Gen 1 15/15/15/15 DVs are impossible (in most cases)

#52
Does Gen1 include Pokémon Stadium (only the original, not the sequel) and Green versions? (Trade backs only from Stadium, mechanics and trade backs from Green)?
I ask because it says GEN 1 not RBY
I.e. Obtaining Surf Pikachu from Stadium.

I ask it here, in case Green's DV mechanics may give more light on how to determine the viability and rules on how DVs and other cartridge limits take precedent.
 
#54
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N9ytjiNshJeYyzDpouFOFSAUefIXKsViazVLJExXBgY/edit?usp=sharing

ok, used the spreadsheet hashtag posted and had a look at potential moveset restrictions as they pertain to DV combos. If I didn't leave a note, there's no moveset restriction based on DVs. The results... weren't all that interesting. Because most good moves come at higher levels (or by TM) you're looking at stuff like Scratch and Pound being restricted by DVs. By far the most notable was Arbok having its DVs restricted in order to run Wrap, otherwise nothing.

As always, feel free to check yourself, I may have missed something, but otherwise that's it
 
#55
Surf Pikachu comes from the Game Boy cartridges, Pokémon Stadium simply lets you teach it Surf.
Not that it matters since Yellow Pikachu can have any DV combination, but guessed you could change the note at the end of the spreadsheet :P

You can get Eevee at Level 20 in Stadium

And you could get a Lv 40 Rapidash and a Lv 20 Fearow as events with Pay Day (in Japan though)
 
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#56
As mentioned earlier, what's the situation about illegal IV/Nature combinations in generation 3-4 pokemon, like Hasty Defog Latios. Even during DPP era people were using these sets in Wi-Fi battles but there were no legitimate way to get them in game. Why is that scratched off and this topic isnt?
 
#57
Classic. More RBY weirdness.

And I imagine this would be a pain in the ass for sims to implement, but I don't see any reasonable way around it based on what's been established as standard for rby (all teams must be possible without glitches or tradebacks). Still not sure how this'll change things as I don't remember what encounter rates in various areas are, but even just Gol and Gar losing out is a big deal, Gar will definitely need to compromise its other stats to preserve speed, and idk what'll happen to Gol

edit: This has info on encounter rates and what can be caught. Don't know about DVs, but if you were to work them out, this would be of use

edit2: wait what about fishing, it's not included in that list?

edit3: I checked the best possible encounter rates for the pokemon mentioned in the OP, based on the link I posted above. Best you can get for Haunter/Gastly is 20, but Graveler can be obtained at an encounter rate of 25- the catch is that it's a lvl 55 Graveler, which impacts on its possible moveset (not sure it'd be competitively relevant, but it's still a thing). Also we'd need to check the safari zone, as it has a higher encounter rate than anywhere else in the game (30)
What about Rock Smash? Can't you encounter Graveler, and Geodude that way?
And what about Headbutt on trees?
I assume it's similar to Fishing?

If so, can you still obtain some perfect IV Golem?

Also if you are talking about no tradebacks, does that exclude Stadium from being allowed? I mentioned this because then Psyduck can be obtained with Amnesia (making Amnesia Golduck allowed), as you can get it from Stadium.
 
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#58
What about Rock Smash? Can't you encounter Graveler, and Geodude that way?
And what about Headbutt on trees?
I assume it's similar to Fishing?

If so, can you still obtain some perfect IV Golem?

Also if you are talking about no tradebacks, does that exclude Stadium from being allowed? I mentioned this because then Psyduck can be obtained with Amnesia (making Amnesia Golduck allowed), as you can get it from Stadium.
Stadium is allowed, tradebacks are not, if you are using tradebacks you could probably just breed for max DV pokemon
 
#59
Stadium is allowed, tradebacks are not, if you are using tradebacks you could probably just breed for max DV pokemon
But does using Rock Smash and Headbutt to encounter Pokémon work like Fishing? Thus, can it be a perfect DV? If so, Geodude can be caught this way and therefore Golem can be obtained.
Or is it like a regular wild encounter?
 

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#60
Rock Smash does not exist in RBY and Headbutt has no overworld effect.

The only RBY encounter types are: tall grass/surfing, fishing, legendary, trades/gifts.
 
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#61
Necroing thread, sorry, just wanna know are these discoveries going to be implemented in simulators in the end?

Also:

I just stumbled upon this https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Wood_box

I checked 2 Hitmonchans rewarded in Stad1 in Round1 and Round2 with an editor, I couldn't find any specific difference about why R1 rewarded will have Normal Box, and R2 rewarded will have Gorgeous Box (Silver and Gold Trophies).

The only thing that was different were DVs(IVs), and when transferred to Gen 2 that translated into a different Hidden Power, every other thing was identical between them.

Does this also allude that Stad1 has a specific DV generator for rewarded Pokes, specific for each Round? I can send saves if needed...
 
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#62
Necroing thread, sorry, just wanna know are these discoveries going to be implemented in simulators in the end?

Also:

I just stumbled upon this https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Wood_box

I checked 2 Hitmonchans rewarded in Stad1 in Round1 and Round2 with an editor, I couldn't find any specific difference about why R1 rewarded will have Normal Box, and R2 rewarded will have Gorgeous Box (Silver and Gold Trophies).

The only thing that was different were DVs(IVs), and when transferred to Gen 2 that translated into a different Hidden Power, every other thing was identical between them.

Does this also allude that Stad1 has a specific DV generator for rewarded Pokes, specific for each Round? I can send saves if needed...
Regadring Stad1 + Held Item when transferring to Gen 2, answer is here:
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pokémon_data_structure_in_Generation_I#Catch_rate.2FHeld_item

Regarding Stad1 possibly having different DV generator because of the above, someone more code savvy should check...

PS: Can someone please add these impossible DV findings to Bulbapedia? I would, but I dunno under what category to add it.
 
#63
Yeah, the value normally used for Catch Rate is used to determine the held item when trading to GSC.

The DV generation should be the same as the one for Psyduck, but I'll check if there is some sort of bias for the gifts after you beat GLC (which I hightly doubt).
 
#64
Yeah, the value normally used for Catch Rate is used to determine the held item when trading to GSC.

The DV generation should be the same as the one for Psyduck, but I'll check if there is some sort of bias for the gifts after you beat GLC (which I hightly doubt).
Bulbapedia states Amnesia Psyduck always gets Normal Box fyi.

Can you link me Catch/Capture Rates, I can only find them in percentages on wikis, not the exact values ala 30, 25, etc...
 
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#67
Surf Pikachu comes from the Game Boy cartridges, Pokémon Stadium simply lets you teach it Surf.
Not that it matters since Yellow Pikachu can have any DV combination, but guessed you could change the note at the end of the spreadsheet :P

You can get Eevee at Level 20 in Stadium

And you could get a Lv 40 Rapidash and a Lv 20 Fearow as events with Pay Day (in Japan though)
So, Yellow Pikachu can have any DV combination because it's a fixed event and not a true wild encounter (even though it is presented as one)?
 
#69
Crystal_ said in his YouTube that Yellow slightly differs from Red/Blue but I checked some of my Pokemon I caught in Yellow and they did fit the pattern so it doesn't seem like it's wildly different at the very least. I'd look into it deeper myself but really just wanted to make sure I'm not wasting effort here.

Also, the 15/15/15/7 [15 HP] Gengar seems to be unobtainable by my shoddy calculations in Red/Blue because it requires an encounter rate of over 20, and the top floor of Pokemon Tower where encounter is the highest, is still only 20. This leaves options like 15/15/15/6 [14 HP], 15/15/15/5 [15 HP], and 8/15/15/15 [7 HP]. Not a huge difference but just gives slightly more incentive to sacrifice max speed with the 15/15/14/15 IV spread.

Tauros/Exeggutor/Rhydon on the other hand can get a 15/15/15/9 [15 HP] in the Safari Zone with its higher than normal 30 encounter rate. I've experimented with a Substitute > Blizzard moveset Tauros in the past with a decent amount of success, so perhaps this would be even more of a favorable decision, given that it loses some of its edge on Exeggutor in particular. Lead Exeggutor would almost have to run this spread though, making Blizzard a little more helpful.

But this is all Red/Blue and I still am not sure about what's going on in Yellow.
 
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#71
Thanks, that widget is nice. I also just noticed the OP did specifically mention about Gengar, but also mentioned Golem, while Graveler is actually obtainable in the lowest floor of the (Yellow) Unknown Dungeon where it has an encounter rate of 25. So 15/15/15/7 but not 15/15/15/9 Golem is possible, although not necessarily the best, even for max speed sets (see below).

Also just realized that 9/9/15/15 [15 HP] is a thing, and probably better than 8/15/15/15 [7 HP] in almost OU cases except Chansey where one would even consider 8/15/15/15. Not including Exeggutor since it can run 15/15/15/9 [15 HP].

64.7%-76.1% (Max Attack Tauros's Earthquake against 9/9/15/15 Gengar)
64.8%-76.2% (Max Attack Tauros's Earthquake against 8/15/15/15 Gengar)

69.3%-81.7% (Max Attack Snorlax's Earthquake against 9/9/15/15 Gengar)
68.7%-80.7% (Max Attack Snorlax's Earthquake against 8/15/15/15 Gengar)

The HP almost completely compensates for the defense loss, here, also allowing for a trivially more powerful Explosion, and more importantly, 16 extra HP for taking Special-based hits. By the time you factor in a Starmie/Chansey/Dragonite special attack, the 9/9/15/15 Gengar is taking less damage and having more chance of surviving that plus even a Snorlax Earthquake, over the 8/15/15/15 Gengar, and ultimately that is more of the practical survival situation anyway.

9/9/15/15 also probably has some use on (particularly Fire Blasting) Golem, who may prefer losing 2.8% of its Attack and 2.5% of its Defense over losing 7.7% of its Special, which is what would happen in a 15/15/15/7 spread (8/15/15/15 is obviously inferior to both).
 
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#72
These are some very interesting findings! As for the Java program, I'm supposed to input the percentage as shown here, correct?

Also, in the case of something such as a L3 Pidgey on Route 1 (available in 2 slots, one of which is 20% and the other is 10%), would I enter 30%, or would I have to check both 20% and 10%? It's a trivial example but it's first up on the spreadsheet and I'm sure there are more relevant cases.
 
#73
These are some very interesting findings! As for the Java program, I'm supposed to input the percentage as shown here, correct?

Also, in the case of something such as a L3 Pidgey on Route 1 (available in 2 slots, one of which is 20% and the other is 10%), would I enter 30%, or would I have to check both 20% and 10%? It's a trivial example but it's first up on the spreadsheet and I'm sure there are more relevant cases.
nah, what you want is the chance that an encounter will be generated at all while taking a step in the area where a certain pokemon can be found (note that the rng that decides which actual pokemon it will be is unrelated)

Shown here as density/256 in the second column
http://wiki.pokemonspeedruns.com/index.php?title=Pokémon_Red/Blue/Yellow_Encounter_Slots
 
#74
nah, what you want is the chance that an encounter will be generated at all while taking a step in the area where a certain pokemon can be found (note that the rng that decides which actual pokemon it will be is unrelated)

Shown here as density/256 in the second column
http://wiki.pokemonspeedruns.com/index.php?title=Pokémon_Red/Blue/Yellow_Encounter_Slots
Ah, okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

Has it been confirmed that Pokémon from in-game trades can be 15/15/15/15?