutralize or lessen fire weakness. Way more viable pokemon can take advantage of these things than can take advantage of the sand, a well built rain team is still way scarier to me than a well built sand team. When people used to say "Rain gives you a team of Doryuuzus" in the swift swim days, it was only a slight exaggeration.

Also, I think the idea that smogon just prefers sand (for whatever reason) is absurd. There was a lot of Sand in gen 4, yes, but I'd hardly say it dominated. It wasn't a big deal because 4th gen sand didn't provide anywhere even close to the benefits Sand/Sun/Rain provide this generation.

[capefeather]

Things dominated the Gen 4 metagame too. Were those banned? Nope. Since when is "Swift Swim = BAN'D" complex? Only a fool is running Rain Dance singularly, considering it's timed and too easy to counter.

Could you please quit it with your wild accusations? Thanks. Contrary to what you may believe, the Swift Swim + Drizzle combo ban was placed to prevent a cascade of bans from happening. Even then, when Aldaron proposed it (and ensoriki proposed it in the Round 2 thread earlier), it was met with some rather harsh criticism. Eventually, we realized that it would be a lot better than the headache of banning individual Swift Swimmers or the dangerous prospect of banning Drizzle entirely. There's almost no actual substance to your posts, so I can't think of any further retort other than...

Main team used: Slightly improved Rain team
Record with said team: 4-1
High-profile threats: 2 Blaziken, 3 Latios, 1 Reuniclus/Latias/Politoed

Comments:
So I set off to improve my bad teams. The Dragonite team still sucks (I think I need to replace Gliscor with a Steel), and even my Landorus/Reuniclus team is starting to suck, but my rain team... wow. All I did was replace Latios with Tornadus, and now the team is instantly great. I'm almost reminded of the days when Manaphy filled that slot; it's just that epic. The one loss was because I got cocky and tried to OHKO a Togekiss but failed, and the Togekiss used Thunder Wave :( So yeah, right now I'm starting to respect Tornadus a lot more than Latios. A bit late to the Tornadus party, I suppose, but eh. The worst part about it imo is, as far as nicknames go, its male gender is a hindrance due to my wanting to call it Barbariccia :( I'm serious.

I also made a team containing Stoutland for the lulz (Tri Badge gym leader team lol), and it's surprisingly not as made of suck as I thought it would be. Getting walled by Steels is eh, and I'm still quite open to the idea that I'm better off with Excadrill in that slot, but for now, Stoutland is there. (Actually, Excadrill could have saved me against a +2 Speed Blaziken... Oh, well. That team also had Disable Gengar wtf.)

Also I've been seeing a LOT of Azumarill. Pain in the ass for my Sand teams X(

[masterful]

Originally Posted by Fat Fluffy Otters

Actually, special defensive DD Dragonite is pretty good with that special defense investment since it still takes incredibly strong special moves to get through it and could still be fairly fast after Dragon Dance (after Dragon Dance, Latios and most dragons aren't going to come in since he'd outspeed them) and it seems to be divided between either very slow things, or very fast things. Dragonite will outspeed the slow things after a Dragon Dance and the fast things can't really ohko him without Icebeam/Draco Meteor which with Multi-Scale up (while it's best not to assume it's always up, it's also good to not assume it's always down) won't kill. I'm going to test this new spread out but a fast special defensive bulky Dragon Dancer with 120 hp/12 Atk/184 SDef/192 spd Careful will have quite a bit of special bulk as well as faster than 115 base speeds names Starmie after Dragon Dance and is certainly more special defensive than 248 hp/min.
Isn't Salamence taken out by anything with an Ice attack that's faster as well? Dragonite can take those Hp Ices very well and after 2 Dragon Dances is beginning to hit very hard that little stops it from sweeping anyhow. I think both Dragonite and Salamence are good Dragon Dancers, just that Dragonite is likely better this time around.

Here's the problem with that. Anything slightly bulky with a physical SE move can beat you pretty much no problem. As you are forced to run Dragon Claw and Fire Punch to beat Nat and have a STAB, you will be doing very little with only 12 EVs, meaning you need probably at least 3 DDs to be sweeping anything. Meanwhile, a Landlos, T-tar, Hippo, etc can come in and Stone Edge/Ice Fang you to death no problem. And if you're running Roost to take advantage of Multi-scale, you need at the very least 4 turns of set-up to be sweeping any team, or even a few pokes. All that time for a possible sweep isn't too great an idea. Mence, on the other hand, can come in, immediately threaten with its massive offensive power and coverage, set up only once, and sweep any team not carrying Scarf Starmie or ScarfChomp (etc). All that work for a "bulky" sweep is so incredibly not worth the time and effort, not to mention the free turns you're giving your opponent. Dragonite is good for stall, but as of now, Mence far outclasses it as a DDer.

[IcyMan28]

Originally Posted by Fat Fluffy Otters

Actually, special defensive DD Dragonite is pretty good with that special defense investment since it still takes incredibly strong special moves to get through it and could still be fairly fast after Dragon Dance (after Dragon Dance, Latios and most dragons aren't going to come in since he'd outspeed them) and it seems to be divided between either very slow things, or very fast things. Dragonite will outspeed the slow things after a Dragon Dance and the fast things can't really ohko him without Icebeam/Draco Meteor which with Multi-Scale up (while it's best not to assume it's always up, it's also good to not assume it's always down) won't kill. I'm going to test this new spread out but a fast special defensive bulky Dragon Dancer with 120 hp/12 Atk/184 SDef/192 spd Careful will have quite a bit of special bulk as well as faster than 115 base speeds names Starmie after Dragon Dance and is certainly more special defensive than 248 hp/min.

Isn't Salamence taken out by anything with an Ice attack that's faster as well? Dragonite can take those Hp Ices very well and after 2 Dragon Dances is beginning to hit very hard that little stops it from sweeping anyhow. I think both Dragonite and Salamence are good Dragon Dancers, just that Dragonite is likely better this time around.

At +2, this Dragonite is 10% weaker, approximately, than +1 LO Salamence. It is also slower. It does this so that it can gain special bulk, fair enough, but it is still 2HKOd by Vaporeon's uninvested Ice Beam (which is doing more than Roost can heal regardless), so I'm not really sure what the point of investing in all that bulk is if you aren't running Light Screen alongside it.

Yeah Dragonite has Multi-Scale and bulk but honestly the fact that it requires Leftovers and no hazards up makes it pretty situational. "Magic Mirror" is actually pretty easy to get around as all the users of Stealth Rock can cripple Espeon pretty bad, and Xatu shares weaknesses with Dragonite. Salamence > Dragonite unless we're talking about the rain Agility sweeper.

[jrrrrrrr]

I for one love this metagame, the only thing I would even consider nominating is Latios...just because of the sheer number of times I've brought a scarf Latios in, taken hardly any damage because of its awesome typing, and then OHKOd the other mon without getting hit again. It can be played around, and sometimes it's a liability, but it is such a great offensive tool that it would be foolish not to use.

Reuniclus has proven to be disappointing (outclassed by Mew, except for TR). Mew is faster, gets Aura Sphere instead of Focus Blast, and even has the option of using WoW to stop TTar and Scizor from destroying it. The only reason why I'd use Reuniclus over Mew is if I was deathly afraid of Toxic.

Landorus has been good to me but highly situational, as it can't come in on a lot of things due to its mediocre defenses. If this thing had Gliscor's defensive stats it would be a monster.

Doryuuzu is still the same...hard to beat if your team is depleted but still very beatable. I only lose to this thing when Focus Blast misses. Thank heavens it doesn't learn Stone Edge or the elemental punches/fangs.

Originally Posted by Fat Unholy Confessions

Things dominated the Gen 4 metagame too. Were those banned?

Um...actually...yes.

Originally Posted by Fat Unholy Confessions

Nope. Since when is "Swift Swim = BAN'D" complex?

Since Swift Swim by itself isn't broken. Swift Swim Gorebyss can't really do much without permanent rain. Drizzle + Swift Swim might be more complex in that the rule is more specific, but banning the two together prevents the need for a bunch of other tests and bans, saving us time and hassle.

[Lightning Tiger]

Originally Posted by Fat Unholy Confessions

Banning Swift Swim as a whole is a little asinine. No Swift Swimmer is uncounterable, nor would it overcentralize anything. Gen 4 was rather overcentralized throughout, but people found it fun.

(yes I'm aware it's SS+Drizzle, but what idiot is using regular Rain? Y HALO THAR SAND STREAMAR)

Seems Sand will once again dominate, what with beasts like Excadrill running around.

I use a kingdra that sets up using rain dance, it works (though thats more because kingdra is that good, probably wouldnt for other pokes).

As for sand streamers, i bring in kingdra in on them (usually Ttar) after somebody dies, Kingdra will almost always live a hit to change the weather, then the openent either switches or dies to surf. either way, it is not a waste. That or they start out with the streamer and i with Kingdra and i set up right of the bat, pretty sweet.

Nattorei completely walls it though, but i deal with him in other ways.

[RaikouLover]

Voltos is broken as fuck. I can't take this shit anymore.

If someone can find a counter for Nasty Plot / Thunderbolt / Hidden Power Ice / Focus Blast please let me know. And if you say Blissey I will kill you because I not using that fat piece of nothing.

I've tried Swampert and Lanturn, who wall it on paper, but both were destroyed by +2 Life Orb Focus Blast. It's like I pray for a miss against that asshole.

[masterful]

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

Voltos is broken as fuck. I can't take this shit anymore.

If someone can find a counter for Nasty Plot / Thunderbolt / Hidden Power Ice / Focus Blast please let me know. And if you say Blissey I will kill you because I not using that fat piece of nothing.

I've tried Swampert and Lanturn, who wall it on paper, but both were destroyed by +2 Life Orb Focus Blast. It's like I pray for a miss against that asshole.

Choice Scarf T-tar, any scarfer in general, really. Mamoswine. The problem isn't having counters, it's having counters that are usable in any situation, which this thing definitely has

[Lightning Tiger]

^^I take care of voltlos with scarf Medicham's Ice Punch, yeah i know, nobody uses that except for me which is why its not OU, but it works.

[Nubbins]

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

Voltos is broken as fuck. I can't take this shit anymore.

If someone can find a counter for Nasty Plot / Thunderbolt / Hidden Power Ice / Focus Blast please let me know. And if you say Blissey I will kill you because I not using that fat piece of nothing.

I've tried Swampert and Lanturn, who wall it on paper, but both were destroyed by +2 Life Orb Focus Blast. It's like I pray for a miss against that asshole.

Ice Shard Mamoswine KOs voltos after a little bit of resid damage. Or maybe you could just use a scarfer.

[RaikouLover]

True, my lack of feelings for scarfers is my undoing. I don't bother with them. Just fast pokemon and lots of priority. But still this thing is still an asshole way worse than landlos / dory and all the other shit people are bitching about

[jrrrrrrr]

Anything faster than Voltolos has a pretty good chance of beating it. Any Choice Scarf user really, it's not like Volty has good defenses. Latias also has a pretty solid matchup against it, although +2 HP Ice is going to hurt a bit. Cresselia also has Thunder Wave and Ice Beam to stop it

Oh, and of course Blissey :P

Something with that kind of type coverage is going to be hard to switch into if you're playing papermon. The best strategy I've used against Volty is to just get SR up and connect with one solid hit.

[breh]

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

True, my lack of feelings for scarfers is my undoing. I don't bother with them. Just fast pokemon and lots of priority. But still this thing is still an asshole way worse than landlos / dory and all the other shit people are bitching about

just use dory. easy solution :D

also Rotom-W works too I guess (why did you use lanturn?)

[Jaroda]

ATM, were I to be eligible for voting I'm one of the guys inclined to say there are no suspects this round. Latios is a force to be reckoned with for sure, but it's not Uber in my books.

[Chou Toshio]

I dunno, Blissey is actually a very good pick this metagame. What with so little Pursuit abuse (relative to 4th Gen)

[AccidentalGreed]

I actually wouldn't bother with Voltoros, but if you really want a more offensive check to it, perhaps an Electric-type of your own will do. Obviously Zapdos is out of the question, but Raikou and Jolteon can take an HP or Thunderbolt fairly well and go all-out with their own Thunder/Thunderbolt. Since you don't want to use Blissey, you may not want to use Unaware Quasire either, so the options are rather limited. I recommend just going with a faster Pokemon or one with priority.

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat Nubbins

Ice Shard Mamoswine KOs voltos after a little bit of resid damage. Or maybe you could just use a scarfer.

Yeah, Scarfers are pretty much the answer to everything. I use Scarf Rotom-W and Scarf Landlos, and I have little trouble with sweepers of any sort.

I agree with many other suggestions that there are no suspects. We've stabilized the metagame; it's time to go back and limit a few past bans that were a bit too far-reaching, such as the Swift Swim + Drizzle ban.