¿Cloning is hacking?

[Kijin]

To the above 2 posters: owned.

The only acceptable answer was the win/loss record, which makes a bit of sense but I'm sure competitor will track that when it comes out, so have fun.

How am I "owned" for following your pattern of thinking to where it eventually leads?
Your original point just makes you sound of facing the most competitive competition with the best legitimate Pokemon you can create. And how would you know your opponent's team is hacked when the percentages with uppermost-tier bred Pokemon don't differ at all?

It's one thing to not hack Pokemon on your own. But to say you wouldn't battle someone using legit hacks just seems kind of cowardly on the internet's premier competitive pokemon battling forum.

 

[Steven718]

Legit hacks is an oxymoron.

 

[Kijin]

Legit hacks is an oxymoron.

It's obvious from your previous two responses conversing with you borders on impossible.

 

[Chou Toshio]

And I'd love for everyone who says they wouldn't have time for a life to state their age and social activities (and picture lol). No offense, but by being on this board and devoting time to competitive battling in the first place... you see what I'm getting at. If you have not graduated high school yet, you should have more time than you know what to do with, and if you think you're swamped now, real life is going to be a big surprise. If you have ADD or ADHD, I suppose I can understand your lack of patience. I think it's especially ironic when hardcore MMO players say they don't have the time for this game, when being a "hardcore" breeder takes a fraction of the time being a hardcore MMO player does.

I'm having deja vu here, I think this thread has already existed before.

Oh! I have it! Do I get a cookie? :naughty:

edit: In any case, I think next gen Nintendo should just drop this IV business and give every poke an equal chance of being a great representative fighter of its species as long as it is willing to put in the hard work for those evs!

This will solve this whole hacking/breeding debate, and have the added benefit of not teaching small children that once they're born, they have no chance of catching up to others who are born with more talent (better IVs). :P

 

[The_Rider]

I disagree with you Chou the IVs really seperate the good battlers/breeders from those who are either novices or are just to lazy to breed. Even your analogy was off the mark :(.

 

[sa17dk]

It's one thing to not hack Pokemon on your own. But to say you wouldn't battle someone using legit hacks just seems kind of cowardly on the internet's premier competitive pokemon battling forum.

Well said Kijin.

 

[AgostonF]

Oh man, this is getting nowhere. It's still based on opinion.

 

[The_Rider]

Oh man, this is getting nowhere. It's still based on opinion.

QFT

 

[Chou Toshio]

I disagree with you Chou the IVs really seperate the good battlers/breeders from those who are either novices or are just to lazy to breed. Even your analogy was off the mark :(.

First off, I was just trying to be funny but--

How's my analogy off? It's a constantly popular theme in Shonen anime-- is it possible for even the weak to become strong with hard work. If you're into the anime scene, I know you MUST have run into this before the Japanese are almost obsessed about this question in stories. Does hard work pay off? Can anyone get ahead? Even if I'm a loser with no talent, am I worth something?

In pokemon (the anime), the answer is always yes-- even an idiot/clutz like Ash, as long as he has passion and a dream can dream of oneday becoming a pokemon master!

Even in the anime, all you breeders are represented by Ash's newest rival, Paul. Ash really hates the attitude of his new rival-- why? Because the guy acts like a pokemon is trash if it's "weak." He catches tons of pokes, checks out their numbers, and throws them away if they're not good enough. Sound familiar? Hey, that's just like us with our boxes full of "useless" pokes that we hatched or caught, or the thousands of legendaries that we reset on-- why? Because those loser pokes had no chance of becoming any good.

Why? #1 reason-- IVs weren't good enough.

Pokemon the video game teaches you this mentality--

"Strength is something a poke is born with, and those without it are trash."

In the world of shonen anime, this is the most EVIL thing you could possibly stand for! lol

. . .

Also, while it's obvious what IVs and skilled breeding have to do with each other, the idea of a connection between IVs and skilled battlers is laughable.

What sets battlers apart are the variables they'd pick on shoddy, smarts, and lots and lots of battle experience.

Except for the very few specialy sets where lower IVs are needed (trick room pokes, bellyzard) which are really the unusual exceptions, IVs have little to do with the overall decision making. Usually, you just want the 31s.

If there were a move tutor who could give you any hidden power you wanted without caring about IVs, there'd only be a handful of pokes that'd miss the old IV system (the afformentioned specialty sets).

Well, for someone like me who hates breeding, I really could care less if the major reason for breeding disappeared.

 

[Steven718]

I am waiting for Ash to get a new rival to hack the most powerful pokes of each type into existance.

 

[Chou Toshio]

In pokemon anime world, you don't need to hax because the most illogical attacks do ridiculous amounts of damage.

ie, Movie 4 where Bayleaf 2hkos a scizor with vine whip and razor leaf. O.o

In other words, because the thing makes no sense, you might as well not bother trying . . . lol

 

[Gmax]

Look, there is no way that cloning can be called hacking. The pokemon was obtained legitimately. Therefore any copies of it out there are not violating any rules that would be bending the rules of the standard metagame. Ultimately what matters is how it affects the standard metagame, and this doesn't really ruin it, it just evens things out.

 

[Kijin]

I am waiting for Ash to get a new rival to hack the most powerful pokes of each type into existance.

That already happened. It was called, "Pokemon: The First Movie."

 

[Chou Toshio]

That already happened. It was called, "Pokemon: The First Movie."

AKA Pokemon: Attack of the Clones xD

 

[DougJustDoug]

Look, there is no way that cloning can be called hacking. The pokemon was obtained legitimately.

I think people are getting too hung up on the words "hacking", "cheating", etc. Cloning goes outside the intended mechanics of how the game is supposed to be played. People are seriously deluded if they think the programmers intentionally left in the cloning glitch.

I don't really care what you call it. Using the cloning glitch is a way to exploit, shortcut, "get around", avoid -- whatever -- the intended mechanics of the game. When I say this, I am not making a value judgement about people that clone. I'm not calling them "cheaters" or "hackers" or "pond scum" or any other negative appellation. I'm simply stating that they are not using the intended mechanics of the game. I clone pokemon, and I don't think I'm a bad person. I do acknowledge that I'm short-circuiting the game mechanics.

Once you start taking shortcuts, you get into a grey area. What does it really matter how much you shortcut the game? By cloning, you've already decided to avoid the basics of the game itself, why not go all the way and save yourself as much time as possible by using an AR? If the end result isn't an illegal pokemon (illegal moves, stats, etc.) then it really doesn't matter how much time you saved. Instead of calling cloners and AR-users "cheaters", which really seems to offend most of the cloners out there, how about we call both groups "time-savers"?

If you aren't going to take the "long way" (playing the game normally) -- then don't get too caught up in drawing distinctions between the classes of people that don't want to waste a lot of time. There are differences (external device vs. no device), but the differences are negligible.

 

[sa17dk]

I think people are getting too hung up on the words "hacking", "cheating", etc. Cloning goes outside the intended mechanics of how the game is supposed to be played. People are seriously deluded if they think the programmers intentionally left in the cloning glitch.

I don't really care what you call it. Using the cloning glitch is a way to exploit, shortcut, "get around", avoid -- whatever -- the intended mechanics of the game. When I say this, I am not making a value judgement about people that clone. I'm not calling them "cheaters" or "hackers" or "pond scum" or any other negative appellation. I'm simply stating that they are not using the intended mechanics of the game. I clone pokemon, and I don't think I'm a bad person. I do acknowledge that I'm short-circuiting the game mechanics.

Once you start taking shortcuts, you get into a grey area. What does it really matter how much you shortcut the game? By cloning, you've already decided to avoid the basics of the game itself, why not go all the way and save yourself as much time as possible by using an AR? If the end result isn't an illegal pokemon (illegal moves, stats, etc.) then it really doesn't matter how much time you saved. Instead of calling cloners and AR-users "cheaters", which really seems to offend most of the cloners out there, how about we call both groups "time-savers"?

If you aren't going to take the "long way" (playing the game normally) -- then don't get too caught up in drawing distinctions between the classes of people that don't want to waste a lot of time. There are differences (external device vs. no device), but the differences are negligible.

Doug knows what he's talking about.


And to those of you saying "Well breeding for 1 Gible is good enough for me to justify cloning 100 more."

No it is obviously not, otherwise the game would do that for you without having to EXPLOIT a GLITCH.

 

[Raikou]

I think people are getting too hung up on the words "hacking", "cheating", etc. Cloning goes outside the intended mechanics of how the game is supposed to be played. People are seriously deluded if they think the programmers intentionally left in the cloning glitch.

I don't really care what you call it. Using the cloning glitch is a way to exploit, shortcut, "get around", avoid -- whatever -- the intended mechanics of the game. When I say this, I am not making a value judgement about people that clone. I'm not calling them "cheaters" or "hackers" or "pond scum" or any other negative appellation. I'm simply stating that they are not using the intended mechanics of the game. I clone pokemon, and I don't think I'm a bad person. I do acknowledge that I'm short-circuiting the game mechanics.

Once you start taking shortcuts, you get into a grey area. What does it really matter how much you shortcut the game? By cloning, you've already decided to avoid the basics of the game itself, why not go all the way and save yourself as much time as possible by using an AR? If the end result isn't an illegal pokemon (illegal moves, stats, etc.) then it really doesn't matter how much time you saved. Instead of calling cloners and AR-users "cheaters", which really seems to offend most of the cloners out there, how about we call both groups "time-savers"?

If you aren't going to take the "long way" (playing the game normally) -- then don't get too caught up in drawing distinctions between the classes of people that don't want to waste a lot of time. There are differences (external device vs. no device), but the differences are negligible.

I already explained this. AR/Pokesav created Pokemon have data that is impossible in game. To the naked eye, they appear to be fine, but coding wise, they are impossible for the game to produce. So, if you allow only cheating that is theoretically possible in game, then this would be as banned as 999 stat Mewtwos. One's just more obvious than the other.

 

[strikesocom]

I don't think it's "bad" either. From a competitive battling standpoint, it's irrelevant IMO. In metagame battles, it's about the player, not the pokes.

But, I think the rampant cloning and cheating has really diminished the value of hard work in creating a unique "digital pet" that has value because of all the hard work put into it. In older Pokemon games, a level 100 poke (any breed) was great, just because it was so high-level. If it was bred well and EV trained, it was fucking awesome! Now it's dime-a-dozen on GTS.

This has no real impact on the competitive metagame, but a damn shame for the game itself. I like working hard on my pokemon and take pride in it. Not because it's rocket science or scaling Mt. Everest, but many people don't have the patience to do it.

I'm fine with others that don't want to deal with all that boring, time-consuming, in-game bullshit and get straight to earning stripes as a competitive battler. But, when those same people start preaching about "legit" and "cheating" -- I really think they should ditch the better-than-thou attitude.

Your Pokemon will be unique if you don't clone it.

+ Even if you clone it, It doesn't alter it's stats, so there is no point in saying that it is unfair. Besides, when I trade for other cloned Pokemon, I rarely use them in battle (I enjoy using Pokemon with my own OT).

 

[sa17dk]

I already explained this. AR/Pokesav created Pokemon have data that is impossible in game. To the naked eye, they appear to be fine, but coding wise, they are impossible for the game to produce. So, if you allow only cheating that is theoretically possible in game, then this would be as banned as 999 stat Mewtwos. One's just more obvious than the other.

By your logic if there was a glitch "in-game" that gave something like Surf 100 PP would that be allowed.

 

[leafgreen386]

I already explained this. AR/Pokesav created Pokemon have data that is impossible in game.

Ignorance at best. Lying at worst.

A properly pokesav'd or AR'd pokemon is perfectly possible to obtain through regular ingame means. Every last detail. Now if you have something like "Garchomp - caught at route 201," obviously that's not possible, but a pokemon can be hacked to have all the correct data a regular pokemon would. Why? A pokemon is just some 80 or so bytes of data. As long as you use a code that matches what a normal pokemon could have in those 80 bytes, there is nothing that can prove otherwise. When nintendo checks your game for cheats, they could probably tell thanks to the save rewind feature, but if you create the pokemon in one game, then trade it to another, there is no way physically possible to tell that the poke was hacked.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

You obviously have no concept of how a RNG works, and I'm not going to bother explaining it to you.

Well then explain that crap to me then since I'm truly interested on how RNG works.

Finally decided to get out of lurker mode so I can drop in my two cents here. Why does everyone having their panties in a bunch over cloning via glitch or other means. Is cloning/using an AR that freaking bad that we shun all those who do it(cloning) or use it(Action Reply) and banish them to eternal damnation? Why are we insisting that cheaters/cloners/whatever you want to call them are bad people and that they shouldn't be allow to have fun like the rest of us? Should we judge people based on what they went through to get their final team make up or not?

 

[Kijin]

Is cloning/using an AR that freaking bad that we shun all who do it or use it and banish them to eternal damnation? Why are we insisting that cheaters/cloners/whatever you want to call them are bad people and that they shouldn't be allow to have fun like the rest of us? Should we judge people based on who they went through things to get their final team make up or not?

Cloning not so much. Using an AR more so.

I don't think that this kind of cheating is really bad at all (but I've said that a hundred time between 3-4 threads). It is cheating, but it's something that is certainly "cheating" for the betterment of the game.

The only thing that really seems to upset me about this issue is that one band seems to be of the mind that one form of cloning is inherently better, more just, and righteous while the other is something that can and often should be shunned. The normal case for this is people exploiting GTS badmouthing people who use AR to clone.

Also, as a complete aside, PBR is TERRIBLE at detecting hacks (or at least Pokesav); my friend tried to hack up a team for himself including a perfect Snorlax. The problem is that he left Pressure selected as its ability from when he was making his Weavile. He was battling people over at the Pokemon Center/Nintendo World and when his Snorlax came out, it let everyone know his pressure was being exerted. This resulted in a loud, "NICE PRESSURE HACKS NOOB" from me.

 

[Pneuma]

Usually Wifi is better for showing off your luck in breeding and dedication to raising pokemon and use Shoddy/Competitor for perfect IVs and theorymon.

Cloning really doesn't do too much to the Wifi competitive scene other than reduce the man-hours needed to make decent teams (though at the base there is still time invested).

Hacking on the other hand makes Wifi too trivial.

 

[AgostonF]

*slaps half the people in this thread*

THIS ISN'T GETTING ANYWHERE

 

[Pneuma]

And CAPS LOCK HELPS.
The thread was bound to go nowhere.
What did you think was going to happen?