np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

[Lamppost]

My vote is swayed for that reason. We delt with it for a long time and nobody uses it, so what is the point on voting for it? But then I think, it's a really dumb item and it takes skill out of the game, so why not ban it?

[Random Pizzaman]

And @B-lulz: Blaziken is able to abuse Speed Boost much better than Yanmega ever can since it has a boosting move, great attacking stats, amazing coverage, and powerful STAB moves. I'm not saying that Blaziken or Speed Boost are broken either, just that Speed Boost is the major factor contributing to Blaziken's questionable brokenness.

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat Mario With Lasers

Hello fellow Smogoners, please enlighten me as to why are we voting on Brightpowder / Lax Incense but not on Quick Claw and Scope Lens, please.


And I have the feeling we should vote on Blaziken before voting on Drought, but too late, I guess...

Because Evasion is very different from any other sort of hax.

Not that I would oppose a ban on Quick Claw and Scope Lens. I certainly wouldn't advocate for it, but I wouldn't advocate against it, either.

[voodoo pimp]

Originally Posted by Fat Lamppost

brightpowder/lax incense is up for voting because it is categorized under the evasion clause, but not banned.

Except that they aren't categorized under the Evasion Clause, because it explicitly refers to moves. If they're going to be banned, either we have to vote to amend the clause or they have to be banned on their own.

[alphatron]

Quick question.

Why the hell aren't rain teams using offensive lanturn? Why? No, I'm serious. Why? STAB Hydro Pump? STAB Thunder? And they're using rotom-W? Starmie I can understand, but...

[Mario With Lasers]

Originally Posted by Fat Random Pizzaman

Uh what? *Points at join date*. I know perfectly well what's going on, I play a lot and follow the thread. I'm just saying that people should go further in their nominations than a few sentences that explain nothing. Why should your nomination be counted if you can't be convincing at all, even to those that know what you should be saying.

There was another post right after yours which got deleted, he was referring to that one.

Originally Posted by Fat Thorhammer

Because Evasion is very different from any other sort of hax.

Not that I would oppose a ban on Quick Claw and Scope Lens. I certainly wouldn't advocate for it, but I wouldn't advocate against it, either.

How's using an item which gives 10% Evasion any different than ~20% chance of going first? Aren't both luck-based and "game-changing"? My problem isn't even people nominating Bright/Lax, but nominating only them and forgetting the other two. People want to ban them to adhere better to Evasion Clause, but then forget Evasion Clause exists to disallow the purely-luck aspects of the game, which means we should ban the other luck items too. People talk about precedence and then... forget the most important one?

[masterful]

Originally Posted by Fat Thorhammer

Because Evasion is very different from any other sort of hax.

Not that I would oppose a ban on Quick Claw and Scope Lens. I certainly wouldn't advocate for it, but I wouldn't advocate against it, either.

Quick Claw and evasion and paralyze hax and confusion hax are so closely related you can't simply state without evidence that evasion deserves to be discussed separately, or is a more pressing issue.

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat masterful

Quick Claw and evasion and paralyze hax and confusion hax are so closely related you can't simply state without evidence that evasion deserves to be discussed separately, or is a more pressing issue.

I've given evidence, and I'll give it again. Paralyze hax requires hitting the opponent with a paralysis move at some point. Confusion hax requires hitting the opponent with a confusion sometime on their most recent switch-in. And before it gets brought up yet again, flinch hax requires moving first, then proceeding to hit the opponent with a flinch move every turn you want any chance of causing the hax. Evasion, on the other hand, applies to every Pokemon on the opponent's team indiscriminately. It's like the difference between Screech and Swords Dance

Evasion items and evasion abilities take it to an even more absurd level, since you don't need even a single turn of action to reap the benefits. You can't stack the boosts, but the immediate effect is far more significant. It's like comparing Swords Dance to Pure Power.

Quick Claw is also a passive effect, but it's also a completely different effect. As I said, I wouldn't oppose a ban on Quick Claw, but I also don't think it's relevant in the slightest.

[IcyMan28]

And I have the feeling we should vote on Blaziken before voting on Drought, but too late, I guess...

You mean how we voted on Manaphy, Kingdra, Kabutops, and Ludicolo before we voted Drizzle? The ability breaks the pokemon, not the other way around.

As for evasion items, I think it is pretty ridiculous that those even made it past nominations. The people who nominated them nominated them alongside Sand Veil and, in most cases, didn't even consider movepool restrictions, as Phil pointed out. In other words, the noms weren't thought out at all, more like "I hate evasion let's all get rid of it."

Quick Claw you could make a case for I guess, but again, the opportunity cost of running a better item comes into play again. Same for Scope Lens, which all it does is turn every attack into a pseudo-Leaf Blade.

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Originally Posted by Fat Thorhammer

I've given evidence, and I'll give it again. Paralyze hax requires hitting the opponent with a paralysis move at some point. Confusion hax requires hitting the opponent with a confusion sometime on their most recent switch-in. And before it gets brought up yet again, flinch hax requires moving first, then proceeding to hit the opponent with a flinch move every turn you want any chance of causing the hax. Evasion, on the other hand, applies to every Pokemon on the opponent's team indiscriminately. It's like the difference between Screech and Swords Dance

Evasion items and evasion abilities take it to an even more absurd level, since you don't need even a single turn of action to reap the benefits. You can't stack the boosts, but the immediate effect is far more significant. It's like comparing Swords Dance to Pure Power.

Quick Claw is also a passive effect, but it's also a completely different effect. As I said, I wouldn't oppose a ban on Quick Claw, but I also don't think it's relevant in the slightest.

Except that it's not absurd.
Only a few people are crying over a small chance to get a free turn, a free turn that usually doesn't even matter and when it DOES matter, it's only Garchomp that's being accused. I don't see ANYONE crying over Cacturne or Gliscor or even the Snow Cloak pokemon getting a free turn.
So what's really "broken"? Is it Sand Veil or Garchomp?

Lemme see, in Gen IV, YacheChomp was the broken set. Was YacheChomp banned? No. GARCHOMP was banned, not YacheChomp.

So if you still want to go with this, ban Garchomp, not Sand Veil.(I don't want neither Chomp or Sand veil banned, but I'd rather have Chomp banned over Sand Veil if it really IS broken, which I strongly believe it is not)

It just seems that since there's no real suspects outside of Blaziken and Latios, that you just want something to nitpick about.


Speaking about suspects, why is Drizzle suddenly being a "threat"?
Now that they have no swift swimmers, I find it pretty damn easy to check them. Any scarfer can out speed their whole team and OHKO, but to make up their lack of speed and bulk(excluding Rotom-W and Lanturn), they have immense power.
The only thing troubling me is Thundurus, who can not only hit like a truck, he can also cripple your own pokemon before dying.

[alphatron]

I threw together a drizzle team today in about ten minutes when I got bored. Went from the 2000s to the early 100s. I may have just been playing some lousy people though.

Thunderos and tornadus are a huge pain. Where as Thunderos goes, "About to die? Cripple the pokemon trying to revenge me.", Tornadus goes "About to die? GIVE THE WHOLE DANG TEAM SWIFT SWIM FOR FOUR TURNS."

I don't see choice scarf garchomp revenging latios when latios now has 700 speed.

[Lightning Tiger]

Originally Posted by Fat alphatron

Tornadus goes "About to die? GIVE THE WHOLE DANG TEAM SWIFT SWIM FOR FOUR TURNS."

I don't see choice scarf garchomp revenging latios when latios now has 700 speed.

how common is tail wind anyway?

that sounds so beastly by the way.

[IcyMan28]

Very common, considering Tornadus does not really need more than 2 of its moveslots with the coverage of Hurricane + Focus Blast. The last two slots can be Rain Dance / Taunt / Tailwind / HP Ice, etc.

[TheSuperItachi]

ok not trying to step on toes with this next comment
but lets be honest
people probably have been getting beaten by this "problem" pokemon while using their specific built teams. blaziken shouldnt get banned ..... i mean my god if any starter should get banned then blaziken (regardless) of ability should be at the end of the chopping block. infernape, emboar ,etc. these pokemon should be the 1st of any starters to be banned.

[JSND]

This is how INSANE Tornadus really is compared to the so they say superior thundruss

- Switch in = i spam my specs or LO Gale that no one can take anyway and theres no resist can switch on me perfectly not to mention i have good coverage AND confuse chance AND no immunity
*Thunder ?? whats that ?

- Im bout to die. I can cripple him or gave swift swim to everyone !!!!

- My moveslot ? only my brother can resist but he is fragile. Only Zapdos and rotom can take it completely but my power is huge it wont matter. I can be an offensive beast eassily since i have 110 + offensive stats and i can kick some of them with my
HP ice too.

- But Ttar resist gale ? bitch please scarftar is unseen and i can hammer him with my arm.

Yeah just insane. I found him superior to Thundruss in specs or LO 4 attack using.
Pure Offensively he win by large margin(Remember flying STAB is actualy great if it dont have terribad distribution) i mean, electric might be SE on best type in the game named Water, but it is immuned by ground which is painful on Specs User but flying dont have immunity and have great coverage even moreso in this meta complete with not many can cover torna with his resistance
Its like having Latios without the fear of opponent seeting up on you.
admittedly NP Thun is a bitch and he can T-wave you outta the fuck

[RaRaRabbit]

Originally Posted by Fat TheSuperItachi

ok not trying to step on toes with this next comment
but lets be honest
people probably have been getting beaten by this "problem" pokemon while using their specific built teams. blaziken shouldnt get banned ..... i mean my god if any starter should get banned then blaziken (regardless) of ability should be at the end of the chopping block. infernape, emboar ,etc. these pokemon should be the 1st of any starters to be banned.

Emboar is BARELY used, and Infernape usage has pretty much dropped significantly ever since this generation started with Blazekin getting buffed so much. I know you aren't trying to "step on toes" but you provide no reasoning as to why he should be banned while there are countless pages on here about how nearly every pokemon is OHKO'd or 2HKO'd after a swords dance. And since he has speed boost he outspeeds everything now. There is only 1 real counter to him and its Slowbro. He can be checked by Azumaril but if the sun is up, Azumaril cant check.

[TLK]

Originally Posted by Fat TheSuperItachi

ok not trying to step on toes with this next comment
but lets be honest
people probably have been getting beaten by this "problem" pokemon while using their specific built teams. blaziken shouldnt get banned ..... i mean my god if any starter should get banned then blaziken (regardless) of ability should be at the end of the chopping block. infernape, emboar ,etc. these pokemon should be the 1st of any starters to be banned.

This mentality is bad - the whole "well, if any starter gets banned". It doesn't matter if it's a starter, legendary, or just a random Pokemon on the Pokedex, if it has the ability, stat distribution and overall effect on the metagame it can be broken.

Take Reuniclus for example, it has the perfect stats in all the right places and an amazing ability to make people question if it is broken. Blaziken has all the right stats, a great ability, a stat boosting move and amazing STAB moves with really high powered attacks. It doesn't matter if it's a starter Pokemon or not. While we're at it, we might as well ban Entei because it's a legendary.

[TheSuperItachi]

ok that maybe true but im looking at it from this perspective. blaziken is easy to handle.
its defenses dont allow it to take hits so one psychic from a specs user or a stab brave bird from a scarf user and hes down for the count. infernape has all the right stats to do blazikens job and do it better. now if blaziken had bulk then id be all for him being sanctioned but with the 5th generation being this early out the gate i just dont see the point in blazikens new ability being banned before we get it "legally". like i said id be more worried if a bulky thing like emboar got speed boost but blaziken has always been something that needed a lot of team support and alot of setup to work. now i can already say that blaziken has to have 2 turns to become a "threat" with speed boost and even then blaziken is easy to put in check. from a physical spectrum u can use ghost types to make close combat ineffective and from a special spectrum a ghost type or a flash fire pokemon can take him pretty nicely. honestly the only time we need to get pissy about something is if glaceon got speed boost.

[Arc Tech]

Originally Posted by Fat TheSuperItachi

ok that maybe true but im looking at it from this perspective. blaziken is easy to handle.
its defenses dont allow it to take hits so one psychic from a specs user or a stab brave bird from a scarf user and hes down for the count. infernape has all the right stats to do blazikens job and do it better. now if blaziken had bulk then id be all for him being sanctioned but with the 5th generation being this early out the gate i just dont see the point in blazikens new ability being banned before we get it "legally". like i said id be more worried if a bulky thing like emboar got speed boost but blaziken has always been something that needed a lot of team support and alot of setup to work. now i can already say that blaziken has to have 2 turns to become a "threat" with speed boost and even then blaziken is easy to put in check. from a physical spectrum u can use ghost types to make close combat ineffective and from a special spectrum a ghost type or a flash fire pokemon can take him pretty nicely. honestly the only time we need to get pissy about something is if glaceon got speed boost.

Wow... first, Glaceon with speed boost is no threat at all. Horribad coverage, no way to boost sp atk.

Blaziken has higher attacking stats than infernape, and after speed boost, higher speed as well, meaning the only reason nape isn't completely outclassed is superior movepool (and higher starting speed, I guess).

After 2 turns, what besides Excadrill in sandstorm or scarf lati@s is outspeeding Blaziken in order to check him? Don't say priority- we've been over that, it fails other than azumarill.

Ghost type? Hello Flare Blitz (except jelli/chande- who still die if he has shadow claw).
Flash Fire? Hows about some Hi Jump Kick? (Except chande).

And he's not going to die to a specs psychic after SD, or a scarf BB after 2 speed boosts? Why? Because they'e never going to hit him, since the user needs to survive.

Also, Speed Boost Blaziken is legal, just not with egg moves. And sanction... where are we the U.N.? We either give them the total banhammer or do nothing (other than the drizzle+swift swim thing... it was really my second choice to banning Kingdra and Ludi.)

[JSND]

2 Turn to become a threat : Turn 1 Switch on nattrei/something cant hit him and KO or SD with prediction and turn 2 protect

Shandera countering : Its doesnt always use protect. WHat if it use SD 3 attack ? Besides taking out shandy is as easy as fuck and in future, you will use ST shandy. No doubt

Scarf Brave Bird : The only BB user that is scarfed that is viable is raptor with 100 speed which means adamant full speed ken outspeed at + 2

Finaly name SPecs Psychic user that can take ken's SD boosted move and outspeed him with + 1 or beyond

[TLK]

Originally Posted by Fat TheSuperItachi

ok that maybe true but im looking at it from this perspective. blaziken is easy to handle.
its defenses dont allow it to take hits so one psychic from a specs user or a stab brave bird from a scarf user and hes down for the count. infernape has all the right stats to do blazikens job and do it better. now if blaziken had bulk then id be all for him being sanctioned but with the 5th generation being this early out the gate i just dont see the point in blazikens new ability being banned before we get it "legally". like i said id be more worried if a bulky thing like emboar got speed boost but blaziken has always been something that needed a lot of team support and alot of setup to work. now i can already say that blaziken has to have 2 turns to become a "threat" with speed boost and even then blaziken is easy to put in check. from a physical spectrum u can use ghost types to make close combat ineffective and from a special spectrum a ghost type or a flash fire pokemon can take him pretty nicely. honestly the only time we need to get pissy about something is if glaceon got speed boost.

If Infernape got speed boost, then yes it would probably rape even more than Blaziken due to Nasty Plot, but the fact is, it doesn't. Even then, Infernape would take more from stuff like Conkledurr Mach Punch and takes something silly like 70% from CB Scizor Bullet Punch.

The 5th gen isn't that new. It's been around for nearly half a year now, and Blaziken with Speed Boost has existed nearly as long. We do know what we're talking about.

[Showsni]

Originally Posted by Fat Thorhammer

Evasion items and evasion abilities take it to an even more absurd level, since you don't need even a single turn of action to reap the benefits. You can't stack the boosts, but the immediate effect is far more significant. It's like comparing Swords Dance to Pure Power.

Brightpowder is equivalent to Pure Power now? That must be why every single thing that can is running it...

And what about Focus Band? It's basically exactly the same as Brightpowder, except the holder can be finished off by residual damage still/it powers up moves like Flail, Endeavour, Counter, etc. If you miss a Brightpowder holder and it KOs in return, that's practically identical to a Focus Band holder living and KOing in return.

[Arc Tech]

Originally Posted by Fat Showsni

Brightpowder is equivalent to Pure Power now? That must be why every single thing that can is running it...

And what about Focus Band? It's basically exactly the same as Brightpowder, except the holder can be finished off by residual damage still/it powers up moves like Flail, Endeavour, Counter, etc. If you miss a Brightpowder holder and it KOs in return, that's practically identical to a Focus Band holder living and KOing in return.

Yes, Brightpowder is to Double Team as activated Guts is to Swords Dance.

The thing is, even if it weren't banned not a lot of things would run DT, and as a result, Brightpowder is not run very often either.

A lot of people who support banning brightpowder also support banning quick claw/focus band, for much of the same reasons. Brightpowder just got more publicity with the veil/cloak argument, that's all.

[alphatron]

Yeah, Blaziken's one counter is Slowbro, who doesn't counter mixed sets. His checks are quagsire, azumarril, and sturdy steelix. Quagsire loses to hp grass mixed blaziken. As already said, azumarril can't do anything to Blaziken if sun is up. Steelix can no longer check if your opponent lays down one layer of spikes (gets around SR though).

As for Tail wind on tornadus, he can easily find the room for it.

Thunderos, "Oh shit, my opponent just brought in a scarfchomp and the dragon resist is dead. No problem. I'll just thunder Wav-FUUUUUU"

Tornadus, "Oh shit, my opponent just brought in a scarfchomp to revenge me and the dragon resist is dead. Lol scarfchomp? Have fun getting outsped by everything on my team."

Sure, you can always wait the tailwind out. But by the time tornadus is using tailwind, he's almost dead. If he's that close to death, it's because it's late game. It's not easy to stall through dual STAB Hydro Pumps and STAB/unSTAB Thunders late game at all.

Funny. Before the combination of drizzle and swift swim were banned, people said that drizzle would suck without swift swim and that there would be no point in running it. I personally don't think drizzle is broken, but oh my, how the times have changed.

[Mario With Lasers]

Originally Posted by Fat IcyMan28

You mean how we voted on Manaphy, Kingdra, Kabutops, and Ludicolo before we voted Drizzle? The ability breaks the pokemon, not the other way around.

As I said, "what if" it's only Blaziken the broken factor under Drought? I feel Manaphy was broken even outside of Rain, but I agree with you; we had Aldaron's proposal because everyone (I guess) agrees Weather abilities are not like Intimidate or Shed Skin, holding a much bigger weight on the metagame. So why do we vote for them along with the other abilities and before the suspect pokémon, specially when it's obvious Drought will have only one related pokémon being voted this time (unless somebody hates Volcarona/Venusaur...)?

Same thing with Drizzle. Are we voting on it because it's overall broken, or because of Thundurus/Tornadus?

Originally Posted by Fat JSND

2 Turn to become a threat : Turn 1 Switch on nattrei/something cant hit him and KO or SD with prediction and turn 2 protect

Just watch out for incredibly manly Ferrothorn using Thunder Wave while you SD!

Originally Posted by Fat TheSuperItachi

ok that maybe true but im looking at it from this perspective. blaziken is easy to handle.
its defenses dont allow it to take hits so one psychic from a specs user or a stab brave bird from a scarf user and hes down for the count.

First, you need to switch in. Second, now you're facing a +1 Speed Blaziken. Third, it may get to +2, or even +3 relatively easy. Third, Flare Blitz / Fire Blast / Sun Blaze Kick will hurt.

infernape has all the right stats to do blazikens job and do it better.

It's only faster than Blaziken, but Blaziken has Speed Boost.

now if blaziken had bulk then id be all for him being sanctioned but with the 5th generation being this early out the gate i just dont see the point in blazikens new ability being banned before we get it "legally".

I have a Speed Boost Torchic in my JP Black already. It's out since November (and it's a bitch to soft-reset for, but I digress).

like i said id be more worried if a bulky thing like emboar got speed boost

Emboar doesn't have Swords Dance neither a 130 BP Fighting move. Blaziken is leagues above Emboar.

but blaziken has always been something that needed a lot of team support and alot of setup to work. now i can already say that blaziken has to have 2 turns to become a "threat" with speed boost and even then blaziken is easy to put in check. from a physical spectrum u can use ghost types to make close combat ineffective and from a special spectrum a ghost type or a flash fire pokemon can take him pretty nicely.

Then you'd have to be faster than it before eating a Fire move if you're a Ghost or a Hi Jump Kick if you're... anything else.

honestly the only time we need to get pissy about something is if glaceon got speed boost.

...But Glaceon sucks. It has bad coverage, no set-up move (not like Swords Dance, at least), and is even slower than Blaziken.