¿Cloning is hacking?

[Raikou]

If wifi cloning is "hacking", I guess that makes all of us who used the missingno glitch in R/B/Y unforgiveable "hackers". And encountering missingno or using the item dupe trick was just as immoral as using a cheat device. Right? :)

Morally, any exploiting/cheating is wrong, but in the same way you have no room to criticize your opponent's religion or lifestyle choices, you can't really tell someone to abide by your morals. What you can do is prevent tangible, detectable cheating that affects competitive battling- like wonderguard Spiritombs, or pokes created with AR. That can be enforced, because neither is possible in the actual game. And in official tournaments and MLG ladders, hacks are not allowed.

So, arguing this from a moral standpoint is going to get you as far as making a religion thread and telling everyone why they should convert to islam. No one is going to change their minds, it's a matter of opinion.

 

[sniDer]

If you don't give a shit about breeding, take it to Shoddy, this is a competitive website but the concept of Pokemon is a complete game, which includes breeding and training, is that not part of being competitive?

You are using it as an excuse to give you an edge over people who don't hack. Plain and simple, otherwise you would have no problem with leaving it alone and playing on a sim, where your unfair advantage is diminished.

That's not my problem. My only issue is when people think that clonning is not taking an unfair advantage over people that doesn't do it. Clonning and hacking gives you advantage, period.

 

[AgostonF]

What the hell, sniDer, Damanzi just owned you to hell and back. You just posted that you pretty much don't give a shit about breeding. It obviously is your problem. Of course it gives you an advantage. Honestly that's the most obvious statement I've read in this thread so far. So does all perfect IVs on shoddy. And really, it isn't such an unfair advantage when ANYBODY can do it if they wanted to. That's like saying..

Bob gets a brand new car because Billy is giving them out.

Jim doesn't want a car from Billy, even though it's free.

You can't really say Bob has an unfair advantage over Jim because if Jim wanted a car he could just ask Billy.

 

[sniDer]

Uh? Owned? Really, you have to read well, my only statement is that people who clones pokes shouldn't be saying crap about legit hackers in they trade threads. That's all, AgostonF, it's nothing more. The other statements are just to show how close is clonning to legit hacking.

I don't care much about competitive battling (Dragon team FTW!) or breeding, I just don't like clonners to think they are doing something that doesn't gives they advantage.

And your example... well...

 

[QibingZero]

If wifi cloning is "hacking", I guess that makes all of us who used the missingno glitch in R/B/Y unforgiveable "hackers". And encountering missingno or using the item dupe trick was just as immoral as using a cheat device. Right? :)

Morally, any exploiting/cheating is wrong, but in the same way you have no room to criticize your opponent's religion or lifestyle choices, you can't really tell someone to abide by your morals. What you can do is prevent tangible, detectable cheating that affects competitive battling- like wonderguard Spiritombs, or pokes created with AR. That can be enforced, because neither is possible in the actual game. And in official tournaments and MLG ladders, hacks are not allowed.

So, arguing this from a moral standpoint is going to get you as far as making a religion thread and telling everyone why they should convert to islam. No one is going to change their minds, it's a matter of opinion.

You've completely missed the point that you yourself were trying to make in the first place. Your morals view hacking as a bad thing, and as such, cloning could never be grouped alongside hacking, or it too would be 'wrong'. Pokemon created with an AR affect competitive battling and yet cloned ones do not? That's laughable.

You mention that everyone has their own opinion and that this is nothing more than a matter of opinion, and yet somehow you find yourself able to state that all pokemon created via AR are strictly as wrong as pokemon with illegal movesets and abilities. I mean, you came into this thread, said that arguing this subject from a moral standpoint is worthless, then proceeded to do just that!

 

[AgostonF]

While my example isn't perfect, I'm hoping you can get the point out of it. Anyway.. Ok, I have one thing to say about your statement.

A person who makes a legit, IV bred, EV trained, awesome pokemon by breeding for 2 weeks did ALOT of work. That person has the right to say they put alot of effort into that pokemon. By cloning the pokemon, he's just making profit over his painstakingly hard work. I think that's pretty fair.

A person who hacks up a perfect IV, ev trained pokemon, then makes 100 AR copies of it did absolutely no work at all. Then he distributes it and makes a ton of good pokemon off of it just like person one, but he put no effort into it at all.


Which one do you think deserves making a profit more than the other?

 

[QibingZero]

Which one do you think deserves making a profit more than the other?

Well, using your earlier logic, the guy with the AR does. You know, he was smart enough to do it.

I said it before, you can't have it both ways. In your pseudo-economy, the person who puts in the most effort gets the least 'profit' every time, because that person is the one breeding for every single pokemon he wants and not even cloning. If he attempts to trade something, you know it's something original that he caught/bred or traded another caught/bred pokemon for. Someone who clones doesn't even attempt to come anywhere near the purity of that guy, or the 'profits' of the AR guy. Of course, the AR guy isn't going to go through the process of trading most of the time anyway, because he doesn't even need to.

 

[sniDer]

While my example isn't perfect, I'm hoping you can get the point out of it. Anyway.. Ok, I have one thing to say about your statement.

A person who makes a legit, IV bred, EV trained, awesome pokemon by breeding for 2 weeks did ALOT of work. That person has the right to say they put alot of effort into that pokemon. By cloning the pokemon, he's just making profit over his painstakingly hard work. I think that's pretty fair.

A person who hacks up a perfect IV, ev trained pokemon, then makes 100 AR copies of it did absolutely no work at all. Then he distributes it and makes a ton of good pokemon off of it just like person one, but he put no effort into it at all.


Which one do you think deserves making a profit more than the other?

I understand your point. But in the same way, I can argue that the one with an AR work a lot of much harder (not just pressing buttons) in a Twik-E-Mart for buying that thing... this is going to end nowhere... This is not about who deserves more: What if I'm a natrual genious in battling and don't have to spent countless hours battling with other people, and I beat a dude who worked a lot to make his team but doesn't have the talent I have (I don't have such tallent, it's just an example) and then I destroy him with my brilliant team... Is that fair? No, because almost random conditions makes me a poke-genious. The same is for AR: random conditions makes me have a AR.

See, my problem is not about deserving or battling, is just that clonners thinks that what they are doing is less unfair than hacking, that's all.

 

[Kijin]

*a lot of stuff about wonderguard spiritomb*

None of that has to do with cloning using GTS vs. cloning via Action Replay, which, regardless, seems to be a topic we agree on. I have never brought up the subject of Wonderguard Spiritomb as it's irrelevant to a discussion on cloning. I don't see what the possibility of making a Wonderguard Spiritomb has to do with cloning at all. Since it's a topic I have not brought up and could care less about and seems to be one you don't seem very interested in, I think it would be safe to drop it.

If wifi cloning is "hacking", I guess that makes all of us who used the missingno glitch in R/B/Y unforgiveable "hackers". And encountering missingno or using the item dupe trick was just as immoral as using a cheat device. Right? :)

Morally, any exploiting/cheating is wrong

If only for the sake of creating "lots o' items" and/or creating copies of Pokemon, yeah, it's all basically the same (but this falls both ways; if one isn't considered cheating/hacking/exploting, the other isn't really either). However, I certainly agree that doing this is far from unforgivable.
Morally, any exploitation is wrong. But sometimes you need to weigh cost (you're immoral, minimal time expenditure) vs. benefit (competitive battling is much more open to the general gaming community on a much wider scale, interactivity is increased exponentially, testing movesets/team combinations is much faster in an in-game environment [as opposed to a simulator], breeding time for an entire team is cut drastically).

I think whether it's considered hacking is definitely a person-to-person thing, but in either instance you do have a situation where the negatives are greatly trumped by the positives. And ultimately, what's good for the game is good for Nintendo and its player base.

 

[AgostonF]

None of that has to do with cloning using GTS vs. cloning via Action Replay, which, regardless, seems to be a topic we agree on. I have never brought up the subject of Wonderguard Spiritomb as it's irrelevant to a discussion on cloning. I don't see what the possibility of making a Wonderguard Spiritomb has to do with cloning at all. Since it's a topic I have not brought up and could care less about and seems to be one you don't seem very interested in, I think it would be safe to drop it.

Yeah, alright. The whole point of the wonderguard spiritomb was an example of a pokemon you cant get without exploiting glitches. Anyway, yeah, we have the cloning part cleared up.

 

[Raikou]

You've completely missed the point that you yourself were trying to make in the first place. Your morals view hacking as a bad thing, and as such, cloning could never be grouped alongside hacking, or it too would be 'wrong'. Pokemon created with an AR affect competitive battling and yet cloned ones do not? That's laughable.

You mention that everyone has their own opinion and that this is nothing more than a matter of opinion, and yet somehow you find yourself able to state that all pokemon created via AR are strictly as wrong as pokemon with illegal movesets and abilities. I mean, you came into this thread, said that arguing this subject from a moral standpoint is worthless, then proceeded to do just that!

You mistook what I wrote. I consider both forms of cloning the same. I meant creating a Pokemon with Pokesav, not cloning it with AR.

And the reason Pokemon created with AR/Pokesav are as wrong as wonderguard Spiritombs is because their data is not legitimate as far as the game is concerned; they are just as impossible, because the game generates Pokemon data differently than Pokemon makers and AR codes do. So, official tournaments and MLG can enforce their no hacks rule if they really want to, while there is no possible way to enforce a no clones rule. My whole point is morals are impossible to enforce, but tangible forms of cheating can be enforced.

And I never said what my own morals on this are (aside from a sarcastic example using missingno), just that I follow the rules laid down by the places where competitive Pokemon matters.

 

[AgostonF]

I understand your point. But in the same way, I can argue that the one with an AR work a lot of much harder (not just pressing buttons) in a Twik-E-Mart for buying that thing... this is going to end nowhere... This is not about who deserves more: What if I'm a natrual genious in battling and don't have to spent countless hours battling with other people, and I beat a dude who worked a lot to make his team but doesn't have the talent I have (I don't have such tallent, it's just an example) and then I destroy him with my brilliant team... Is that fair? No, because almost random conditions makes me a poke-genious. The same is for AR: random conditions makes me have a AR.

See, my problem is not about deserving or battling, is just that clonners thinks that what they are doing is less unfair than hacking, that's all.

I dont really know how battling got involved in this. I dont care how good anybody is at battling, that isnt my main concern right now. The only thing Im trying to prove is that hacking up legit pokemon is less fair than cloning non hacked legit pokemon. And you having an AR isnt a random condition, you made a decision to go to the store and buy an AR and hack up a team for yourself. It didnt just fall from the sky.

 

[glassbutterfly]

cloning is making an impact on competitive battling, but only to the extent where that person can exercise many different teams. so how is this an 'unfair' advantage? if advantage you mean giving them the edge in terms of winning the match, then no. clones don't posses super types or max stats. cloning merely promotes variety and diversity. it's no way shifting the metagame in a huge way.

 

[Kijin]

cloning merely promotes variety and diversity. it's no way shifting the metagame in a huge way.

I don't disagree with you, but I do mean to nitpick: cloning actually stagnates variety and diversity rather than promoting it. It doesn't do so at a very large level (as there are lots of people breeding lots of Pokemon to trade with lots of other people for lots of their other Pokemon), but creating clones that other people will use competitively will inherently minimize the number of that given Pokemon out and about the metagame.

Take, for example, Jibaku's Jirachi. 9 times out of 10, if you run into a Jirachi with the moveset Wish, Reflect, Zen Headbutt, and U-Turn, it's not going to be some guy's creation. It will most likely be the same Jirachi that is so frequently traded on these boards.

 

[QibingZero]

You mistook what I wrote. I consider both forms of cloning the same. I meant creating a Pokemon with Pokesav, not cloning it with AR.

And the reason Pokemon created with AR/Pokesav are as wrong as wonderguard Spiritombs is because their data is not legitimate as far as the game is concerned; they are just as impossible, because the game generates Pokemon data differently than Pokemon makers and AR codes do. So, official tournaments and MLG can enforce their no hacks rule if they really want to, while there is no possible way to enforce a no clones rule. My whole point is morals are impossible to enforce, but tangible forms of cheating can be enforced.

And I never said what my own morals on this are (aside from a sarcastic example using missingno), just that I follow the rules laid down by the places where competitive Pokemon matters.

So you're absolutely certain that every pokemon created and not cloned can be detected?

Edit: I'm not sure what you're referring to with MLG, but iirc they mention something specifically about hacks including 'glitches in the game'.

 

[Steven718]

I don't disagree with you, but I do mean to nitpick: cloning actually stagnates variety and diversity rather than promoting it. It doesn't do so at a very large level (as there are lots of people breeding lots of Pokemon to trade with lots of other people for lots of their other Pokemon), but creating clones that other people will use competitively will inherently minimize the number of that given Pokemon out and about the metagame.

Take, for example, Jibaku's Jirachi. 9 times out of 10, if you run into a Jirachi with the moveset Wish, Reflect, Zen Headbutt, and U-Turn, it's not going to be some guy's creation. It will most likely be the same Jirachi that is so frequently traded on these boards.

It is some guys creation, it's Jibaku's. And all that was traded to get that Jirachi, someone else spent hours and hours on.

 

[Kijin]

It is some guys creation, it's Jibaku's. And all that was traded to get that Jirachi, someone else spent hours and hours on.

I meant "some guy" as in some random person you're battling. And that's just the point I was making; we've all traded for it, meaning if we use it, that's the one we're using and not some other one we've spent hours resetting RSE for.

 

[Steven718]

I meant "some guy" as in some random person you're battling. And that's just the point I was making; we've all traded for it, meaning if we use it, that's the one we're using and not some other one we've spent hours resetting RSE for.

No, but we did spend hours resetting/breeding for something to trade for it.

If I spend all of my time farming corn, and I want tomatoes, what am I going to do? Probably find a tomatoe farmer and trade him corn for tomatoes.

 

[Kijin]

No, but we did spend hours resetting/breeding for something to trade for it.

If I spend all of my time farming corn, and I want tomatoes, what am I going to do? Probably find a tomatoe farmer and trade him corn for tomatoes.

Do you even know what I was originally commenting on?

 

[QibingZero]

No, but we did spend hours resetting/breeding for something to trade for it.

If I spend all of my time farming corn, and I want tomatoes, what am I going to do? Probably find a tomatoe farmer and trade him corn for tomatoes.

Ridiculous metaphors like that simply do not work. We'd have to imagine both sides took the time to farm one ear of corn and one tomato each, and then somehow cloned them into the thousands, and traded away one of the clones. Meanwhile, they'd be putting every other tomato and corn farmer out of business, as long as theirs remained better products. Of course, we'd then say 'Well at least they took the time to grow ONE, unlike those dirty bastards who just wish all theirs into existance!'

Of course, if we could do such things with food, we'd all be embracing the last group for feeding the poor. =P

 

[sniDer]

Ridiculous metaphors like that simply do not work. We'd have to imagine both sides took the time to farm one ear of corn and one tomato each, and then somehow cloned them into the thousands, and traded away one of the clones. Meanwhile, they'd be putting every other tomato and corn farmer out of business, as long as theirs remained better products. Of course, we'd then say 'Well at least they took the time to grow ONE, unlike those dirty bastards who just wish all theirs into existance!'

Of course, if we could do such things with food, we'd all be embracing the last group for feeding the poor. =P

Well, then let's feed the poor and end this thread. We all agree these:

1.- Clonning is not equal to hacking.
2.- Hacking legit and clonning is to get an advantage over people that doesn't do that.
3.- Cheap hacking is out of discussion since it's crap (unless you're doing it for fun).
4.- :kongler:This guy's ugly.

 

[xcfrisco]

So you're absolutely certain that every pokemon created and not cloned can be detected?

Doesn't Nintendo do this in all their tournaments?

And to the above poster who told me if using AR/PokeSav would be "allowable", no. My sentiments are that anything you do with your game that does not require the use of outside devices (ie crap not given by Nintendo) is by definition "legit."

I don't really see how you can all me a hypocrite. Cloning would never produce Wonderguard Spiritombs, or stuff that isn't possible in-game. *And to use AR to clone prefectly capable pokemon, there's a "legit" way to do it in-game that doesn't require the use of outside devices.*

(Bold=bad)

*I can see the arguments for this point, but I think that just the use of outside devices promotes the creation of pokemon that haven't been created in-game.*

 

[Steven718]

Ridiculous metaphors like that simply do not work. We'd have to imagine both sides took the time to farm one ear of corn and one tomato each, and then somehow cloned them into the thousands, and traded away one of the clones. Meanwhile, they'd be putting every other tomato and corn farmer out of business, as long as theirs remained better products. Of course, we'd then say 'Well at least they took the time to grow ONE, unlike those dirty bastards who just wish all theirs into existance!'

Of course, if we could do such things with food, we'd all be embracing the last group for feeding the poor. =P

Except it's possible to grow thousands of ears of mostly equal quality corn in one harvest, something not possible in game but made possible with cloning.

And yes, when you are trading ANYTHING, the better product gets the better business. I like hersheys, and when I go to the store I can pretty much guarantee a hersheys bar will always taste like a hersheys bar. They also sell more candy than many other companies, it doesn't mean the other companies don't exist. Just because Jibaku's Jirachi exists doesn't mean other people don't trade their own (they do, and I've seen them traded succesfully on threads.)

 

[Raikou]

So you're absolutely certain that every pokemon created and not cloned can be detected?

Edit: I'm not sure what you're referring to with MLG, but iirc they mention something specifically about hacks including 'glitches in the game'.

Yes. Which is why I consider them beyond the limits of the game, and thus, against the rules.

And I doubt MLG means glitches such as cloning, that is impossible to enforce. They probably mean things like using missingno in battle (or something similar).

 

[Kijin]

*I can see the arguments for this point, but I think that just the use of outside devices promotes the creation of pokemon that haven't been created in-game.*

Unless someone busts out their Wonderguard Spiritomb or Rock Head Volt Tackle, Flare Blitz, Head Smash, Wood Hammer Aerodactyl on you over WiFi, why does what a person creates in their game matter to you? Why does the potential for that mean that using AR for cloning is somehow a taboo?