(Data) State of the Game: 02/20/2011

[Doran Dragon]

You would have to buy it with extra Trainer Credits.

Evolution stones or items that make a pokemon evolve without trading would cost 3 TC
a Trading Evolution would need the Traiding Cable item which costs 4 TC.
If a Trading Cable is bought with an item used to evolve along with trading (I.E. Metal Coat) it would cost 3 TC for a traiding cable and 2 for the other evolution item.

[Acklow]

Aren't we just assuming that Evolution items are already a part of Evolution, so we don't need to worry about any more complexity?

[Doran Dragon]

I'm not sure. We could in theory. But i think it would be more fun to have to purchase your evolution items :D

[Deck Knight]

Problem is a fair few of the trade items have actual in-battle effects and I'd rather not implement them when they're entirely superfluous (Or implement all the non-plate type boosters just because Metal Coat is a trade item). It shouldn't really "cost more" to evolve Scyther into Scizor or Onix into Steelix.

[Solstice]

(First point is that this game is amazing and I'm sorry I didn't help more in development)

Well I feel that evoultion items are unnecessary, for two reasons. The first being that it overcomplicates the game considerably. If you have a Slowpoke and you want ither evolution, that evolution will cost you more than just getting a new Pokemon that's purchasable for cheaper and can evolve easier. As well as adding in the additional effects those moves can offer. Scyther evolves with a Metal Coat, and now you also have a boosted Bullet Punch while a regular evolving Pokemon can only acheive that with the item and not the incentive of evolution as well.

The secondary reason is that even in game items aren't difficult to obtain, most of them are given to you on a regular basis. It's not like you have to undergo a massive quest to get a Metal Coat that'll cause you to have to undergo 3 dramatic battles and a large stretch of storyline. It's just walking up to a Pokeball 90% of the time! Why should this game make it more difficult when in essense it's not?

[Lord Jesseus]

I'm actually fine with the current Evolution system myself. Especially since I have an Abra atm...
Besides, Beldum having to go through 5 battles with nothing but Take Down is just criminal (KO counters? Unlikely). Same goes for Magikarp (although Gyarados may just be worth it) and to a lesse extent Abra (though not nearly as bad) and maybe some others.
Honestly I think most of the current workings are fine as is. And b most I mean everything I've had experience with so far (although I a little concerned about the balance of damages, In the battle I'm reffing between Coolking and Venser, it seems Coolking's Beldum is very likely to go down in the second round, although the are a lot of factors involved...).
On Caterpie/Weedle exceptions, it seem to me that even under the proposed system Caterpie etc are simply not worth it. The only reason you would use Caterpie is that you really like Butterfree, and if you like it that much you might as well work for it like everyone else.
That's my opinions on the matter anyway.
Edit:
Besides, Beldum having to go through 5 battles with nothing but Take Down is just criminal (KO counters? Unlikely). Same goes for Magikarp and to a much lesser extent Abra (I'm not at all biased) and maybe some others (Feebas?). It seems to me like the weak bugs may not be the only ones who need an exception; even if the end result is Metagross (or Gyarados, etc), the 5 battles beforehand seems almost cruel. And if more things start getting exceptions it just starts getting more complicated in needless ways. I think the evolution system should be standardised at the very least with no exceptions.

On a slightly unrelated note, if the slower evolutions are implemented, I think it makes more sense to have 4/9 rather than 5/9 for the second stage of three; it makes more sense to me that you have to wait longer and work harder for the final form. This has in-game precedence too; even though the actual number of levels is usually smaller to get to the final form than the second, I'm pretty sure the actual amount of experience is far higher.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

As a side note, when you say "all generations", does that include generations 1 and 2? There's some silly bullshit that comes in in the first 2 generations that should probably be tossed, so it'd probably make sense just to make it gen 3 on.

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat Seven Deadly Sins

As a side note, when you say "all generations", does that include generations 1 and 2? There's some silly bullshit that comes in in the first 2 generations that should probably be tossed, so it'd probably make sense just to make it gen 3 on.

The worst offenders are probably Curse and Teleport, but not many things get them/Curse is a fairly terrible and already well distrubuted move. But yes, it includes all generations.

[mewtwo15026]

I'm chill with the Evolution Solution. However, why not use the 1.5X Weakness multiplier from Mystery Dungeon?

Both weak: 225%
One weak: 150%
Neutral: 100%
One resist: 66%
Both resist: 44%
Immune: 25%

[Ice-eyes]

I wouldn't have too many issues with that system, but I do think Immune should be 0%. Mah Voodoll ain't taking no Psychic bullshit, tyvm.

[smashlloyd20]

LOL
In any case, that just doesn't make sense. No matter how ineffective the attack is its going to do something.

[Chomper The Sharptooth]

We're battling like the anime so I could see Aim For the Horn...

Seriously though, a psychic will have plenty of moves at its disposal to hit the enemy. I don't think we have to let normals hit ghosts with STAB for minimal damage when we can get over 50 moveslots on most of these mons. I also liked the EC = 5 levels system but I can get behind Deck's current solution better than I can the one we have now.

[Tortferngatr]

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

Here's my proposed solution on evolution:

Rather than getting into a convoluted method of evolving different Pokemon, I will adjust upward the standard and make a few exceptions.

Two Stage Pokemon will have their EC increased to 0/6

Three Stage Pokemon will have their EC increased to 5/9 for their second form and and 9/9 for their final form.

Exceptions for Caterpie, Weedle, Wurmple:

Caterpie, Weedle, and Wurmple will have their EC requirements changed to 3/5 for their middle forms and 5/5 for their final forms.

Exception for Burmy:

Burmy will have its EC requirement changed (under the new system) to 0/4.

Could Combee go under the Burmy exception, or (given that Vespiquen seems like the most viable 1-rarity bug in the game) would that be a bad idea?

EDIT: And while I'm on the subject, shoudln't Attack Order have 9 power rather than 8? Its base power in-game is certainly greater than that of X-Scissor.

[Engineer Pikachu]

Originally Posted by Fat Tortferngatr

Could Combee go under the Burmy exception, or (given that Vespiquen seems like the most viable 1-rarity bug in the game) would that be a bad idea?

EDIT: And while I'm on the subject, shoudln't Attack Order have 9 power rather than 8? Its base power in-game is certainly greater than that of X-Scissor.

Vespiquen actually has pretty good stats, and it's even better in ASB since Stealth Rocks aren't as common and don't do as much damage.

Another proposal I have: Can we lift the limit on Recovery moves and add on an energy penalty for subsequent uses of the recovery move (per Pokemon)? Limited the uses for recovery moves (across the entire team) really reduces the effectiveness of defensive, more bulky Pokemon. True, they don't take as much damage, but they can't really do anything in return. My suggestion would be to increase the energy cost of a Pokemon's recovery move by four everytime it's used (to kind of mesh with the consecutive use thing), and have it reset when a new Pokemon comes out. Thoughts?

[Alchemator]

Originally Posted by Fat Engineer Pikachu

Another proposal I have: Can we lift the limit on Recovery moves and add on an energy penalty for subsequent uses of the recovery move (per Pokemon)? Limited the uses for recovery moves (across the entire team) really reduces the effectiveness of defensive, more bulky Pokemon. True, they don't take as much damage, but they can't really do anything in return. My suggestion would be to increase the energy cost of a Pokemon's recovery move by four everytime it's used (to kind of mesh with the consecutive use thing), and have it reset when a new Pokemon comes out. Thoughts?

Sounds pretty good as long as the energy increase is large and that a limit is still specified. I.E. Limit is set as 2, so using it a third time would incur a high energy cost.

I agree with it being reset with every Pokémon.

[Tortferngatr]

Originally Posted by Fat Engineer Pikachu

Vespiquen actually has pretty good stats, and it's even better in ASB since Stealth Rocks aren't as common and don't do as much damage.

Alright, then. What about Kricketune? (and why is Kricketot 2 rarity rather than 1, when Burmy arguably gets a better bargain?)

[Engineer Pikachu]

Originally Posted by Fat Tortferngatr

Alright, then. What about Kricketune? (and why is Kricketot 2 rarity rather than 1, when Burmy arguably gets a better bargain?)

Don't insult Kricketune. It's going to sneak up on you while you're asleep and Fury Cutter you to death.
I actually have no idea does anyone else know?

[FinnRagetti]

Adjustment to Deck Knights proposal:

For Pokemon with "Trade" evolutions:
-Holding the "trade item" lowers down the EC by one. (Seadra evolves at 9/9 w/o DragonScale and 8/8 w/ Dragon Scale.
-If the Pokemon does not have a trade item, then making the 10% stab item be used as the "trade item" (Haunter w/ Shadow Tag, Graveler w/ Hard Stone, etc).
-The new trade w/ trade pokemon evolution: Using both in a double battle at the same time adds a bonus evolution counter (cap of 1 time).

Pokemon with happiness:
If the end the battle as the last pokemon, or proved by the ref to be the most critical to battle, they gain an extra happiness. Ex: Happiny is used and KO'd the last pokemon, gains 2 ECs, (possibly 3 though the KO bonus). Riolu is used in a battle, scores a critical KO on a Blissey, or significantly weakens Blissey, setting up the type-disadvantaged Gastly to manage to KO Blissey and sweep the opponent/KO the last pokemon.

For Pokemon with Evolution Stones: Same mechanic as trade item.

For Trade items with No benefit aside trading: Give a 10% bonus to same type/similar structured pokemon/etc. Ex: Protector gives 10% increase to defense, Upgrade gives 10% accuracy boost/gives 10% attack bonus to computer pokemon.

[Chomper The Sharptooth]

Originally Posted by Fat Engineer Pikachu

Vespiquen actually has pretty good stats, and it's even better in ASB since Stealth Rocks aren't as common and don't do as much damage.

Another proposal I have: Can we lift the limit on Recovery moves and add on an energy penalty for subsequent uses of the recovery move (per Pokemon)? Limited the uses for recovery moves (across the entire team) really reduces the effectiveness of defensive, more bulky Pokemon. True, they don't take as much damage, but they can't really do anything in return. My suggestion would be to increase the energy cost of a Pokemon's recovery move by four everytime it's used (to kind of mesh with the consecutive use thing), and have it reset when a new Pokemon comes out. Thoughts?

You should know as my last ref how I hate stealth rock...

But I like this proposal. My team now doesn't show it because they're more my favorites, but eventually I'd like to build a bulkier ASB squad. I like recoveries being harder to use over time but not actually unusable after a certain point.

Also Chills don't recover enough I don't think (15 is probably the best amount) and it doesn't make sense for them to have a cap on it. If a Pokemon hypothetically survives with 0 Energy they would naturally chill because they have no other option. If they've already done it 5 times they'll end up doing nothing without regaining energy because even Struggle has a usage cost.

[Deck Knight]

I thought of a proposal that would address some of the problems with Beldum/Magikarp.

Pokemon without access to any TMs may instead choose up to 3 Tutor or Special moves from any generation instead.

tl;dr this means Beldum gets Iron Head/Iron Defense/Zen Headbutt and Magikarp gets Bounce/Bubble/Reversal, and Kricketott and friends get a few more moves to play around with.

As far as evolutions, I'm shutting down the Trade Evolution items idea. It requires an inordinate amount of in-game data that I'd rather just bypass.

However I will be changing evolutions to 0/6 for Two Stage and 0/9 for Three Stage. Pokemon will evolve into their second stage of a three stage line at 4/9.

The Caterpie/Weedle/Wurmple and Burmy exceptions stay. All the rest of the bugs get pretty good tutor moves and will do well under the new initial learnset rule.

The net effect of these rules will be to make Non-evolving Pokemon much more attractive, thus: Non-Evolving Pokemon will cost double their starting Rarity Points to obtain. Scyther kind of wins in this but Scyther has bar none the most exploitable type in the game.


Here are the results of this State of the Game:

New/updated mechanics:

4x Weaknesses/Resistances have been buffed to 2.25x (4x weak) and 0.44x (1/4 resist). 2x weak/resistant attacks are unchanged. A new calculatior will be released with these updates.

Chills will be increased to 12% Energy Recovery. This recovers enough energy to enable 1.5 UnSTABbed 12 Base Attack Power moves, and increases the standard amount of Energy Recovery (5 chills) in a battle from 50% to 60%. This will be reassesed at next week's SotG.

Pokemon that do not have access to any TMs may select up to 3 Tutor and Special Moves from any generation. This applies retroactively, and anyone who has such a Pokemon may apportion and use moves they would have selected if this rule were initially active. Use the Prize Claiming Thread to make these changes.


Evolution has been changed so Two Stage Pokemon require 6 EC to Evolve and Three Stage Pokemon evolve into their second form at 4 EC and their final form at 9 EC. This change applies retroactively, will devolve any Pokemon who has not reached the correct EC level, and players may reapportion all of their KO Counters and Ref Tokens put into EC if they wish. Use the Prize Claiming Thread to make these changes. They will also recover any Move Counters they used on moves the basic form of their evolved Pokemon cannot learn.

Exceptions to the above Evolution Rule: Caterpie, Weedle, and Wurmple can evolve into their second forms at 3/5 and their final forms at 5/5 EC.

Burmy can evolve to its final form at 4/4 EC.

All the other bugs and TMless mon have access to at least a few decent tutor or special moves.

Fully Evolved Single Stage Pokemon cost double (2x) their initial rarity point listing to obtain. This change is NOT retroactive and you may keep any such Pokemon you obtained this way.

Upcoming information:

A more complete Team Creation Guide will be created.

This thread will be closed in another 24 hours. Please provide any final commentary. There will be another SotG next week to assess these changes, so do not be concerned that any change made in an SotG thread is permanent.

[Tortferngatr]

This seems to also benefit multi-stage Pokemon who are strong initially as well. For example, take Syclar-it has Earth Power, Tail Glow and Blizzard/Ice Beam to start with, and only needs 1 move counter to get Bug Buzz. It can easily get kills to line its KO counter with-and over the course of four successful battles, it can get a maxed evolution counter while still spending two extra KO counters on moves (which is all it needs, IMO.)

Admittedly it's a bit worse to abuse 4x weak Pokemon now (given how much more bonus damage they're tanking if your opponent's packing a Pokemon of the right type,) but you still see my point.

[Engineer Pikachu]

Originally Posted by Fat Tortferngatr

Admittedly it's a bit worse to abuse 4x weak Pokemon now (given how much more bonus damage they're tanking if your opponent's packing a Pokemon of the right type,) but you still see my point.

I'm actually liking the use of 4x weak Pokemon right now. Since this is the very start of the game, most people only have one move of each type, which means I'm taking two strong hits per round at the very most. Also Deck I didn't see this in your update post; is there still a limit on how many chills you get per round and/or how many recovery moves you get?

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat Engineer Pikachu

I'm actually liking the use of 4x weak Pokemon right now. Since this is the very start of the game, most people only have one move of each type, which means I'm taking two strong hits per round at the very most. Also Deck I didn't see this in your update post; is there still a limit on how many chills you get per round and/or how many recovery moves you get?

Those are trainer decided. It's just the convention I've seen in almost every ASB I've ever played in is 2 Rest/Recover and 5 chills for each Pokemon. It's not a hard and fast rule, just a general convention. Insofar as Scylar and other Pokemon that are strong early, that's just Pokemon. Scylar does have a signficant number of weaknesses to balance out its offensive strengths, it's kind of like a modified Scyther that way.

[Lord Jesseus]

The new implemented ideas ruins some of my future plans but otherwise they seem fine to me.

[Dogfish44]

Q - For those who have already obtained evolutions under the old rules, what happens now?

Edit: I'm objecting to the devolution of my Grumpig. It isn't needed, and if it would have taken 6 EC's I'd have made several KO counters into move counters etc. Will I be able to reallot the entire set of KO counters?