CAP 1 - Part 3 -(Secondary Type Discussion)

[capefeather]

I'm not sure you understood much of my post at all because your response is very non sequitur, but I'll respond to this:

Nothing about Steel would make switching into a STAB'd Fighting attack any easier, and you help me inculcate the point here by saying a resist isn't even enough to guarantee survival. Addionally, the Fighting type resists Rock, the most common Fighting/Ground coverage move, and that's what is most important.

I'll be fair. Flying/Fighting would have an easier time against DD HJK Scrafty (stupid high-power HJK compared to Ice Punch), BU Scrafty (because they don't carry Ice Punch at all), Conkeldurr, Choice Band Terrakion (sort of) and non-HP Ice SD Virizion. Flying/Steel would have an easier time against any non-Choiced Terrakion (or maybe just Rock Polish if CAP 1 is faster), DD Drain Punch Scrafty carrying Ice Punch, and Virizion carrying HP Ice. I guess it could go either way in this case, then. I was just trying to promote talking in specifics rather than another post just saying that we have to resist Fighting.

[Attract]

Originally Posted by Fat capefeather

I'm not sure you understood much of my post at all because your response is very non sequitur, but I'll respond to this:I'll be fair. Flying/Fighting would have an easier time against DD HJK Scrafty (stupid high-power HJK compared to Ice Punch), BU Scrafty (because they don't carry Ice Punch at all), Conkeldurr, Choice Band Terrakion (sort of) and non-HP Ice SD Virizion. Flying/Steel would have an easier time against any non-Choiced Terrakion (or maybe just Rock Polish if CAP 1 is faster), DD Drain Punch Scrafty carrying Ice Punch, and Virizion carrying HP Ice. I guess it could go either way in this case, then. I was just trying to promote talking in specifics rather than another post just saying that we have to resist Fighting.

Not sure how popular Scrafty is as it has never given my team any trouble (meaning I found it forgettable), but Fighting/Flying STABs would appear to be enough to do significant damage to all the threats that you claim might be problematic for CAP 1.

I think you may also be inflating these moves' potentials a bit. An HP Ice might be able to dispose of a Gliscor, but that is x4 (210 power) special attack against a physically defensive poke. If this CAP turns out to be OHKO'd by these mons off-STABS, then we must have done something incredibly wrong in the Stats and Abilities step.

Now I believe we are just getting too specific for this section. My points have been specific on Fighting/Flying's advantages over Ghost/Flying and Steel/Flying without getting into Movepools, Stats or Abilities, and I believe this is acceptable enough for this stage of development.

[doominic77]

In my opinion a weakness to Stealth Rock would (disregard what I said post 1) limit CAP 1's momentum creating skills. However a secondary typing isn't the only way to make CAP 1 Stealth Rock netural. You could add an ability to negate the damage Stealth Rock does (or at least make it only 12.5%). Here are the types I think would be good in no particual order

Steel

---

Weaknesses and Resistances (with Flying)

Resistances:
Bug (x0.25)
Dark
Dragon
Flying
Ghost
Grass (x0.25)
Normal
Psychic
Steel

Weaknesses:
Electric
Fire

Immunities:
Ground
Poison

Pros and Cons

Pros:

• Lots of Resistances
• Two Immunities
• Only Two Weaknesses

Cons:

• Neither Flying nor Steel are particuarly strong attack types. A Pokemon can't create momentum if it can't do anything.
• Are we trying to recreate Scarmory!?

Poison

---

Weaknesses and Resistances (with Flying)

Resistances:
Bug (x0.25)
Fighting (x0.25)
Grass (x0.25)
Poison

Weaknesses:
Electric
Ice
Rock
Psychic

Immunities:
Ground

Pros and Cons

Pros:

• Three 4x resistances.
• Poison is a fairly strong attacking type.

Cons:

• Weak to Stealth Rock.

Ground

---

Weaknesses and Resistances (with Flying)

Resistances:
Bug
Fighting
Poison

Weaknesses:
Ice (x4.0)
Water

Immunities:
Ground
Electric

Pros and Cons

Pros:

• Ground is a extremely strong attacking type (one word, Earthquake)
• Water and Ice have similar coverage so you only have to have one check for Water and Ice pokemon.
• You know what the opponent will bring in against you.
• Immunity to Electric.

Cons:

• 4x weakness to Ice.
• Not as many resistances as Steel and Poison.

IMO, Poison would be the best choice for CAP 1 followed by Ground.

[Vaz]

Hi

With Flying type chosen as the primart type, I suggest that we go for one of two secondary types.

Ghost can provide much momentum; stopping Rapid Spin and negating Normal type attacks.
Steel can also prove much use; negating heavy Stealth Rocks damage, providing good resistances and an Immunity to Toxic (as well as Posion).

Thanks, bye.

[ryik7]

Originally Posted by Fat Tortferngatr

ryik7: ...You appear to be playing Dream World, as almost nobody in their right mind uses Serperior without its unreleased Contrary ability. You also seem to have a low ranking, as Haxorus/Ononokus is this Gen's equivalent to Gen IV Electivire-powerful and hard for less experienced players to stop, but easy for more experienced players to beat. (besides Garchomp outclasses it.) Finally, psychic only offers a Psychic resist over Ghost, which offers Fighting and normal immunity, along with a 4x bug resist. Additionally, Ghost hits the Chandelure you fear super-effectively, something that Bug-typed moves cannot do (Ghost resists bug.)

actually, those are just the opponents I face, these are the threads I thouht standard teams faced, I use teams that are otherwise ignorant of these opponents, so um.. yeah, and yes, dream world is kewl

and yes, I mean jalorda/serperior with perversity/contrary/antagonist, what did you think I meant?

[Woodchuck]

I actually think that having vulnerability to only one coverage attack, like capefeather said, is important. If there are two different attacks the opponent can use, then it is more difficult to take momentum by switching in a resist.
However, I still support Flying/Fighting. Fighting is an excellent defensive typing because it only adds two rather uncommon weaknesses, Flying and Psychic. Yes, Psychic is becoming more common, but bear with me.
Fighting makes a rather inconsequential 4x bug resist, but it brings an important neutrality to Rock to this CAP. It also has a useful resist to Dark.
A Flying/Fighting type would be better able to check the multiple Fighting-types in OU with a Flying-type attack without fearing a Stone Edge or Payback.

[Destiny Warrior]

I would back Fighting type for secondary type. Yes, I know. Its an amazing STAB combo, generic sweeper blah blah blah. But to gain momentum, a Pokemon must be able to threaten the opponent, and giving it good offensive tools is a must, because the Flying type is not very good defensively in a metagame infested with Excadrills carying Rock Slide. We have to neutralize Stealth Rock as well. The Fighting type provides it an important Psychic type weakness, so that we can allow this Pokemon to be checkd by Reuniclus. This is a fairly common Pokemon, and the skill of repeatedly forcing the opponent's hand into switching in reuniclus is crucial to gaining momentum. A Flying/Fighting is weak to Psychic(addressed above), Flying(somewhat uncommon, but with Tornadus existing, it helps to balance it), Electric(Voltlos), and Ice(several Pokemon use this for coverage). This means that while this Pokemon can threaten a large amount of the metagame, it also is skilled at luring, which helps generate momentum with appropriate switching.

For these reasons, I support the Fighting type as the secondary type for our CAP.

[/vXv\]

here how I see typing affecting this pokemon
since we we thinking defensive for the most part I wanted a pokemon whose typing protected it from moves that ignore its powerful defenses. like toxic, stealth rock etc. which all do a set percentage of damage.
Moves best avoiding through typing
Stealth rock (fighting, Ground, Steel)
Toxic/Posion (Steel/Poison)
Super fang (ghost)
Burn (Fire)
Weather (Steel,Rock Ground/Ice)
Leech seed (grass)
This pokemon can deal with move damage throught great stats plus steels many resistances.
Most steel types have access to Rock and ground moves which although no stab still leaves it with fair coverage

[Joeyboy]

Ok so many people keep bringing up the point that SR hasn't been as omnipresent as it was in Gen IV in Gen V. Well the thing is people the CaP metagame is a whole new metagame. People will lay down SR every game to deter CaP1's prowess. I would, so I'm sure all the smarter battlers here will too. So onto my secondary typing choice.

Fighting: First and foremost it rids CaP1 of its SR weakness which is in fact as important as some people think. Now while other types do this too(Notably Steel and Ground) I believe Fighting will be much more unique(Don't want a Skarm/Glis/Land clone do we) because it gives CaP1 the necessary stab to really threaten the opponent. Between moves like Close Combat, Hi Jump Kick and Focus Blast fighting can be seen as a HUGE offensive power. It could be able to threaten Natt, Ttar, Scizor, Heatran, Excadrill, Breloom, The Fighting Trio, and a number of other large threats with its stab moves. I believe Flying/Fighting will give us the most unique and powerful type combo for CaP1.

[Woodchuck]

Originally Posted by Fat /vXv\

here how I see typing affecting this pokemon
since we we thinking defensive for the most part I wanted a pokemon whose typing protected it from moves that ignore its powerful defenses. like toxic, stealth rock etc. which all do a set percentage of damage.
Moves best avoiding through typing
Stealth rock (fighting, Ground, Steel)
Toxic/Posion (Steel/Poison)
Super fang (ghost)
Burn (Fire)
Weather (Steel,Rock Ground/Ice)
Leech seed (grass)
This pokemon can deal with move damage throught great stats plus steels many resistances.
Most steel types have access to Rock and ground moves which although no stab still leaves it with fair coverage

If we were to make a fully defensive CAP (which, mind you, hasn't been decided upon) then we would have to be sure not to make it Steel/Flying. We would end up creating a Skarmory clone and we wouldn't really learn much about the metagame at all.

[Calm Pokemaster]

Even though Steel might be a good typing, considering all the resistances and immunities it brings to the table, it will be left with a bad STAB combination. As the multitude of users have already pointed out, a Pokemon which is meant to obtain momentum should be able to atleast attack and deal substaintial damage to force switches, play mind games with the opponent on what he brings in etc which are what affect momentum directly.

I am supporting a Fighting / Flying typing. The Fighting-type gives it a powerful STAB option to hurt Pokemon such as Ferrothorn and Chansey who can easily wall threats and thus influence the momentum gained / lost. This Pokemon can thus also deal with the multitude of Fighting-type set-up sweepers present in the metagame. With a immunity to entry hazards barring SR which it is neutral to anyway, courtesy its Fighting typing, this Pokemon can easily switch in and out, which is what a Pokemon that is supposed to influence momentum should be able to do.

[taziathegreat]

My support still either lies with grass or fighting


Grass gives us an insane support move pool, come in on something non-threating force the switch cripple whatever comes out then uturn of there, it provides three obv weakness, that few pokes run together (I can only think of blaziken, ttar and nidoking, none of which would like a grass or flying attacks)


Fightings been drilled in so I don't have to say much

[Xiom]

Reason why i don't suport steel, is because, while it gives many resistances across the board not all of them are relevant. It also removes resistance to fighting which is one of the main selling points of the flying primary type.

Points i seen for steel over poison been the ability to resist/netrual against covarage moves in Rock and Dark. But if your opponent are able to hit you with their main STAB option for netrual damage, thats going to be alot vorse then taking a Payback netrually. Stone Edge does give it trouble, but theres plenty of ways that would help around that.

Encoring a 0,25x resist or imunity would give you a very strong position, most likely forcing a switch if not scaring whatever away as soon you manage to switch in on a resist or imunity. I'm not going for this need encore to work efficiently, but theres alot of moves that help it gaining momentum that benefits from strong resistances. Torment, Disable, Trick just to name a few all could keep opponent to only the uneficcient moves.

Even without theese moves Poison Flying still stand as a strong typing, just mentioned them because i feel its worth thinking about them as they been thought about throughout the concept.

[Raikaria]

Originally Posted by Fat Joeyboy

Ok so many people keep bringing up the point that SR hasn't been as omnipresent as it was in Gen IV in Gen V. Well the thing is people the CaP metagame is a whole new metagame. People will lay down SR every game to deter CaP1's prowess. I would, so I'm sure all the smarter battlers here will too. So onto my secondary typing choice.

Fighting: First and foremost it rids CaP1 of its SR weakness which is in fact as important as some people think. Now while other types do this too(Notably Steel and Ground) I believe Fighting will be much more unique(Don't want a Skarm/Glis/Land clone do we) because it gives CaP1 the necessary stab to really threaten the opponent. Between moves like Close Combat, Hi Jump Kick and Focus Blast fighting can be seen as a HUGE offensive power. It could be able to threaten Natt, Ttar, Scizor, Heatran, Excadrill, Breloom, The Fighting Trio, and a number of other large threats with its stab moves. I believe Flying/Fighting will give us the most unique and powerful type combo for CaP1.

Yes, people may try to lay down SR more due to the CAP's presence, but:
Mischevious Heart, Rapid Spin, Taunters, and Magic Mirror all prevent or remove Stealth Rock. In addittion, with Team Preveiw and whatnot, setting up SR comes with the opportunity cost of letting something such as Volcarona, Conkeldurr, Blaziken, ect, ect, set up as you do it.

Even with an extra Flying type in the metagame, SR is still going to be easy to prevent or remove... most of the smart players will have some form of ensureing this if they are using the CAP.

Also, just to point out, having some weakness to a type that isn't everywhere may be a good idea, as you can lure that attack, and U-Turn out of it [Assumeing you have enough speed, otherwise, you can just switch], to something that threatens. Mometum can be gained effectivly as a pivot too, like a middleman for lureing an free-switch, not just as an offensive threat.

Personally, I'm still curious as to what the rest of you guys thing about Flying/Psychic, as my [rather lengthy] post has received no feedback yet.

Perks of Flying/Psychic:
Psychics get a wide support movepool, most of them get Trick, Trick Room, and the Screens, ect. I don't know about you, but Trick and Trick Room are pretty good momentum shifters, as are the Screens.
X4 Resistance to Fighting
2 STABS which hit Fighting Super Effectivly, both of which are resisted by Steel. This makes this CAP lure Steels like a Dragon lures them, which, in turn, you could use to your advantage, with Magnezone, or a fighting-type of your own, or a Fire type. IMO, this is particually useful.
The Persuit Weakness gained if offset by the likly fact that this CAP will get U-Turn
Many Psychics get Recover, allowing recovery without losing the advantages of the Flying type.

Downsides of Flying/Psychic
Flying/Psychic is not winning awards for coverage, but this CAP is NOT a sweeper, which Fighting/Flying may create
We lose our Bug resist, but bug moves are not that common, and can be seen miles away, as well as Bug being weak to Flying
Tyranitar becomes a stronger issue, due to the Psychic STAB being an immunity, almost all Psychics get Focus Blast, however
Some of the support options Psychic provides to shift mometum are a bit Gimmicky, such as Wonder Room, Skill Swap, ect.

[Erick]

Originally Posted by Fat Raikaria

Personally, I'm still curious as to what the rest of you guys think about Flying/Psychic, as my [rather lengthy] post has received no feedback yet.

I don't think it would be bad, but I find it very similar to Flying/Ghost, but generally inferior, as Ghost's immunities are very desirable (less importantly, Bug is .25x effective against Flying/Ghost rather than 1x). Psychics do get Light Screen in their move requirements, but all the other moves you mentioned are either required by both (Trick) or are entirely at the discretion of movepool submitters and have nothing to do with the type. They both share Ghost and Dark weaknesses and can lure Steels. They both hit Fighting SE. Flying/Psychic does have the option of Psychic over Flying to hit Fighting SE, but that's only especially useful if you're fighting Terrakion or Toxicroak.

Flying/Psychic does have two potential advantages over Flying/Ghost, though: a resistance to Psychic, which is rising alongside Fighting, and better STAB options than Flying and Ghost.

[bubbly]

Psychic/Flying looks just outclassed by Ghost /Flying if you ask me. The bonuses it gets vs Psychic attacks aren't close to being more useful than spinblocking.

Also, can we steer clear from the whole "its Psychic therefore it gets Screens", "its Grass therefore it gets Sleep Powder" and so on which keeps coming up? Movepool isn't and shouldn't be influenced by the typing as it effects the concept, only in terms of flavor moves.

[Tortferngatr]

Originally Posted by Fat ryik7

actually, those are just the opponents I face, these are the threads I thouht standard teams faced, I use teams that are otherwise ignorant of these opponents, so um.. yeah, and yes, dream world is kewl

and yes, I mean jalorda/serperior with perversity/contrary/antagonist, what did you think I meant?

Because that metagame is not normal BW OU-normal BW OU is the metagame CAP1 will operate in. Play that metagame before you discuss here.

[Judas DN]

Steel/Flying gains my support, it's pretty much the best defensive typing in the game. Nothing has such an excellent Resistance/Weakness ratio as this typing does, all in a combination with a virtual Entry hazard immunity that is just necessary for any 'Momentum' pokemon.

Any argument stating a momentum pokemon can work with an SR weakness is absurd(I challenge you just name ONE momentum pokemon with an SR weakness). A momentum pokemon should be capable of switching many times without any kind of support, something Ghost/Flying, Water/Flying, ..whatever can't do.

Steel Flying has proven to be good at taking any kind of attacks, making even a pokemon with very low SpD stats as Skarmory usefull for taking Special based hits.

In fact Steel Flying is so absurdily good, i'm pretty sure one could even make a pokemon with a relative low base stat working provided it gains the abilities to use this typing to the fullest. Which i believe could result in a much more 'refreshing' CAP, seeing as most current CAP's are just pokemon with high all round stats.

I had something in mind with High Attack/HP(like 100-110) and average on everything else with Regeneration, which relies on it's typing to take hits and the Brave Bird/Regeneration combo to deal heavy damage. Though i'm probably going to far now.

Threatens Reuniclus and Conkeldurr simultaneously.

While both threats have coverage attacks they can utilize against Ghost/Flying, The typing hits both of them super-effectively with STAB attacks. With Psychic and Fighting both rising to prominence, being able to hit both while being weak to neither is a huge benefit. Psychic itself is experiencing somewhat of a Renaissance, and Ghost can strike Latias, Latios, Espeon, and Sigilyph effectively as well.

Being able to hit Reuniclus super effectivly does not necessarily mean it's capable of beating it. Burunguru for example has a real hard time countering the standard CM set.

A Steel/Flying can be just as effective at beating Reuniclus if it has enough Attack/SpD to pull it off, seeing as it resists Psychic without a weakness to Fighting.

Reason why i don't suport steel, is because, while it gives many resistances across the board not all of them are relevant. It also removes resistance to fighting which is one of the main selling points of the flying primary type.

Why would i ever use a pokemon with Fighting/Flying as my Fighting Resist over Gliscor? To be honest i can't possibly see anything better comming as a fighting resist than Gliscor. This competition with Gliscor is pretty much the reason why i think this Fighting/Flying pokemon will fall into obscurity(unless you give it an even more broken ability and stats of course).

Also in this metagame i'm looking way more forward to a pokemon who can take both the EdgeQuake combo and Draco Meteors than a resist to fighting to be honest.

[ShenCS]

I'm fairly inexperienced at gen V battling, but I feel people are downplaying what a psychic weakness means. Basically, Trick Room Reuniclus. Best case scenario, you predict it and double switch out, requiring your choice to be able to take down a fresh one before it can set up and sweep. If it switchs in and CAP1 didn't double switch, Reuniclus can either use a psychic attack (which CAP1 has to switch out of, but to a Pokemon of your choice), use Focus Blast to catch the predicted switch-in (making it basically 50/50 whether or not CAP1 switches), switch itself out to counter whatever your counter (but then anything gets ruined if you predict well enough) or set up Trick Room, in which case you lose all momentum pretty much no matter what.
Giving CAP1 a gap like that which can destroy the very concept of the Pokemon seems like something that should be looked into more. CAP1 would either need the sheer bulk to survive a hit or the power to 2HKO Reuniclus (assuming you could damage it on the switch), either one would encourage people to use CAP1 for purposes other than momentum.
Again, I'm not too experienced yet so feel free to tear the theory down.

[Destiny Warrior]

Originally Posted by Fat ShenCS

I'm fairly inexperienced at gen V battling, but I feel people are downplaying what a psychic weakness means. Basically, Trick Room Reuniclus. Best case scenario, you predict it and double switch out, requiring your choice to be able to take down a fresh one before it can set up and sweep. If it switchs in and CAP1 didn't double switch, Reuniclus can either use a psychic attack (which CAP1 has to switch out of, but to a Pokemon of your choice), use Focus Blast to catch the predicted switch-in (making it basically 50/50 whether or not CAP1 switches), switch itself out to counter whatever your counter (but then anything gets ruined if you predict well enough) or set up Trick Room, in which case you lose all momentum pretty much no matter what.
Giving CAP1 a gap like that which can destroy the very concept of the Pokemon seems like something that should be looked into more. CAP1 would either need the sheer bulk to survive a hit or the power to 2HKO Reuniclus (assuming you could damage it on the switch), either one would encourage people to use CAP1 for purposes other than momentum.
Again, I'm not too experienced yet so feel free to tear the theory down.

I feel part of CAP1's concept should be forcing your opponent's hand, so if it can regularly force Reuniclus to come in, it will be able to put its opponent on the defensive, which is a way of gaining momentum.

[zarator]

Originally Posted by Fat Woodchuck

If we were to make a fully defensive CAP (which, mind you, hasn't been decided upon) then we would have to be sure not to make it Steel/Flying. We would end up creating a Skarmory clone and we wouldn't really learn much about the metagame at all.

I'm not a fan of Steel as a secondary type on this CAP, but this post is completely bad. It's like saying Bronzong and Jirachi are Metagross clones just because they share the same type. Nothing could be farther from the truth

[capefeather]

Let's try this again because it seems I was wrong on a few things:

Scrafty
Flying/Fighting takes 150 power Ice Punch
Flying/Steel takes 112.5 power Drain Punch OR 195 power HJK

Terrakion
Flying/Fighting takes 150 power Stone Edge
Flying/Steel takes 180 power Close Combat

Virizion
Flying/Fighting takes 140 power HP Ice
Flying/Steel takes 180 power Focus Blast OR Close Combat

OK, so yes, in many cases, the Fighting resist outweighs the Ice weakness. It just bothers me that no one actually bothered to ask how Fighting-type coverage would affect our typing decision.

[ShenCS]

Originally Posted by Fat Destiny Warrior

I feel part of CAP1's concept should be forcing your opponent's hand, so if it can regularly force Reuniclus to come in, it will be able to put its opponent on the defensive, which is a way of gaining momentum.

But the problem is risking Trick Room. If Reuiclus sets up Trick Room, which isn't too difficult for it with its fair bulk, you lose all momentum and your opponent entirely has the upper hand, even if you see it coming. You basically NEED to double switch to prevent it. I'm not saying a psychic weakness would make it impossible for the concept to work, just that it's something not many people seem to be mentioning.

[Attract]

Originally Posted by Fat ShenCS

But the problem is risking Trick Room. If Reuiclus sets up Trick Room, which isn't too difficult for it with its fair bulk, you lose all momentum and your opponent entirely has the upper hand, even if you see it coming. You basically NEED to double switch to prevent it. I'm not saying a psychic weakness would make it impossible for the concept to work, just that it's something not many people seem to be mentioning.

Trick Room Reuniclus is a huge threat, yes. But to build a team without a counter, or at least a check to it isn't smart, regardless on whether or not this CAP provides the answer. The Fighting/Flying typing may not be able to stand up to Reuniclus, but what it does do is check the majority of the metagame with its defensive typing and can deal significant damage with just its STABs. It does this better than Steel/Flying (being majorly defensive) and Ghost/Flying (also being majorly defensive) while having an easier time scaring off the opponent without relying on coverage moves. Reuniclus is just one poke that threatens this type, and it is one of the few. Every one of the suggested types have at least one poke powerhouse in the current metagame that they theoretically can't handle, MixTar for Ghost/Flying, Hard hitting Fighting types for Steel/Flying. The threats that, erm.. threaten those types are a lot harder to check than Reuniclus, which is hard checked by Spiritomb anyway, and it won't like a STABd Crunch/Pursuit from Tyranitar. Trick Room Reuniclus is missing either Calm Mind or Recover, missing either limits its sustainability. It's not as big of a problem to this CAP when its so predictable and counterable.

[taziathegreat]

"I challenge you just name ONE momentum pokemon with an SR weakness. A momentum pokemon should be capable of switching many times without any kind of support "



Crobat, infact crobat is one of the best I've ever seen.