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BW OU (°ᴥ°)

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by Harsha, Jan 14, 2013.

  1. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 18, 2011

    This is a team I'm retiring with the soon-to-happen changes to the metagame, as I will no longer be able to use it. I used it in the last suspect test, and it has performed solidly in other matches as well. I've actually managed to include most of my favorite Pokemon in this metagame on this team, and oddly enough, they seem to fit together incredibly well. My team started off with a simple core that I wanted to use: Choice Specs Politoed + Choice Scarf Keldeo + Life Orb Tornadus-T. I wanted Choice Specs Politoed for its incredible power, as there are very few Pokemon that can safely switch into it. Choice Scarf Keldeo is one of the premier revenge cleaners in this metagame because it can revenge kill Pokemon easily with its resistance to Stealth Rock, and while it has very little coverage, the moves it has can pick apart opposing teams without much trouble, especially in the late-game. Life Orb Tornadus-T is easily one of the biggest threats because it packs a super powerful Hurricane, and if you predict correctly, it can get rid of counters by using U-turn on the switch, effectively giving you all the momentum.

    With these three Pokemon, I realized that I wanted a few more things on this team. For one, I obviously needed Stealth Rock to ensure I can break Focus Sash and put a lot of Pokemon in KO range for Tornadus-T. I also wanted a bit of power on the physical side because as it stood, my team was in trouble against many special walls. I decided on bulky Stealth Rock Garchomp because I hadn't actually tried it, but I had seen it used effectively. It also provided me with an Electric-type immunity to bring into Choice-locked Volt Switch, though a lot of Electric-type Pokemon have started running Expert Belt sets, and Hidden Power Ice is always a staple there. With Garchomp, my team gained one bulky pivot. I now wanted a Steel-type and a bit more offense, so I settled on SubCM Jirachi. It provided a good switch-in for Tornadus-T due to its typing, and it is easily one of the best sweepers in this metagame due to the ubiquity of rain. Finally, I chose Toxicroak as my last Pokemon, as it absorbs Toxic Spikes. It's also probably one of the most underrated but effective sweepers in this metagame. It provides some useful priority too, so I can eliminate threats without worrying about the mediocre Speed.

    I probably have around three versions of this team that I used consistently, as it seemed like any type of rain offense with Life Orb Tornadus-T and Choice Scarf Keldeo was bound to be good, but ultimately I've liked using Toxicroak better than Breloom or Terrakion, and Garchomp has been more useful than Dugtrio. There are probably other changes you could make to this team, but this is the variant I'm most comfortable with. By the way, if you're wondering why I chose the title, my laddering alt for this round was "cubchoo (°ᴥ°)".

    The Team
    Politoed @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Drizzle
    EVs: 220 HP / 252 SpA / 36 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power Grass

    Choice Specs Politoed is definitely the best Politoed set out there. There are very few reasons not to use it. It provides a ton of pressure for opposing teams, no matter what the weather is. For instance, Politoed threatens any Pokemon on a sun team a lot under the rain, and Venusaur or Latias are generally the only common switch-ins that sun teams can afford to use. The former is still mauled by Hydro Pump, while the latter is fairly easy to react to. Sand teams likely will only carry Rotom-W, Jellicent, or Latias as switch-ins and while Jellicent is a bit problematic, I can use the obvious switch-in to my advantage by bringing in a Pokemon to swiftly KO it. Rotom-W is not a very good special sponge, and it's pretty much useless in the rain against Choice Specs Politoed. Considering the only options it has are using Volt Switch or Will-O-Wisp (or Thunder Wave), I can use the predictability to my advantage. People expecting specially defensive Jirachi to hold up are in for a big surprise when it falls to Hydro Pump.

    If the opponent runs a different weather, I typically conserve Politoed's HP until I can safely spam Hydro Pump. However, if the opponent carries rain without Jellicent, Gastrodon, or Toxicroak, I simply use Hydro Pump repeatedly until the opponent can KO me. The investment in bulk helps a lot with tanking hits, ensuring Politoed sticks around long enough to be a thorn in the opponent's side. I've considered a spread of 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe with a Timid nature, but I don't really care about Breloom enough to use that. I also appreciate all the power that Modest brings considering Politoed can even 2HKO some variants of Chansey and Blissey after a bit of prior damage.

    I run a pretty standard moveset on Politoed because there's not really anything to tweak. Hydro Pump is what I'll be using almost all the time, as its power is tremendous, and the pros far outweigh the con of the 20% chance of missing. However, Focus Blast can come in handy against Ferrothorn that I am sure will switch in. Of course, if the opposing Ferrothorn lacks Protect and it is switching in while I have Stealth Rock down, it will be 2HKOed by Hydro Pump, so the opponent does have to be careful even if I don't use Focus Blast. Ice Beam is solely to take down Dragonite that try and set up, but it can be useful against Breloom that overpredict. Hidden Power Grass is mainly used to catch Rotom-W and Gastrodon on the switch, but it can also hit Jellicent for respectable damage. I've considered Psychic solely for Toxicroak, but I am not sure whether the change is merited, as all the moves are pretty useful, and I can take down Toxicroak with Garchomp and Jirachi.

    Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
    Ability: Rough Skin
    EVs: 216 HP / 40 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Aqua Tail
    - Outrage

    Garchomp is an important member of the team, though at times it feels a bit replaceable. It's a really good Pokemon to set Stealth Rock for my team because it forces out a lot of common threats, grabbing me momentum. Stealth Rock lets me handle a boatload of threats much more easily, and it grabs some nifty KOs, such as +2 Ice Punch against specially defensive Hippowdon, Outrage against Thundurus-T, and many others that I can't name at the moment. I use maximum Speed on Garchomp because I need it to take down Thundurus-T before it sets up, and Outrage will bring it down to about 10% where I can manage with either Jirachi or Toxicroak (or Life Orb damage, if it carries one). I also need Garchomp to check opposing Toxicroak, as it outpaces the Ice Punch and won't take too much from Sucker Punch.

    My team dislikes Rotom-W because while it can be overloaded by special attackers in the mid-game, early on I have a hard time switching into it. Garchomp is typically my primary answer to Rotom-W, and while the opponent may get smart and predict the switch to hit me with Will-O-Wisp, Garchomp isn't really necessary for the team to function. I generally just use Outrage and sac it if it gets burned, trying to do as much damage as possible.

    Despite the little Attack investment, Garchomp is actually quite powerful. I have, however, considered pumping more EVs into Attack to ensure I OHKO opposing Thundurus-T, as those are always a pain. I'm sure Aqua Tail versus Gliscor would also be more effective with a bit more Attack, but the ability to sponge so many hits is really appealing to me. I always switch Garchomp into Scizor and similar attackers because once it uses U-turn, it automatically loses 29% of its health and has to take Stealth Rock damage the next time it comes in. Garchomp is also my lead whenever I see an obvious lead Terrakion, as while Terrakion is guaranteed Stealth Rock, I can take it down to its Focus Sash. Even if it lands a Close Combat, it will end up KOed the next turn thanks to Rough Skin.

    When Princess Bri used this team, he used Swords Dance over Aqua Tail. It's a change I've never really considered, but it has its merits in that Garchomp can do major damage to slower teams right off the bat. I have used Gliscor in this spot in the past, but Gliscor is pretty much terrible in this metagame. I also have considered Mamoswine in this spot, and in theory, it provides a better answer to Thundurus-T, but I've never gotten around to using it. I would lose a lot of bulk if I did make the switch, but having a defensive backbone isn't necessarily as important as having a cohesive team in this metagame.

    Tornadus-T @ Life Orb
    Ability: Regenerator
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Naive Nature
    - U-turn
    - Hurricane
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power Ice / Taunt

    Tornadus-T is definitely a suspect for a reason! It's the only Pokemon on my team weak to Stealth Rock, and with Regenerator, Stealth Rock becomes a non-factor – this explains my lack of a spinner. Whenever Tornadus-T comes in, it's generally going to either spam Hurricane to KO something or U-turn out to gain momentum. While Life Orb in conjunction with U-turn may seem dumb, even after Stealth Rock, Tornadus-T only takes a net 2% damage every time it comes in. That's pretty outrageous considering the power behind this thing. U-turn is useful against Latias because Tornadus-T fails to OHKO when they're healthy, so I can simply U-turn to Jirachi and set up if I've won the weather war.

    I've considered a Hasty nature, but in the end I decided on Naive because I still live Landorus's Hidden Power Ice and I can take physical priority moves better. I didn't want to weaken U-turn too much with Timid, so that's why I run a nature that hinders one of my defenses. I obviously need a Speed-enhancing nature in order to use Tornadus-T's ridiculous base 121 Speed to its fullest extent, and the EVs are standard for any special attacker.

    Focus Blast is used when I'm feeling gutsy and feel like I can predict a Tyranitar switch. I don't like using Focus Blast in front of opposing Tyranitar because the threat of Chople Berry can ruin Tornadus-T, and if I miss, Stone Edge will simply OHKO. Hidden Power Ice was what I used at first, as it OHKOes Landorus and other 4x weak Pokemon and is usable outside of rain, but I've started using Taunt upon the suggestion of Jirachi because I can lead with Tornadus-T against Deoxys-D teams and prevent the opponent from ever laying entry hazards. Aside from that, Taunt really has very little use, but preventing the opponent from getting layers down helps immensely in that I can switch Pokemon into sweepers without having to be overly cautious with my HP.

    Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Justified
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Surf
    - Hydro Pump
    - Secret Sword
    - Hidden Power Ice

    Choice Scarf Keldeo in the rain is definitely one of the best – if not the best – cleaners and revenge killers, especially in the rain. Considering that the move Keldeo will use most often is one of its Water-type STABs, Surf and Hydro Pump get the equivalent of a Choice Specs boost in rain, while Keldeo's Speed gets a boost from its Choice Scarf. Keldeo was the Pokemon I was most interested in when building this team, as I wanted to experiment with its cleaning abilities given proper support. Because Tornadus-T is so fast already and Toxicroak has priority Sucker Punch, I don't have to solely rely on Keldeo for revenge killing, meaning that I can keep it healthy until the late-game so that I can take priority moves more easily.

    One of the best things about Keldeo is that once Jellicent, Rotom-W, Celebi, or whatever rain check that sand teams have is sufficiently worn down, Keldeo can simply sweep without even needing rain up. Bar Jellicent, all of these checks will get worn down given repeated blasting of Hydro Pump, and Tornadus-T takes down Celebi with ease, so it's not a very good check. Jirachi, another common special wall, is easily removed under the rain. The only Choice Scarf users that Keldeo doesn't at least Speed-tie are Choice Scarf Latios and Latias, both of which are taken care of by my Jirachi. Keldeo outpaces Choice Band Stoutland (if it's running an Adamant nature), so even if I lose the weather war and my Jirachi to a Hippowdon sand team, I can still win the match with Keldeo.

    The other moves on Keldeo are used fairly rarely, but they do have their uses. Secret Sword provides me with a STAB Fighting-type move, and it's useful against Chansey, Blissey, and Tyranitar if I cannot afford a miss. Hidden Power Ice is pretty much solely for Dragon-types, as it's too weak to do any noteworthy damage to Celebi. I have considered using Hidden Power Psychic to take down Toxicroak, as I have had some Toxicroak troubles in the past. I'm unsure if I would want to sacrifice the ability to revenge kill all Dragon-types, though.

    Toxicroak @ Life Orb
    Ability: Dry Skin
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Sucker Punch
    - Drain Punch
    - Ice Punch

    It's not hard to see why Toxicroak is such an amazing sweeper in this metagame – rain is so common that it has plenty of opportunities to set up, and its coverage grants it an easy time against sand teams as well. If I'm facing a rain team, I usually aim to sweep mid-game with Toxicroak so that I can weaken the opponent sufficiently. I can get an easy Swords Dance against Politoed and work from there, though I do have to be careful because Psychic is becoming more common. I can also send Toxicroak out once an opposing Choice Scarf Keldeo has revenge killed one of my Pokemon, as Toxicroak resists or is immune to almost all its moves bar Hidden Power. With a Life Orb, Toxicroak can actually OHKO most of the threats that it will face in this metagame, and Sucker Punch is actually pretty powerful.

    If the opponent is using sand, I use Toxicroak to clean up in the late-game, as Jirachi will have far fewer opportunities to pull off a sweep. Drain Punch threatens most common Pokemon on sand teams, and for opposing Gliscor and Landorus, I have Ice Punch waiting. A lot of people bring in Landorus expecting me to switch out while they Rock Polish, but I use Ice Punch pretty frequently against Landorus, as one of my main policies when playing is to always limit Rock Polish Landorus sweeps. Prediction games aren't fun, so that's why I don't go for the Sucker Punch right off the bat. If I lose Toxicroak, it's not too big of a deal, as I'll have an opportunity to clean with Choice Scarf Keldeo later on in the game. I just have to make sure that I limit opposing setups, as with it's very hard to recover after you let a Landorus get a boost.

    The main draw to using Toxicroak is its ability, Dry Skin. With Dry Skin, I get a net gain of 2.5% HP after each turn with the Life Orb recoil. This means that Toxicroak will stick around for a long time, and my Life Orb boosts are virtually free in the rain. It's not hard to see why Toxicroak has become so popular in tournaments!

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Ability: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Substitute
    - Calm Mind
    - Thunder
    - Flash Cannon

    SubCM Jirachi is likely my favorite Pokemon in this metagame. The amount of times it has been able to save my ass when a game was getting out of hand is astounding. This is probably one of the most straightforward sets you can see. I bring Jirachi out early on to tank Tornadus-T U-turn (or Hurricane if the opponent is gutsy) and pretend that I'm running a standard specially defensive set. If I nab a free turn, I immediately try to paralyze a Pokemon with Thunder. I don't use Flash Cannon very often in the earlier stages of the game because it's a dead giveaway that I am running a SubCM set. When the opponent has been weakened sufficiently and I have won the weather war, Jirachi can come out whenever I see a safe switch. I sometimes have to sac a Pokemon to bring this in safely, but if I lose a Pokemon to set this up, it's generally worth it.

    Once Jirachi sets up a Substitute, I just have to boost up with Calm Mind until I am sufficiently prepared to sweep. Thunder basically takes care of most Pokemon, and it has the added bonus of paralyzing the foe 60% of the time. A few lost turns can amount to a scarier Jirachi, as Calm Mind takes advantage of paralyzed foes. Once I manage to beat the Pokemon in front of me with a Substitute up, I can OHKO the opposing revenge killer, and then I can pick apart the opposing team. One of the nice things about Jirachi is that it has a lot of natural bulk, so it can tank uninvested moves fairly easily. This means that I can keep the Substitute up more easily. With a Timid nature and 252 Speed EVs, only the fast Pokemon in this metagame can outpace me, and they're generally all special attackers with the exceptions of Terrakion and Garchomp, which should generally be removed before I attempt a sweep.

    I chose to run Flash Cannon over the generic Psyshock or Water Pulse because I figured that giving Tyranitar as few switches as possible is always a good thing. Psyshock does help me against Gastrodon, but I can usually take that down between one or two of my attackers, and at that point Jirachi can already sweep. Water Pulse has always been too weak for my tastes, and Flash Cannon has the added benefit of STAB, so it hits fairly hard and requires fewer boosts. If I manage to get the Special Defense drop, that's just icing on the cake, though usually I won't need it.


    Like any team, this one is not without its flaws. Probably the biggest thorn in my side is Jellicent, as it doesn't fear most of my Pokemon, and it completely shuts down Keldeo and Toxicroak should it run Will-O-Wisp. Additionally, Politoed is Choice-locked, so while it has Hidden Power Grass, I can't necessarily use it to my advantage, and doing so requires a lot of prediction. My best bet here is to get Jirachi to set up early on so that it can take down Jellicent later. If it has Shadow Ball, I can just set up on Jellicent, though the Scald variants are the trickier ones. Besides Jellicent, Gastrodon is somewhat problematic, but I can generally run through it with all my attackers. I haven't had many more problems aside from these two, most other defensive threats are set up on by Jirachi, and offensive threats just have to be beaten down by my own team.

    Stealth Rock Terrakion is pretty much guaranteed entry hazards against my team, though the opponent is always down a Pokemon because Garchomp brings it down to its Focus Sash with Earthquake and Terrakion will KO itself with Rough Skin recoil. Opposing Toxicroak can be troublesome, but Jirachi can generally paralyze them and take them on fairly easily. If I keep Garchomp alive, Toxicroak can't get past it either. It does get a lot of setup opportunities, though, so I have to be careful. Thundurus-T is a pain, so I generally try and eliminate it as soon as possible, else I have to resort to using Toxicroak's priority as a means of taking it down, and I hate prediction wars between Sucker Punch and Agility. Other than these threats, nothing actually is too hard to take down, but I have to make sure I play smartly.

    That's really all there is to say. The team has served me well and with the old metagame behind us, I can't really do much with the team anymore. I've considered using Latios over Tornadus-T, but when I think about it, the thing that made Tornadus-T so good was its ability to conserve momentum with U-turn while posing a threat with Hurricane. I'll probably continue using the general formula I talked about early on, as it can be applied to a lot of good offensive rain teams. Thanks for reading, hopefully you enjoyed the RMT. Any changes you guys have in mind are appreciated.
    Monte Cristo likes this.
  2. tab

    tab ʕ•͡ᴥ•ʔ
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus

    Mar 4, 2008
    Monte Cristo likes this.
  3. dragonuser

    dragonuser The only thing I look up to is the sky
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a defending World Cup of Pokemon champion

    Jun 7, 2011
    Hey there Harsha,

    So this is pretty much the embodiment of standard rain in BW2, and is likewise very solid. You can't really change many Pokemon without opening yourself up to others, so I will focus mainly on your movesets to help your team improve. So to start, you are running a Naive nature on Tornadus-T, but not running a strong Physical move. I really think Superpower + Taunt > Focus Blast + HP Ice would work well here. Superpower hits Tyranitar extremely hard as well, while Taunt helps you break down common stall cores. Hidden Power Ice has little use as using Hurricanine against most Dragon-Types is generally the superior option, and you do have Choice Scarf Keldeo to revenge them. To me, your Garchomp spread also seems a bit strange. IMO, running a standard 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd with Focus Sash would be better for your team. Focus Sash helps to guarantee rocks, and Rocky Helmet shouldn't be missed too much as Garchomp can hit every spinner very hard. On a lead like Garchomp I also see having more power as more useful then the extra HP EVs as this lets you hit as hard as you can once rocks are set and you are down to your sash. My final suggestion is more of a preference change. Naturally these type of teams are very weak to Jellicent, so I would recommend running Toxic > Hidden Power Grass on Politoed. Once you reveal you are Specs Toed they will feel no danger in switching Jellicent in (HP Grass does not 2hko iirc), so you can nab them with a well timed Toxic. This would effectively neuter Jellicent for the entire match. Anyways, hope I helped. Good Luck!
  4. Alexander.

    is a Tiering Contributorwon the 2nd Official Ladder Tournament

    Jan 24, 2012
    Hi Harsha,

    Very cool team you have here. I built a similiar team in the last year so I can give you some advice.

    First of all, I suggest you to change Politoed's EV spread to : 176 HP / 252 SAtk / 80 Spd. 80 EVs in Speed allows to outspeed Calm Rotom-W because you haven't a solid switch into it and it can tank Tornadus-T and Keldeo's attacks pretty well. Then, on Tornadus-T I'd use Sleep Talk, replacing Taunt / Hidden Power Ice. Breloom can give some problem to your team because your main switch into it is Tornadus-T but it fears Spore. Sleep Talk allows to switch into Breloom without fear of Spore and I think that's quite good for your team since you won't play 5 pokèmon against 6 pokèmon. Sleep Talk is good vs. Amoonguss too, which tank Politoed and Keldeo's attacks very easily. Finally, I suggest you to change Garchomp's EV spread into 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd and to use Focus Sash, replacing Rocky Helmet. The offensive EV spread gives Garchomp more fire power which is important in a offensive team in my opinion, Focus Sash otherwise allows you to setup the Stealth Rock more easily.

    Anyways, hope I helped, good luck with your team! Luvdisc'd.
  5. duke3528


    May 7, 2009
    Awsoem team. The only thing I really recomend is changing toxicroak's Nature to Jolly. With jolly he out speeds jolly mamoswine which is going to help your team alot. You wont miss out on that much power because of Life orb. Give it a try I know you'll like it.
  6. CedOmega


    Nov 15, 2011
    Very nice Rain team here, Harsha!

    That said, I don't see much that I could suggest for your standard rain team. I believe HP(Ice)>(Ghost) on Keldeo may suffice, as your current set is Jellicent wall bait. With this, it would also come to require something such as IcyWind, perhaps over Surf or HydroPump; your call. Seems to be all that I would suggest testing out for now. Great team! I hope this helps and good luck! :)

    Suggested change(s):
    Keldeo: HP(Ice)>(Ghost); Surf/HydroPump>IcyWind
    Show Hide

    Trait: Justified
    Timid nature
    HydroPump/IcyWind, Surf/IcyWind, HP(Ghost) & SecretSword
  7. Jirachee

    Jirachee who dares wins
    is a Tournament Directoris a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Head TD

    Sep 24, 2010
    The biggest problem I see with this team is that you're going to have a LOT of trouble against Speed boosters that outspeed Keldeo.

    Mainly Double Dance Thundurus-T and RP Sheer Force Landorus. Thundurus-T can set up on Jirachi pretty easily, or Keldeo locked into Secret Sword, and then proceed to hit everything on your team with Thunder(bolt)/Hidden Power Ice. A lot of Rain teams have the same problem since they have a lot of Electric weak Pokemon, and most of the Electric resists are terrible against Thundurus-T anyway since they are either wrecked by HP Ice or can't do anything to Thundurus-T. Landorus has a harder time setting up however, it can also set up on Keldeo locked into Secret Sword and Jirachi if it comes in from a U-turn from anything that lures Jirachi in. If it manages to get a Rock Polish from these conditions however, you're in huge trouble: the only thing that isn't OHKOed after Stealth Rock by it is Politoed. The main issue with this is that, Politoed will probably lose a lot of health by the time Landorus sets up, as it's your weather starter, which plays early game. Politoed takes like 65% from Landorus' Earth Power, so it's fairly easy to bring it in KO range since it's fairly slow, have no recovery, and has to switch in very often (especially against teams with a different weather.) To be honest, I'd do a couple of changes to fix that issue. I'd drop Garchomp in favor of Life Orb Latios, and run SpD Jirachi instead of your current set. Latios does a lot for your team, such as being able to take on both Thundurus-T and Landorus when healthy, while being able to do some of Garchomp's roles, such as wrecking Sun etc.. Latios can also severly weaken opposing Jirachi with a Rain boosted Surf, which is excellent for Tornadus-T, as Jirachi's recovery isn't the most reliable out there, especially if it lacks Protect. Latios also helps against SpD Jellicent since it 2HKOes it with Psyshock, and doesn't really mind Will-O-Wisp, you can also 2HKO Def Jellicent with Draco Meteor, however, watch out for it recovering the damage right after you used Draco Meteor. You lose Stealth Rock though, so you'd have to use Specially Defensive Jirachi over your current set, which isn't that big of a deal I guess.

    I think that dragonuser's suggestion of running Superpower on bird is a great suggestion, as it makes it easier for Tornadus-T to beat things like Tyranitar. However, you should consider running Sleep Talk over Taunt, as if you're facing Breloom in a different weather, nothing on your team seems to be very fond of taking Spore. With Tornadus-T knowing Sleep Talk, you can switch into Spore and beat Breloom somewhat easily.

    Anyway that's a cool team, here's the set you should use:
    Latios (open)

    Latios @ Life Orb
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    ~Draco Meteor

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 SpD
    ~Iron Head
    ~Body Slam
    ~Stealth Rock

    harsha n_n
  8. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 6, 2009
    Yeah, I used a team more or less identical to this for the suspect round. It works, plain and simple. Have you possibly considered using Celebi over Garchomp? You keep the electric resist, but can now smash straight through Jellicent and Gastrodon. You can go with the standard defensive one I guess, but I find that Tinkerbell would suit this team better, smashing straight through the BandTar + Scarfeo combo. You only really need Leaf sStorm, Stealth Rock and recover; thr last slot is customizable. If you go with Thunder Wave, I recommend meadow plate as the item, if another attacking move is chosen then obviously use Life Orb. Psychic is cool if you want to nail Toxicroak, as you can EV to outspeed. Earth power is kinda useless considering this is a rain team and heatran is no threat, and hp fire is weakened :/ so tbh i'd just recommend TWave. I know you're theoretically walled by Thundurus, but Leaf storm does a crapload after Stealth Rock.

    Edit: or of course u-turn lol, which your team would really love. Also Celebi really helps against Rock Polish Landorus, which is a big threat to your team. SpD might just be ebtter though, I recommend you to try both sets.
  9. PokèManiac Livio

    PokèManiac Livio Un panino al salame
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    May 15, 2012
    Hey Harsha, safely you re better than me to build and this is the reason because i can t really rate this team, but anyway i ve some advice to give you about the team so, let s go :)

    As I can see you are pretty weak to most common special sweepers such as SheerForceLandorus (politoed has only one switch in from the moment it is specs, yeah defensive but always not much) some Lat Twins that give you pressure since you have a pretty offense set on Jirachi and especially to DoubleBooster or simply Agilityer Thundurus that could give you 6-0 without problem, that s because him can setupp without any problem onto Jirachi, and nobody of your team can counter or just check him.

    So my suggestion are these:

    • First off, you have to change Flash Cannon onto Jirachi, i d suggest you to replace Psyshock/Water Pulse(LOL) instead of it and the reason is easy because Flash Cannon , Thundurus can setupp on it if has not good way to hit and with Psyshock you can win 1vs1 against Chansey that is an usually good check, you really dont need Flash Cannon because you have >9000 ways to hit hard Tyranitar and one of the best checker of him, i mean SDCelebi, will have not pleasure to meet your Tornadus-T. Alternativly Water pulse, to win 1vs1 against Donphan or similiar, it Hax a lot too, but i think you don t consider it because lost in coverage.
    • Well, I love Garchomp as Stealth Rock Setter, is amazing, but i usually prefer offensive set, because you have way to hit it hard the and do random damages. If you don t want to risk to set Stealth Rock i d suggest you to run Yache/Haban Berry>Rocky Helmet, that because you already have Rough Skin and an eventual Dragon/Ice attack, could force you to play a part of match with an offense without Stealth Rock inside, and you know what it does mean. My other suggestion is to use Fire Blast>Aqua Tail, it could be a bad idea from the moment you re playing under rain weather, but.. you have unpredictable factor and it s more useful especially because you more of times start with him. Obviously Naive Nature...you have to use Dragon Claw>Outrage imo, that s because you can t allow your oppo to setupp and if you re locked will have more difficulties to setupp again in case of opponent spinner.
    • As last thing, i suggest you to use LOLatias I don t know who you have to replace, with an Evs Spread of 72HP/183Satk/252Spd and a moveset of Surf/Recover/Draco Meteor/Psyshock, to definitively check Lando/Thundu, the set is to guarantee you the 3Hoko in case of Hydro Pump of ScarfTimidKeldeo, that with an eventual HP Flying/Psichic, that are new "mode" could give some problem to your main switch on it, Toxicroak and it allow you a bit bulk more without loss of offensive.

    I really have not more things to say you because this team is really cool and imo really good to use too (as soon as possible i ll try it C: ) so... hope i helped


    Show Hide

    Latias (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 72 HP / 184 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Draco Meteor
    - Psyshock
    - Recover


    Garchomp (F) @ Haban Berry
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast
    - Stealth Rock


    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Psyshock
    - Thunder
    - Calm Mind
    - Substitute
  10. Frog


    Mar 2, 2012
    48 HP/224 Attack/20 Def/216 Speed on SD toxicroak to have some bulk and outspeed dragonite as well as OHKO 248 rotom with +2 drain punch. Also RP landorus and rocks will fuck you up, but oh well.
  11. Milos


    Jul 22, 2008
    I've used a team that is basically identical to this, with the exception of Specs > LO on Torn-T and SR Mamo > Chomp, so I think I can give you some input here. First off, I agree with what dragonuser has said, Toxic on toed is a great choice. When facing bulky waters such as Rotom-W and Jellicent, hitting them with a Toxic can basically cripple them for the entirety of the match and help you in breaking them down quicker for your mons to sweep. As a matter of fact, bulky Water-types with will-o-wisp can be a real nuisance for this team, especially from Rotom-W since it can cripple Toxicroak and threaten every single one of your other mons (even Jirachi won't like being smacked with a boosted Hydro Pump).

    Obviously, you're a smart player and can usually maneuver around these problem pokemon so they may be more of a problem on paper than in actual practice. Anyway, I enjoyed reading the RMT. Well-presented and a successful team, luvdisc'd :)
  12. -Tsunami-

    -Tsunami- A Legend Fades Away...
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis the 2nd Smogon Classic Winneris a defending World Cup of Pokemon champion

    Feb 27, 2009
    Congratulations on building such a successful SPL team Harsha! You truly make me proud :)

    My only suggestion would be to possibly run Cross Chop > Drain Punch on Toxicroak to hit Pokemon such as Jirachi harder. But, yeah, it's a solid team. GJ bro.
  13. Funkasaurus

    Funkasaurus ordinary superstar
    is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Nov 11, 2011
    Hello Harsha,

    Not too much to say about this team as it is quite solid. Much of anything that I could think of has been mentioned previously by other users. Getting right into it, I agree with users, Dragonuser and Jirachi, that your bird should have Superpower to hit things like Tyranitar. Plus, a Focus Blast miss can cost you your bird, and birds are good. :( I also think that Taunt should the final move on Tornadus-T. Taunt, as you said, can prevent things like Deoxys-D from setting up SR/Spikes. With a large portion of your team lacking recovery, preventing the setting up of entry hazards can be quite helpful for this team. Next, you can use user Choice Band Garchomp over your current chomper set to help put holes in your opponent's defenses. CB chomper is quite the offensive powerhouse and using it on an offensive team such as this is not a bad thing. Chomper can do hefty damage to any physical wall not named Skarmory, so this chomper can help with the Jellicent weakness that you claim as a CB Outrage to a Sp Def Jellicent OHKOs a large percentage of the time and does 65% min to a max HP/Def variant. n_n With this change, your team doesn't have a mon to take a bunch of hits, so I recommend using user Sp Def Jirachi over your current set. A special defensive Jirachi can, obviously, tank special hits better than before and can provide Wish support. Wish can really help members of your team as it can help heal up team members who lack recovery and team members who have taken hazards damage, provided entry hazards are up, get back up to a good range of health.

    Sets (open)

    Garchomp (F) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Dragon Claw
    - Aqua Tail

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 SDef / 16 Spd
    Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
    - Iron Head
    - Thunder
    - Wish
    - Stealth Rock

    Great team and good luck! (°ᴥ°)
  14. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude !
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Mar 15, 2012
    Hey Harsha nice team! This looks like a very solid rain team that abuses two of the big BW2 threats Keldeo and Tornadus-T.

    As you mentioned Jellicent can be an issue for your team to handle, especially if it carries Will-o-Wisp because then it is capable of crippling Toxicroak and even Garchomp, making them pretty much useless. Although not to common Gyarados looks like a threat to this team. If it gets up a Dragon Dance and manages to KO something and pick up a Moxie boost your team will have a very hard time taking its rain boosted Waterfall. With Dragon Dance / Waterfall / Bounce / Earthqauke he can hit Keldeo, Jirachi and Toxicroak super effectively while after a boost or two and in rain Garchomp and Tornadus-T won't like taking a Waterfall. It pretty much forces Garchomp to go for Outrage otherwise Gyarados can set up on it easily. Although with Sucker Punch Toxicroak has some hope of beating it SubDD varaints are also dangerous and can set up on Toxicroak and Garchomp with a combination of Substitute and Intimidate.

    To help against Gyarados you could use Hidden Power [Electric]>Hidden Power [Grass] on Politoed which still lets you hit your biggest threat super effectively Jellicent while also being able to smash Gyarados. However this change does leave you easily walled by Gastrodon so fitting Hidden Power [Grass] on Tornadus-T or using Psyshock on Sub+CM Jirachi could be great changes to accompany Hidden Power [Electric] on Politoed. Another thing you could do is use Choice Band Garchomp like Funkasaurus suggested and fit Stone Edge on the set somewhere a CB Stone Edge will surely ensure offensive DD Gyarados can't set up on Garchomp. Choice Band Garchomp as mentioned by Funkasaurus makes you less weak to Jellicent and Gastrodon so perhaps trying Hidden Power [Electric] on Politoed in conjunction with this change is a good idea although I would say thats an opptional change.

    anyway great team luvdisc'd also I have done this rate on my phone in the middle of the night because I love you so much/can't sleep.

    Show Hide

    .Hidden Power [Grass]--->Hidden Power [Electric] (oppitional)

  15. BKC

    BKC It's always nice to be included in a sentence someone says.
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 16 Championis a defending World Cup of Pokemon championis the Smogon Tour Season 22 Champion

    May 22, 2010

    anyways jellicent gives this team absolute hell. jellicent + torn-t counter will beat you pretty much every time...but thats rain and the stupid matchup bullshit it brings to the metagame. you could give nasty plot thund-t a shot somewhere, as it murders jellicent and is very hard to wall for sand balanced/stall teams [where jelli is most commonly seen].

    i think sr landorus-t would be really cool over chomp. ive used sr chomp before and i find that land-t does the job better because of its sweet fighting resist, intimidate, and uturn, which is excellent for momentum that an offensive team like this obviously loves.

    just some ideas the team is standard but its still solid so gj and stuff etc
  16. Limitless

    Limitless Success is the best revenge.
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Jun 15, 2008
    I'm gonna make this straight to the point, as that is what team rating should be.

    • Toxicroak provides no use whatsoever on your team. Your entire team is based around breaking special walls, so having a physical breaker is pointless.
    • I'd replace Toxicroak with a pivot Celebi and put Stealth Rocks on it. This will allow you to make Garchomp a Sub SD set, which can be used later in the game. Celebi also helps with the special attacker problem in the aforementioned posts.
    • Making Garchomp Sub SD solves the sun team problem, as it's no longer forced to make an entrance early game.
    • Superpower on Torn-T for aforementioned reasons.
    • Since you no longer have an issue with sun teams, you should now make Politoed a defensive variant.
    • These edits should help your sun, special attacker, and pointless Pokemon issues.
  17. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 18, 2011
    I actually have a variant with Mamoswine and Choice Specs Tornadus-T xD. Yeah, I'll give Toxic a shot, it actually sounds pretty useful. Thanks for the input (°ᴥ°)!

    Yes, the legendary team that my opponent used that beat my own teammate (°ᴥ°). I haven't really used Cross Chop in BW2 because Drain Punch KOes a lot of the slower metagame, and it heals off a lot of health, but it might be worth a shot to OHKO stuff (though it has the same accuracy as Stone Edge 9.9). Thanks for the rate!

    If I take away EVs from Attack, Toxicroak loses the chance to OHKO Tornadus-T without Stealth Rock at +2 (actually a fairly common situation). Also I'm not sure where Rock Polish Landorus will set up against my team unless I'm errantly spamming Hidden Power Grass on Specs Politoed, lol.

    I'm honestly not really sure where Latias could fit either, as there really isn't enough space for it on this team. I'm not that scared of Rotom-W though, as I can spam repeated Hydro Pumps and take it down pretty easily actually. The Jirachi and Garchomp changes seem pretty cool, I'd give them a shot if the round wasn't about to end! Thanks for the rate!

    I don't really like Celebi because it doesn't have the attacking prowess that Garchomp brings, and it's sorta a sitting duck against Thundurus-T, and I can't give it many setup opportunities early on. Landorus is actually not that tough to face because it can't really set up against anything on my team, and Tornadus-T can tank a non-Hidden Power Ice Landorus, while Keldeo can tank a non-Psychic one. Thanks for the rate!

    I'll try that out, it seems like a good way to preserve my attacking prowess while keeping a Steel-type and Stealth Rock, though I do feel like I'd be a bit weaker to Chansey. Thanks for the rate! (°ᴥ°)

    I use Hidden Power Ice because I need it to revenge KO Dragonite, Salamence, and other Dragon-types, as Hydro Pump will only 2HKO them, and I only have one Steel-type, which isn't particularly bulky. Thanks for the rate though!

    I don't really like Jolly on Toxicroak because it misses out on way too many KOs. I can't beat Tornadus-T without Stealth Rock at +2 if I run Jolly, and there are a lot of times where I really am glad I had the power Adamant grants. Thanks for the rate though!

    Yeah, I actually remember facing your version with Terrakion on the ladder. I'll give the spread a shot, as I hadn't thought about trying to outpace Rotom-W and beat it down before it can do anything. I don't really like Sleep Talk on Tornadus-T because I feel like Taunt has more utility in that it prevents hazards, but I could see some times where Breloom would be annoying, so I'll give it a shot. I do have Tornadus-T, Keldeo, and Toxicroak who can already beat down Breloom pretty easily, but it's still worth a test. I'll also try out the Garchomp spread, a lot of people seem to think it's a good change. Thanks for the rate!

    I used to use Superpower but I always got disappointed at how little it did to stuff like Heatran and Ferrothorn. Taunt is definitely a more useful option on Tornadus-T though, and I've been using it more than Hidden Power Ice. Toxic on Politoed seems really cool, I haven't considered that. I'll definitely give Focus Sash Garchomp a go, especially because getting an OHKO on Thundurus-T is sweet. Thanks for the rate!


    I've never actually thought about that change, but it seems like a cool idea in that I get a better defensive backbone and more physical power, and I can still keep paralysis. If I do run specially defensive Jirachi, I'd probably go with Body Slam in order to paralyze Thundurus-T because that's probably my biggest threat, and I'd have to cope with taking down Jellicent between Garchomp and Tornadus-T (which is doable). Thanks for the rate! (°ᴥ°)

    I actually haven't had any problems with Gyarados because it's so uncommon, and Keldeo actually 2HKOes it with Hydro Pump haha, so just weakening it early on is generally enough, especially because it will take Stealth Rock damage early on. Considering Hidden Power Grass on Tornadus-T might be useful, but I think Taunt is too useful to pass up. I mostly use Hidden Power Grass on Politoed for Gastrodon, and I'll only risk using it against Jellicent if it's already been weakened by Jirachi. I'll definitely try the Choice Band Garchomp with Stone Edge though! Thanks for the rate SPD, I am grateful that you took time out of your sleep cycle for me!! :heart:


    You too see the irony in the gender discrepancy n_n

    Anyways, yeah Jellicent is pretty rough, but you're right, as a Jellicent + a Tornadus-T counter is pretty much bad matchup that I'll have to fight my way out of with Jirachi (and that's hell). Nasty Plot Thundurus-T might be cool, but yeah it's definitely hard to fit on unless I forgo Stealth Rock or Toxicroak. If I tried Landorus-T, it would probably be best with something else that outspeeds Thundurus-T over Toxicroak (or my own Thundurus-T). Thanks for the rate, those are some cool ideas!

    When you brought this up yesterday, I considered the changes and they actually seemed pretty cool in that they make the slight bulky Water weakness (and less slight one to Jellicent) a thing of the past, but then I realized that Toxicroak was actually kinda helpful in that it provides immediate sweeping power against even faster teams due to Sucker Punch, and it absorbs Water-type moves. Celebi does provide a status absorber and a lot of other things, though, so it definitely isn't a change I should overlook. SD Garchomp seems cool, most sun teams have trouble with just Garchomp anyways, but I'm sure SD Garchomp puts a lot more pressure on the opponent. Thanks for the rate!

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