¿Cloning is hacking?

[QibingZero]

Yes. Which is why I consider them beyond the limits of the game, and thus, against the rules.

And I doubt MLG means glitches such as cloning, that is impossible to enforce. They probably mean things like using missingno in battle (or something similar).

I'd personally like to see evidence, or at least an explanation, of how exactly someone can determine if it's hacked or not. Is there information in the code that is written by the game that only the designers have? Information that programs like Pokesav do not write and cannot access? At official tournaments do they carry around devices that can detect if your game was ever touched by an AR before?

It's incredibly simple to create pokemon that appear as all others do using Pokesav - who can determine it's authenticity and how?


Also, from the MLG rules:

"The use of any hacked Pokemon is strictly prohibited. The term "hacked" refers to any Pokemon acquired and/or enhanced through third party cheating devices, glitches in the game, or any so deemed illegal way. Should you suspect your opponent of using hacked Pokemon, please submit a ticket."

 

[Raikou]

At JAA, they filtered out cheaters.

And how do you suggest they go about enforcing a no clones rule, if that's what it means (which I doubt)? Clones of legitimate Pokemon are not "acquired" through cheating devices or glitches, it's having the same exact 22-ish lines of data in 2 places, and that original data was obtained legitimately, not through cheating devices/glitches. I guess you can say you "acquired" one of them, but which one? There's no way to tell which one is real because they both are. AR'd stuff, not so. I suppose it's a matter of interpretation here.

 

[xcfrisco]

To Kijin; Now what exactly are we arguing about in regards to using outside devices to create pokemon? I care about what people make in their games because pokemon is an interactive experience. I come into contact over battling and trading with these "legit" pokemon and not "legit" (I think my definition of "legit" is pretty fair). I dont want to deal with pokemon that are not "legit", thus I care about what people make in thier games.

 

[Kijin]

To Kijin; Now what exactly are we arguing about in regards to using outside devices to create pokemon? I care about what people make in their games because pokemon is an interactive experience. I come into contact over battling and trading with these "legit" pokemon and not "legit" (I think my definition of "legit" is pretty fair). I dont want to deal with pokemon that are not "legit", thus I care about what people make in thier games.

From your previous posts, I gather that you do not consider cloning through Action Replay a "legitimate" form of cloning because it involves an outside device. Specifically, in your post previous to the one you respond to, you cite that these outside devices are dangerous to clone Pokemon because they can also be used to create the oft cited "Wonderguard Spiritomb."

As a way to try and better understand why you believe use of AR is inherently evil because of it's ability to hax up Pokemon, I asked why the potential existence of Wonderguard Spiritomb affects your perception of Action Replay (which you still haven't answered). Additionally, why does a device that is capable of producing a Wonderguard Spiritomb automatically make cloning on that same device less legitimate due simply to the fact that it is capable of creating said fake Pokemon? *edit: And, finally, what does one have to do with the other?

 

[QibingZero]

And how do you suggest they go about enforcing a no clones rule, if that's what it means (which I doubt)? Clones of legitimate Pokemon are not "acquired" through cheating devices or glitches, it's having the same exact 22-ish lines of data in 2 places, and that data was obtained legitimately, not through cheating devices/glitches. I guess you can say you "acquired" one of them, but which one? There's no way to tell which one is real because they both are. AR'd stuff, not so. I suppose it's a matter of interpretation here.

Honestly, I don't know how they'd go about enforcing the rule in the first place. I would guess that they have the rule so that in situations with illegal movesets and EVs they can disqualify the offender. As you can see from my earlier post, I can't even understand how you would actually detect a well-hacked pokemon even if you had access to the actual save.

 

[xcfrisco]

snip

Wonderguard Spiritomb is just an exaggereated example for something never created in game. I'm of the knowledge that Nintendo will DQ people for having illegal pokemon/data in their game, and the tools they use to discover these illegal pokemon will detect any traces of AR, but not Wi-fi cloned pokemon.

That is why the two are linked, in regards to the use of of AR for creating perfectly viable and unviable pokemon.

*Ninja edit, this goes to QibingZero too*

 

[Kijin]

Wonderguard Spiritomb is just an exaggereated example for something never created in game. I'm of the knowledge that Nintendo will DQ people for having illegal pokemon/data in their game, and the tools they use to discover these illegal pokemon will detect any traces of AR, but not Wi-fi cloned pokemon.

That is why the two are linked, in regards to the use of of AR for creating perfectly viable and unviable pokemon.

*Ninja edit, this goes to QibingZero too*

That's not what I've read from pretty much all of Raikou's posts on the issue.

 

[xcfrisco]

lol, looks like me and Raikou think alike.

Actually, it took me a couple of posts to realize what I was getting at. My definition of "legit" is ultimatley what Nintendo allows in their tournament.

 

[sa17dk]

A person who hacks up a perfect IV, ev trained pokemon, then makes 100 AR copies of it did absolutely no work at all. Then he distributes it and makes a ton of good pokemon off of it just like person one, but he put no effort into it at all.

Why would a person with an AR trade in the first place?

 

[The_Rider]

to get LEGIT pokemon or to scam people atleast

 

[Devastation]

to get LEGIT pokemon or to scam people atleast

Yes, but if they have an action replay, why would they need to scam people to further benefit themselves? If you have omnipotent power, you don't use it to scam God so that you can get more unlimited power. You already have enough. <<

I personally think that cloning is pretty bad. I mean, it's not what Nintendo wanted to happen. IVs and EVs were allowed to be in existence, (like, the IV man in Emerald) so it's not like we're abusing the in game functions there. But cloning is a GLITCH and therefore against the will of nintendo. THerefore, you can't say it's right if you're doing something Nintendo never wanted you to do.

I can see the benefits of cloning, but it doesn't stop me from boycotting it. I personally think it's laziness and a way of trying to get stuff out of people. What's the advantage of having an identical Pokemon to your cloning trader? There's no enjoyment in raising it, knowing that someone else (potentially multiple someone elses) is/are training the exact same Pokemon.

So yeah, I'm against the whole cloning thing. Flame me if you like. :P

 

[The_Rider]

Some people enjoy that, hacking pokemon easily then trading them for copies/clones of pokemon others worked so hard for, it's some sort of psychological disorder(lol). Anyways boycott cloning as much as you want doesn't really affect anyone that much, your principles, your life, enjoy it.

 

[Cooper]

But cloning is a GLITCH and therefore against the will of nintendo.

You mean despite the fact that there has been at least one way of cloning in every pokemon generation? Come on, Nintendo is filled with gamers. They have to understand the frustration that comes with breeding, so it could be argued that they sympathize with those who see cloning as necessary.

Also, it seems that everyone and their mother is using the term "competitive battling." Now, I'm fully aware that I was the one who first brought this into play, but I feel my meaning has been grossly misinterpreted. Just because I want to battle competitively, it doesn't mean I hack all of my pokemon. In fact, my six-man team was bred and trained exclusively by me. I know that many people trade for pokemon then immediately slap them on their teams, but so what? People say that breeding and training pokemon gives you a stronger "connection" with them (ignoring the fact that they're data), but that's not necessarily true.

Let's say you're a impotent parent. You and your spouse adopt a 10-year-old boy. You are in no way responsible for the birth or prior care of this child, but by taking care of him, you build very strong bonds. What's to say that you can't receive a cloned pokemon in a trade, already trained, battle with it, and learn how to use it better than the person who bred it?

Moral: Hacking Wondertomb= cheating. Manipulating game codes to have a chance of having a life= okay in an online battling community.

 

[sa17dk]

Moral: Hacking Wondertomb= cheating. Manipulating game codes to have a chance of having a life= okay in an online battling community.

Unless I misinterpreted Cooper, this is the exact point I've been trying to make.

 

[marrilpet]

Exactly. I would rather raise my team myself, because I enjoy breeding as part of the game. But if someone else doesn't, why should they have to suffer through what my be, in their eyes, the most boring part of the game in order to battle competitively over WiFi?

 

[Steven718]

Exactly. I would rather raise my team myself, because I enjoy breeding as part of the game. But if someone else doesn't, why should they have to suffer through what my be, in their eyes, the most boring part of the game in order to battle competitively over WiFi?

I don't get this. It's like an endless circle.

Person A can't compete with person B because A does not want to breed, why should A have to breed?

Person B can no longer compete with person A who decided to hack, because even with breeding, his Pokemon's IV's are inferior to person A's, but B does not want to hack. Why should B have to hack?

There is an obvious and simple answer, person A should play on a battle sim.

 

[Kijin]

I don't get this. It's like an endless circle.

Person A can't compete with person B because A does not want to breed, why should A have to breed?

Person B can no longer compete with person A who decided to hack, because even with breeding, his Pokemon's IV's are inferior to person A's, but B does not want to hack. Why should B have to hack?

If your IVs are inferior, you should try to hatch or trade for a better egg.

Aside from Speed (which always needs to be 31 on sweepers), occasionally HP (ex: odd # HP to get 4 Subs w/o dying, 401 hp to take 4 STs), and breeding for HP (which still has a pretty big range; compare Dystro's Jolteon to other traders who've bred HP Ice 70), you do not need exact IVs on your Pokemon for the sake of dealing/receiving damage. >26 IVs will yield the same % damage as 31 IVs. The only exception that is true 100% of the time for this is speed, where you absolutely need to breed speed to its maximum on a sweeper, otherwise you're guaranteed to go second against a Pokemon with the same speed tier that has bred 31 IVs into speed.

If your relevant IVs are all above that threshold (and even then, at 25, you'll have a 1% drop in damage), the only difference between you and a Pokemon with 31 ivs across the board is how much skill you wield it with. Of course, if you lose, you can still complain that "hax did it," even if you lie to yourself.

 

[Steven718]

If your IVs are inferior, you should try to hatch or trade for a better egg.

Aside from Speed (which always needs to be 31 on sweepers), occasionally HP (ex: odd # HP to get 4 Subs w/o dying, 401 hp to take 4 STs), and breeding for HP (which still has a pretty big range; compare Dystro's Jolteon to other traders who've bred HP Ice 70), you do not need exact IVs on your Pokemon for the sake of dealing/receiving damage. >26 IVs will yield the same % damage as 31 IVs. The only exception that is true 100% of the time for this is speed, where you absolutely need to breed speed to its maximum on a sweeper, otherwise you're guaranteed to go second against a Pokemon with the same speed tier that has bred 31 IVs into speed.

If your relevant IVs are all above that threshold (and even then, at 25, you'll have a 1% drop in damage), the only difference between you and a Pokemon with 31 ivs across the board is how much skill you wield it with. Of course, if you lose, you can still complain that "hax did it," even if you lie to yourself.

So again, why not just play on a battle sim?

 

[marrilpet]

Beacause then everything is perfect. With WiFi, there is at least a margin if difference between Pokemon. Additionally, WiFi records win/loss records. Shoddy doesn't.

 

[Kijin]

So again, why not just play on a battle sim?

Why battle over WiFi at all if it's possible that one of your opponents may have even a legitimate inherent advantage due to superior breeding?

Why bother breeding at all if someone somewhere along the line is going to battle you with a superior hatched Poke?

 

[Steven718]

To the above 2 posters: owned.

The only acceptable answer was the win/loss record, which makes a bit of sense but I'm sure competitor will track that when it comes out, so have fun.

 

[Raikou]

You're right- why battle at all when there are people who just hack their way to perfection. Everyone has access to the daycare man, not everyone wants to disqualify themselves from real tournaments with a gameshark. One of these methods is against the rules, why break the rules when you don't have to?

And I'd love for everyone who says they wouldn't have time for a life to state their age and social activities (and picture lol). No offense, but by being on this board and devoting time to competitive battling in the first place... you see what I'm getting at. If you have not graduated high school yet, you should have more time than you know what to do with, and if you think you're swamped now, real life is going to be a big surprise. If you have ADD or ADHD, I suppose I can understand your lack of patience. I think it's especially ironic when hardcore MMO players say they don't have the time for this game, when being a "hardcore" breeder takes a fraction of the time being a hardcore MMO player does.

I'm having deja vu here, I think this thread has already existed before.

 

[Steven718]

I'll start, though I'm anti-hack,

21 years old, I have a fiance, full time job, part time school, photo can be found at http://www.myspace.com/damanzi

 

[Cheater Hater]

This is what I see when I come back to Smogon to lurk after a couple weeks? I thought I had seen enough arguing when the topic on the bans got locked on another site I visited.

Let's take this step by step:

There are three main types of Metagames for training being advocated in this thread:
1. No hacking or cloning (the "we want to be 100% legit, no questions argument")
2. No hacking, cloning allowed (the general Smogon view for in-game)
3. Cloning and "legit" hacking allowed (the format used on Competitor and Shoddy Battle)

Almost no one wants to advocate the third view, but there's one problem that could be very large.
A: Lots of people are trying to competitively breed
B: Given enough time, everyone will eventually get the same kinds of triple-flawless Pokemon and clone them to get everything, and breeding will drop somewhat
C: The law of large numbers says every result in a probability set will happen eventually, given infinite time
D: That law says that perfect Pokemon will eventually appear for every Pokemon with random IV's given that infinite time (excluding event Pokemon like NYPC movesets)
E: If something can happen, someone will try to make it happen, especially if it provides a significant advantage in a stagnant metagame
F: With that infinite time, there will be many perfect Pokemon for most, if not all species
G: Cloning will allow anyone who cares to get those perfect Pokemon
H: As everyone gets those perfect Pokemon, Metagame 2 will be almost exactly the same as Metagame 3!

Besides that, all it takes is one well-respected trader to cross-over (not accusing anyone, just stating a possibility) and release a legit hack and Metagame 2 will be compromised.

I don't want to alarm anyone, but I'm just stating a well-founded possibility. I wouldn't expect this to happen quickly if at all (at least not until late in the generation), but we must be aware of the possibility.

 

[Raikou]

Your model works on paper, but not in practice. You're assuming that everyone who has bred will stay in the trading forums indefinately, continually trying to breed better and better things to trade for better things. In reality, once you get what you want, you tend to cycle out and newer players cycle in (most starting from scratch and thus having little to work with in terms of good iv parents). For example, I have everything I need so I don't breed anymore, nor do I browse the trade forums that much. Not everything I have is perfect but it is close enough to not make a difference to me (I'm not a perfectionist, being off by 5-10 points overall is fine). You see that with most people whose trade threads are months old. While there will occasionally be some perfect pokes, I think you underestimate how rare they are, because I haven't seen more than 2 legitimate looking ones in months, and given that newer breeders don't start out where older breeders leave off, the chance doesn't get higher as time goes on. Maybe if this generation of Pokemon was to continue for 10+ years..