Summer Freedom Pre-Evolutions - Page 2

DragonDance · May 18th, 2006, 4:31:06 PM

Okay. I've changed my mind.

Ban all but scyther. I was down to just Kadabra, and fucking raped after a single CM. And I'm talking Lanturn, and all that shit.

loaf · May 18th, 2006, 6:00:26 PM

if ues are to be banned (it looks like they will be at this rate), then vigoroth allowed pls. It's essentially a fully evolved poke in its own right, as it plays *completely* different to its arse of an evolution, and its stats mean it fits in with the uu environment well, without being overtly gamebreaking. Similarly for trapinch, clamperl, scyther, pikarat.

david stone · May 18th, 2006, 6:57:13 PM

I don't see how Kadabra, and possibly Pupitar alone are capable of banning all NFEs. Seriously, what's the point of banning Koffing?

The Plant · May 18th, 2006, 10:41:34 PM

Were they ever a problem in past SF's.

Aeroblacktyl · May 18th, 2006, 11:51:33 PM

We had no problems until PR whored us up with the idea from their UE and all that shit tournaments they hold.

P.S. It's retarded to only ban a "few" NFEs and allow the rest.

P.P.S. Why would anyone use Koffing when there's Solrock?

massi4h · May 19th, 2006, 1:17:22 AM

Well Wynaut has to be banned, its like uu wobby, coz the uu's have lower stats than the ou's so Wynaut still works and it's uber. I don't mind the other NFE's since I commonly use Pikachu, Viggy, Meditite and Cubone lol. So I love the NFE's. Please don't ban them.

Warthog · May 19th, 2006, 2:36:57 AM

Im willing to negotiate, let Scyther, Kadbra, Pupitar be allowed but have them them as BLs. If people want to abuse the above pokemon they can all they want by using up their BL, which isnt a horrible trade imo.

So what do you all say?

Cerberus · May 19th, 2006, 5:19:37 AM

At least Warthog is still thinking of all among us. He brought up a mid-situation, and you have to know I'm against the use of NFE Pokémon as well, but this could work. If people want to (ab)use them, then use up your BL spot. Seems reasonable to me.

Nate · May 19th, 2006, 8:11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Warthog

Im willing to negotiate, let Scyther, Kadbra, Pupitar be allowed but have them them as BLs. If people want to abuse the above pokemon they can all they want by using up their BL, which isnt a horrible trade imo.

So what do you all say?

Sounds pretty good to me. First compromise I've seen in this thread yet.

loaf · May 19th, 2006, 8:42:14 AM

i think we need to stop viewing unevolved pokemon as being any different than fully evolved pokemon. Whilst their stats are generally poorer, i don't see how you sweeping generalisations about them all is going to help determine their usefulness on an individual scale. If i want to use caterpie, then i'd damn well like to be able to without sacrificing my bl spot because someone decided it was just as effective as kadabra. Each poke should be judged on its individual merits, a sensible (unbiased) tierlist needs to be drawn up. If this just means saying

OU: Chansey, Wynaut

BL: Kadabra

UU: everything else

then so be it, but all this talk of banning pokemon just because they aren't fully evolved seems like unnecessary dilution of a potentially better metagame.

**WaterBomb** · May 19th, 2006, 9:28:44 AM

I was going to come in on the side of banning them all, but I really like that idea about making the uber ones BL. You can't just judge by stats alone though, you have to look at usability and traits. Let's take Pupitar for example:

PROS:
-4x FGT weakness down to 2x
-Rock resistance from 1x to .5x
-Bug weakness eliminated
-EQ now gets STAB
-Both of its types are physical, allowing for more utilization of DD (STABs)
-Rock Head (in case you like DE)

CONS:
-Water weakness from 2x to 4x
-Grass weakness from 2x to 4x
-Lower stats
-No more STAB on Crunch (Poopyboah?)
-No more Sandstream for Endure/Reversalers
-Ice weakness gained (1x to 2x)

I might be missing some, that's just what I thought of off the top of my head. Weigh these aspects as you like, but I see many useful pros to match the cons. It may not be quite as good as T-tar, but it's certainly better than the rest of the UU environment. In conclusion: Make it BL, like Warthog suggested. Same goes for Kadabra and Scyther in my book. In fact, why don't we make a list of the plausible UE pokes and have people vote on whether they should be OU, BL, or UU?

peter_pan · May 19th, 2006, 2:01:54 PM

scyther shouldnt count as a pre evo, cause it has the same total stat as scizor

***Mekkah***** · May 19th, 2006, 2:46:11 PM

Scyther should just be UU, its typing definitely cuts it down.

Flub · May 19th, 2006, 3:34:30 PM

For the love of god, make a list of things to ban. Most pre-evos aren't good the majority of the time. For instance, would using diglett as a mini-dugtrio really screw up the metagame that much?

Kadabra
Pupitar
Shelgon
Haunter
Trapinch (100 base atk+arena trap=pwnage)
What else?

DragonDance · May 19th, 2006, 4:07:55 PM

Trap only has 100 base attack. and is as slow as fuck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat WaterBomb

-Rock Head (in case you like DE)

More like Shed skin.

Siphai · May 19th, 2006, 4:45:59 PM

CB Quick Attack lol

stonerchris · May 20th, 2006, 2:04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat slinky

OU: Chansey, Wynaut

BL: Kadabra

UU: everything else

hmm yeah, add pupitar and haunter to BL and this sounds right to me.

Chronicles · May 20th, 2006, 3:01:28 AM

Ban them

Flub · May 21st, 2006, 11:15:34 AM

So you are saying caterpie would be overpowered?

loaf · May 21st, 2006, 12:28:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat WaterBomb

In fact, why don't we make a list of the plausible UE pokes and have people vote on whether they should be OU, BL, or UU?

Hell yeah

Yuki · May 21st, 2006, 12:50:49 PM

I'd be nice if people quit mentioning shit like Caterpie itt. Noone will use it if they want past the first round.

I agree with the idea of some of them being BL while the rest are UU. Making Trampinch BL is as equally retarded as making Kadabra UU.

Tmnt Boy · May 21st, 2006, 1:03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Jackal

why allow them is the better question. I say ban the lot cause I want to see uu pokemon not rip offs of ou.

I think jakal said it best

the point of uu is another metagame not a mini ou one

***Mekkah***** · May 21st, 2006, 1:16:55 PM

Banning them all seems an okay option to me, so is making every questionable one BL (Chansey and Wynaut in OU, obviously).

Veteran In Love · May 21st, 2006, 1:30:48 PM

good call wart, making pre-evos BL would discourage their usage in UU metagames but also help those who really want to use pre-evos.

m800_runner · May 21st, 2006, 2:06:39 PM

kadabra is dangerous.period. the reason why is not because of the high Sp.Stats but the range of its movepool. haunter is not so bad because his stats are even more unbalanced than gengar, Pupitar has way too many counters and he shouldnt be a problem. the main concern is around the 2x ice weakness of shelgon with his rock head and 4 resistences it can be a bitch to take down. scyther is definitely a problem and should be...um...what was it again....oh yeah BANNED.

May 18th, 2006, 4:31:06 PM	#26
DragonDance Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 601 canada	Okay. I've changed my mind. Ban all but scyther. I was down to just Kadabra, and fucking raped after a single CM. And I'm talking Lanturn, and all that shit. __________________ aaa

May 18th, 2006, 6:57:13 PM	#28
david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming. Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,152	I don't see how Kadabra, and possibly Pupitar alone are capable of banning all NFEs. Seriously, what's the point of banning Koffing? __________________ Previously obi. Technical Machine, a Pokemon AI. "Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat." - Sun Tzu

May 18th, 2006, 11:51:33 PM	#30
Aeroblacktyl The pizza doesn't scream in the oven! LOL! Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 8,335	We had no problems until PR whored us up with the idea from their UE and all that shit tournaments they hold. P.S. It's retarded to only ban a "few" NFEs and allow the rest. P.P.S. Why would anyone use Koffing when there's Solrock? __________________

May 19th, 2006, 5:19:37 AM	#33
Cerberus Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 778 Netherlands	At least Warthog is still thinking of all among us. He brought up a mid-situation, and you have to know I'm against the use of NFE Pokémon as well, but this could work. If people want to (ab)use them, then use up your BL spot. Seems reasonable to me. __________________ New trading thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24132 Old trading thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20031

May 19th, 2006, 9:28:44 AM	#36
WaterBomb Wailord used Explosion! Moderator Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 4,265 North Brunswick, NJ	I was going to come in on the side of banning them all, but I really like that idea about making the uber ones BL. You can't just judge by stats alone though, you have to look at usability and traits. Let's take Pupitar for example: PROS: -4x FGT weakness down to 2x -Rock resistance from 1x to .5x -Bug weakness eliminated -EQ now gets STAB -Both of its types are physical, allowing for more utilization of DD (STABs) -Rock Head (in case you like DE) CONS: -Water weakness from 2x to 4x -Grass weakness from 2x to 4x -Lower stats -No more STAB on Crunch (Poopyboah?) -No more Sandstream for Endure/Reversalers -Ice weakness gained (1x to 2x) I might be missing some, that's just what I thought of off the top of my head. Weigh these aspects as you like, but I see many useful pros to match the cons. It may not be quite as good as T-tar, but it's certainly better than the rest of the UU environment. In conclusion: Make it BL, like Warthog suggested. Same goes for Kadabra and Scyther in my book. In fact, why don't we make a list of the plausible UE pokes and have people vote on whether they should be OU, BL, or UU? __________________ [15:36] <+WaterBomb> I would get a giant dragonair tattooed on my penis [15:37] <+QueenOfRandoms> it starts as a dratini [15:37] <+QueenOfRandoms> and evolves [13:37] <zeb> o/ [13:37] <strika> \o [13:37] <CDXCIV> zeb o/\o strika [13:37] <CDXCIV> TEAMMATES

May 18th, 2006, 6:00:26 PM	#27
loaf Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 104	if ues are to be banned (it looks like they will be at this rate), then vigoroth allowed pls. It's essentially a fully evolved poke in its own right, as it plays completely different to its arse of an evolution, and its stats mean it fits in with the uu environment well, without being overtly gamebreaking. Similarly for trapinch, clamperl, scyther, pikarat.

May 18th, 2006, 10:41:34 PM	#29
The Plant Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 730	Were they ever a problem in past SF's.

May 19th, 2006, 1:17:22 AM	#31
massi4h Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 857 Auckland, New Zealand	Well Wynaut has to be banned, its like uu wobby, coz the uu's have lower stats than the ou's so Wynaut still works and it's uber. I don't mind the other NFE's since I commonly use Pikachu, Viggy, Meditite and Cubone lol. So I love the NFE's. Please don't ban them.

May 19th, 2006, 8:42:14 AM	#35
loaf Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 104	i think we need to stop viewing unevolved pokemon as being any different than fully evolved pokemon. Whilst their stats are generally poorer, i don't see how you sweeping generalisations about them all is going to help determine their usefulness on an individual scale. If i want to use caterpie, then i'd damn well like to be able to without sacrificing my bl spot because someone decided it was just as effective as kadabra. Each poke should be judged on its individual merits, a sensible (unbiased) tierlist needs to be drawn up. If this just means saying OU: Chansey, Wynaut BL: Kadabra UU: everything else then so be it, but all this talk of banning pokemon just because they aren't fully evolved seems like unnecessary dilution of a potentially better metagame.

May 19th, 2006, 2:01:54 PM	#37
peter_pan Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 902 Germany	scyther shouldnt count as a pre evo, cause it has the same total stat as scizor __________________ O __ o trade thread =] fc: 1976 8717 7654

May 19th, 2006, 2:46:11 PM	#38
*Mekkah* pfbwowbfobwobwobfwowbf Administrator** Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,847 Most of them are good	Scyther should just be UU, its typing definitely cuts it down. __________________ onions videos cameras models steroids dinoturtlethings

May 19th, 2006, 3:34:30 PM	#39
Flub Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 618 Bloomington, IN	For the love of god, make a list of things to ban. Most pre-evos aren't good the majority of the time. For instance, would using diglett as a mini-dugtrio really screw up the metagame that much? Kadabra Pupitar Shelgon Haunter Trapinch (100 base atk+arena trap=pwnage) What else? __________________ Lag is pretty bad in real life. Just look at Jesus. When he died, it took him three days to respawn. Last edited by Flub; May 19th, 2006 at 4:31:34 PM.

May 19th, 2006, 4:45:59 PM	#41
Siphai Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,465	CB Quick Attack lol

May 20th, 2006, 3:01:28 AM	#43
Chronicles Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,017	Ban them

May 21st, 2006, 11:15:34 AM	#44
Flub Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 618 Bloomington, IN	So you are saying caterpie would be overpowered? __________________ Lag is pretty bad in real life. Just look at Jesus. When he died, it took him three days to respawn.

May 21st, 2006, 12:50:49 PM	#46
Yuki Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 745 ATL	I'd be nice if people quit mentioning shit like Caterpie itt. Noone will use it if they want past the first round. I agree with the idea of some of them being BL while the rest are UU. Making Trampinch BL is as equally retarded as making Kadabra UU.

May 21st, 2006, 1:16:55 PM	#48
*Mekkah* pfbwowbfobwobwobfwowbf Administrator** Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,847 Most of them are good	Banning them all seems an okay option to me, so is making every questionable one BL (Chansey and Wynaut in OU, obviously). __________________ onions videos cameras models steroids dinoturtlethings

May 21st, 2006, 1:30:48 PM	#49
Veteran In Love Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 624	good call wart, making pre-evos BL would discourage their usage in UU metagames but also help those who really want to use pre-evos.

May 21st, 2006, 2:06:39 PM	#50
m800_runner Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 117 NYS	kadabra is dangerous.period. the reason why is not because of the high Sp.Stats but the range of its movepool. haunter is not so bad because his stats are even more unbalanced than gengar, Pupitar has way too many counters and he shouldnt be a problem. the main concern is around the 2x ice weakness of shelgon with his rock head and 4 resistences it can be a bitch to take down. scyther is definitely a problem and should be...um...what was it again....oh yeah BANNED. __________________ http://halotech.org/signatures/sigcache/37147_3.png