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there is the main problem with stall in all metas, its diversity. ban one thing, something else comes up and replaces it. Either way, I don't think the unbanning of the banned LC mons is such a bad thing, but they need to be tested first, as in, we can't just theorymon that all of them will be fine.
I disagree with Lickitung's ban.
Let's take a look at the flip side of the calcs.
252 Atk Lickitung Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 66-78 (22.4 - 26.5%) -- 10.9% chance to 4HKO
4 Atk Lickitung Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Timburr: 61-73 (20.9 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
4 Atk Lickitung Body Slam vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pawniard: 38-45 (16.3 - 19.3%) -- possible 6HKO
4 Atk Lickitung Body Slam vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magby: 123-145 (53 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Keep in mind that Magby is incredibly frail, and not actually very good when Ponyta exists.
Lickitung will be pretty much relegated to passing (admittedly enormous) wishes, Knocking Off random Eviolites, and/or acting as a Cleric, just like in standard LC. Even though it can avoid the OHKO from just about everything, its offensive presence is beyond pathetic, and as such, it will probably be set-up fodder for just about anything with Substitute (because if its STAB Body Slam fails to break Timburr's Substitute the majority of the time, let's not even get started on its Dragon Tail). Lickitung isn't stalling out anything that can actually set up if it's working on its own. I don't think we can blame stall's brokenness on any one culprit at this point; if we're looking to make offense viable, we should probably weaken stall in general. This could be done by banning Eviolite, but I feel as if that would somewhat detract from Little Cup's unique flair (in addition to encouraging the use of Leftovers, which I don't like the idea of for various reasons). It might also carry the possibility of making the metagame TOO offensive, if gen 4 LC was anything to judge by; skimming through the viability thread, LC seems to statistically pack a lot more offensive juggernauts than defensive behemoths. As such, introducing some potent wall-breakers to balance out the walls would probably be a more effective solution.
Keep in mind though, lickitung is not an attacker. Its purpose is to use toxic then spam wish + protect. The part about substitute is correct, but we dont want to just spam substitute on all of our sets just for one pokemon.
Completely unrelated note; I'd like to discuss unbanning some LC Ubers.
Namely:
Swirlix: without berry juice, the unburden set(s) are not as potent since swirlix can't just recover all of its hp at once.
Murkrow: good attacking power and a stallbreaking movepool would help deal with eviolite walls and whatnot
Meditite: not as potent now since everyone is going to be shoving eviolites up everything's asses
Sneasel: serves up some nice and meaty knock offs, but is still walled by basically everything holding eviolite
252+ Atk Meditite High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Lickitung: 198-234 (51.5 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
All of this is in theory though, like xJownage said. since the meta is like a day old or something and we dont have a ladder. (if someone wants to help me code a ladder for this on my server, that would be nice and dandy)
I think you should start this without bans to be honest. Start fresh and see where it goes. LC's premise is to be at level 5. Now that that's gone, the bans should be re-tested.
You forgot Pure Power(Unless I'm missing something)
252+ Atk Pure Power Meditite High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Lickitung: 392-464 (102 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Keep in mind though, lickitung is not an attacker. Its purpose is to use toxic then spam wish + protect. The part about substitute is correct, but we dont want to just spam substitute on all of our sets just for one pokemon.
Completely unrelated note; I'd like to discuss unbanning some LC Ubers.
Namely:
Swirlix: without berry juice, the unburden set(s) are not as potent since swirlix can't just recover all of its hp at once.
Murkrow: good attacking power and a stallbreaking movepool would help deal with eviolite walls and whatnot
Meditite: not as potent now since everyone is going to be shoving eviolites up everything's asses
Sneasel: serves up some nice and meaty knock offs, but is still walled by basically everything holding eviolite
252+ Atk Meditite High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Lickitung: 198-234 (51.5 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
All of this is in theory though, like xJownage said. since the meta is like a day old or something and we dont have a ladder. (if someone wants to help me code a ladder for this on my server, that would be nice and dandy)
Meditite tends to run Huge Power :P
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Meditite High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Lickitung: 402-474 (104.6 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
nvm ninja'd by berry juice ;;;
If Lickitung is purely a Toxistaller, Poison- and Steel-types with any form of recovery will fare just fine as well, and anything with Resttalk will be able to PP stall licki. Also, if it poisons a Timburr, things might not go well. I really don't think a Toxistaller as we know it, no matter how potent, can ever really be close to suspect-worthy given how easy it is to stop.
As for the proposed unbans, I doubt Swirlix's unban will make much of a difference at all when it comes to dealing with stall. The Belly Drum set will probably become fairly mediocre; a good portion of the metagame is now able to avoid the OHKO from even its +6 attacks, and without Berry Juice, it's much easier to prevent from setting up in the first place. The CGCM set might still be viable, but I don't think it'll be anywhere near as noteworthy as it was in standard LC, and it'll definitely be beatable with just a Poison-, Steel- or Fire-type, of which there are plenty.
Murkrow, Sneasel, and Meditite all have their merits as wall-breakers, Murkrow arguably less so than the others. Meditite probably won't mind Eviolite spam much at all because a. that was already happening when it was around, and b. its most popular set pre-ban was an eviolite set anyway.
I think you should start this without bans to be honest. Start fresh and see where it goes. LC's premise is to be at level 5. Now that that's gone, the bans should be re-tested.
I actually really like this idea, but with two exceptions.
Firstly, Scyther because it sort of has a BST of 500. It would probably have enough defenses to even function as a defensive Pokemon on stall teams itself. It was auto-banned from LC initially for a fairly good reason.
We're trying to deal with stall at this point, and although all of the bans in LC, including the one to Tangela, were due to offensive prowess, I feel as if with the different mechanics, Tangela would be more broken as a defensive Pokemon, and would simply add to our problem with stall. Gligar was arguably the only other ban that could be used defensively, but it would be significantly easier to deal with than Tangela because it has a double weakness and doesn't have one of the best defensive abilities in the game in Regenerator.
Y'all don't seem to think lickitung can be used offensively at all...it does have curse, SD(eh), and belly drum(lol) and an offensive move pool out the ass. Curse is what seems the hardest to deal with though.
Also I say unban everything and see where it gos. What harm is there in experimenting? C:
