Metagame 1v1 [Power Construct suspect test!]

CCAT #1 - Occa Berry Whimsicott

Whimsicott @ Occa Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 100 Def / 160 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Protect
- Leech Seed
- Moonblast

Mimikyu @ Mimikium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Curse
- Substitute
- Protect

Blacephalon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mind Blown
- Shadow Ball
- Psychic
- Hyper Beam

We decided to build around Occa Berry Whimsicott, which is a good Charizard lure. It was decided to pair it with Choice Band Garchomp, but we quickly realized that they simply weren't a good core. After some speculation, we came up with Mimikium Cursekyu, who beats most of Whimsicott's counters. While there was some controversy about running Adamant or Jolly, Adamant was eventually deemed the superior nature considering that it OHKOs Tapu Koko and stands a better chance vs extra-bulky Kyurem-B. After constructing a list of Pokemon that the two lose to (Mega Metagross, Mega Venusaur, Mega Pinsir, Scarf Genesect, Ferrothorn, Kartana), Scarf Blacephalon came to mind almost instantly. In the last slot, there was some discussion about running HP Ice or Hyper Beam, and Hyper Beam was agreed upon by the majority. Keep in mind that both Hyper Beam and HP Ice are filler moves; neither are necessary to cover threats that the team would otherwise lose to, so feel free to swap them as you wish.

Thanks to all of our participants, but in particular, shoutouts to DEG , partys over , motogp , pqs and I!
Logs: https://pastebin.com/MSvpyuLh
 
Heya! I've had an idea of making some Ubers Pokémon sets in 1v1, and putting them against the rest of the meta.
Darkrai @ Choice Specs
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 84 Def / 252 SpA / 172 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Sludge Bomb
- Roar of Time

Calcs


252+ SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black: 484-570 (106.6 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO Win (unless scarf but why)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 352-416 (106.3 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO Win (If they mega)

252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 84 Def Darkrai: 255-300 (90.7 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO 66% Chance to Win
252+ SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 255-300 (85.8 - 101%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 104 SpD Metagross-Mega: 372-438 (102.4 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO Win

252+ SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Sludge Bomb vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 282-332 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO Win

252+ SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 294-348 (85.4 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO Loss 88% of the time

252+ SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Filter Aggron-Mega: 399-471 (115.9 - 136.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO Win

252+ SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 196-232 (65.9 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Loss
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Blast Burn vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai in Sun: 466-550 (165.8 - 195.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 110-130 (28.4 - 33.6%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO 70% chance to lose
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 84 Def Darkrai: 328-387 (116.7 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 84 Def Darkrai: 438-516 (155.8 - 183.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO Loss

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai: 764-900 (271.8 - 320.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO Loss


252+ SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 231-272 (75.9 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Loss
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 84 Def Darkrai: 554-654 (197.1 - 232.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Mimikyu Let's Snuggle Forever vs. 0 HP / 84 Def Darkrai: 480-566 (170.8 - 201.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO Loss

252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 84 Def Darkrai: 333-393 (118.5 - 139.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO Loss

252+ SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 312-368 (96.5 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO Win 81% of the time

252+ SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 267-315 (69.8 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Loss 70% of the time
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 84 Def Darkrai: 348-411 (123.8 - 146.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 241-285 (70 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Loss 70% of the time
252+ SpA Magnezone Gigavolt Havoc (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai: 373-439 (132.7 - 156.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai: 368-434 (130.9 - 154.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO Loss to scarf, win to Specs
252+ SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z: 560-660 (180 - 212.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 408-482 (83.7 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Win 73% of the time
152 Atk Snorlax Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 84 Def Darkrai: 253-298 (90 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO


252+ SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 534-630 (161.3 - 190.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO Win

252+ SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 216 HP / 216 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 159-187 (44.7 - 52.6%) -- 24.6% chance to 2HKO Loss

252+ SpA Choice Specs Darkrai Roar of Time vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 572-674 (89.9 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO ~Half chance to win
244+ Atk Zygarde-Complete Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 84 Def Darkrai: 133-157 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tallying up the w/l rate for Darkrai against S to A- rank PkMn, it's 10 wins to 12 losses. I don't think this should be unbanned but it would be fair to at least have a suspect test for Darkrai.

~pqs
 
Last edited:
Okay, let's do this.....

POTENTIAL THINGS TO GET BANNED IN USUM 1v1 :
1) Sleep
2) Power Construct + Rest


And things to be unbanned:

POTENTIAL THINGS TO GET UNBANNED IN USUM 1v1:

1) Species Clause
2) Shaymin-Sky

I'll go through the points one by one, adding why i want them banned/unbanned.

POTENTIAL THINGS TO GET BANNED IN USUM 1v1 :

1) Sleep-Inducing:




Sleep-inducing has always been an essentially much used, much talked-about topic, and it is also been considered for a possible ban. Here's why I support a ban on sleep-inducing moves.

The sleep inducing strat has a problem both with the strategy and with the users of the strategy. While the strategy in itself is in no way flawed, it reduces the 1v1 metagame from being competitive to merely a metagame relying on luck to win. Also, it forces a choke in the team-building process wherein dedicated counters, like the moves Substitute or Taunt, or abilities like Insomnia and Magic Bounce which keeps the Pokemon from either falling asleep or Bouncing back the sleep-inducing move. Even then, Jumpluff has access to the ability Infiltrator, and Snorlax can use Z-Yawn regardless of whether it is taunted or not. Here's where the Pokemon using sleep-inducing strats come into play, where the sleep-inducing Pokemon themselves are of two categories, one being Pokemon being bulky enough to tank a hit and in turn induce sleep on foes, like Snorlax, Mega Swampert and Mega Venusaur, and the other being Pokemon which can outspeed the needed targets, induce sleep and wear them down or render them immobile to attack like Jumpluff and Smeargle. Also, while anti-sleep ban people say that there are enough countermeasures to counter sleep, I'd like to point out (again) that every other banned strategy in 1v1 had countermeasures and yet were banned because they were fundamentally crippling and bringing down the game for competitive levels.

Keeping all this in mind, I'd like to call a BAN ON SLEEP-INDUCING MOVES.

2) Power Construct + Rest:



Boi, this is a bit more interesting than the first one Ever since Zygarde entered the 1v1 metagame along with USUM Pokemon, it has indubitably( MaceMaster :D) left its impact, having the ability to take on Pokemon very much used in the game like Mega Gyarados, Mega Charizard X and Y, Tapu Koko, Mega Venusaur, Landorus-T amongst many others. It has the innate ability to tank physical attackers to a great level, set up with Dragon Dance/ Coil, and KO them back with Substitute, Glare, and Rest to aid the behemoth in setting up. Once, it struck to me to see what amount of the meta this monster exactly takes on with its usual set(Rest/Sub/Coil/ThousandArrows), and the results were frightening:


According to October 1630 usage stats,
  • of the top 010 most used Pokemon, it defeats 07.
  • of the top 020 most used Pokemon, it defeats 12.
  • of the top 050 most used Pokemon, it defeats 30.
  • of the top 100 most used Pokemon, it defeats 62.
  • of the top 150 most used Pokemon, it defeats 89.

If you're really interested, I've made a list of Pokemon from the top 150 most used Pokemon which dies to PConstruct+Rest combination
  1. Mega Gyarados(Without Taunt, which only 7.895% use)
  2. Mega Charizard X
  3. Mega Metagross
  4. Tapu Koko
  5. Mega Charizard Y
  6. Mega Venusaur
  7. Landorus-Therian
  8. Donphan
  9. Mega Blaziken
  10. Mega Lopunny
  11. Heatran
  12. Aegislash
  13. Magearna
  14. Magnezone
  15. Mega Sableye(non Taunt variants)
  16. Victini
  17. Golem
  18. Mega Tyranitar
  19. Snorlax
  20. Mega Swampert
  21. Celesteela
  22. Mega Diancie
  23. Ferrothorn
  24. Mega Heracross
  25. Chansey
  26. Jirachi
  27. Crustle
  28. Tapu Bulu
  29. Mega Pinsir
  30. Kartana
  31. Mega Gengar
  32. Porygon2
  33. Mega Aggron
  34. Alolan Marowak
  35. Mega Scizor
  36. Haxorus
  37. Excadrill
  38. Volcanion
  39. Salazzle
  40. Jumpluff
  41. Mega Lucario
  42. Blissey
  43. Buzzwole
  44. Rotom-Wash
  45. Mega Gallade
  46. Nihilego
  47. Terrakion
  48. Aron
  49. Hawlucha
  50. Skarmory
  51. Aggron
  52. Umbreon
  53. Conkeldurr
  54. Mega Camerupt
  55. Archeops
  56. Durant
  57. Carracosta
  58. Chandelure
  59. Blaziken
  60. Gengar
  61. Bisharp
  62. Hitmonlee
  63. Entei
  64. Magnemite
  65. Mega Ampharos
  66. Arcanine
  67. Xurkitree
  68. Krookodile
  69. Darmanitan
  70. Rotom-Heat
  71. Klefki
  72. Talonflame
  73. Swampert
  74. Hippowdon
  75. Alolan Raichu
  76. Barbaracle
  77. Toxapex
  78. Rampardos
  79. Gliscor
  80. Machamp
  81. Magneton
  82. Tyranitar
  83. Azumarill
  84. Ambipom
  85. Shuckle
  86. Diggersby
  87. Granbull
  88. Zapdos
  89. Wobbuffet

This is the level of potency of the PConstruct+ Rest combo we are seeing about. Of course, there are some sets from the listed Pokemon which can counter Zygarde, but they are very niche and are not in much use as well.

Considering all the facts I presented,and the fact that no other set(s) manage to beat this proportion of the meta, I call for a BAN ON POWER CONSTRUCT + REST COMBO.



Now that I've given my opinion on all I wanted to be banned, I'll give my opinions on something I wanted to get unbanned..
POTENTIAL THINGS TO GET
UNBANNED IN USUM 1v1

1) SPECIES CLAUSE:

??<-
->??


???
???

The species clause was introduced to make sure that there are no overusage of OP mons, and Pokemon with enough coverage to take out any opponent the opponent may have. But like, you could have two Charizard, one being X and other being Y, one taking care of some opponents and others taking care or some others. Here, species clause also brings with it the possibility of having a common counter for the all these, like Archeops. So, keeping in mind the possibility of having a common counter if bringing the same Pokemon, i call for a UNBAN ON SPECIES CLAUSE.

2) Shaymin-Sky:



Since its release in Generation 4, Shaymin-Sky has always been a decent Pokemon, with its signature move Seed Flare with a 120 Base Power along with a 80 percent chance of reducing the Special Defence by 2 stages and its Air Slash having a 60% chance of flinching, because of its Serene Grace ability. But apart from these weapons, which gives Shaymin-Sky tremendous stall-breaking capabilities, it gets nothing, and its typing in Grass/Flying is also very bad in 1v1 with common offensive Pokemon in 1v1 being Tapu Koko, Kyurem-B, Mega Charizard, Tapu Lele, Mega Metagross and Sturdy Pokemon, which can easily tank some hits from Shaymin-Sky and retaliate with their own. It is also a bit frail for its typing, thus not being able to tank its weakness.

Calculations:

252 SpA Shaymin-Sky Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 326-386 (89.5 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-Sky Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black: 272-320 (69.5 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-Sky Ancient Power vs. 248 HP / 80 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 308-364 (85.7 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Shaymin-Sky Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 235-277 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-Sky Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 258-304 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-Sky Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 282-334 (78.9 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These calcs show proof that the coverage moves it gets are not enough to KO relevant threats.

To conclude, it is a Pokemon a little better than a glass cannon, which deserves to be unbanned, and so I support for a UNBAN ON SHAYMIN-SKY.
 
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My stands:
Sleep: Do not ban or suspect
Zygarde father: Suspect
Shaymin-s: Keep Banned
Species Clause: UNBAN for sure
Darkrai: Suspect

other stuff : i do know it cant happen but possibly retesting deo-d and im not sure about gyara and kyurem(more kyurem) if they are too much for this metagame but recently i am more pushing for them to stay.

ik no one cares especially bc i am too lazy to wright my reasonings.I am posting just to document my opinion at this time as it can change.Also ill add more stuff later on to the list.
 
Last edited:
Okay, let's do this.....

POTENTIAL THINGS TO GET BANNED IN USUM 1v1 :
1) Sleep
2) Power Construct + Rest


And things to be unbanned:

POTENTIAL THINGS TO GET UNBANNED IN USUM 1v1:

1) Species Clause
2) Shaymin-Sky

I'll go through the points one by one, adding why i want them banned/unbanned.

POTENTIAL THINGS TO GET BANNED IN USUM 1v1 :

1) Sleep-Inducing:




Sleep-inducing has always been an essentially much used, much talked-about topic, and it is also been considered for a possible ban. Here's why I support a ban on sleep-inducing moves.

The sleep inducing strat has a problem both with the strategy and with the users of the strategy. While the strategy in itself is in no way flawed, it reduces the 1v1 metagame from being competitive to merely a metagame relying on luck to win. Also, it forces a choke in the team-building process wherein dedicated counters, like the moves Substitute or Taunt, or abilities like Insomnia and Magic Bounce which keeps the Pokemon from either falling asleep or Bouncing back the sleep-inducing move. Even then, Jumpluff has access to the ability Infiltrator, and Snorlax can use Z-Yawn regardless of whether it is taunted or not. Here's where the Pokemon using sleep-inducing strats come into play, where the sleep-inducing Pokemon themselves are of two categories, one being Pokemon being bulky enough to tank a hit and in turn induce sleep on foes, like Snorlax, Mega Swampert and Mega Venusaur, and the other being Pokemon which can outspeed the needed targets, induce sleep and wear them down or render them immobile to attack like Jumpluff and Smeargle. Also, while anti-sleep ban people say that there are enough countermeasures to counter sleep, I'd like to point out (again) that every other banned strategy in 1v1 had countermeasures and yet were banned because they were fundamentally crippling and bringing down the game for competitive levels.

Keeping all this in mind, I'd like to call a BAN ON SLEEP-INDUCING MOVES.

2) Power Construct + Rest:



Boi, this is a bit more interesting than the first one Ever since Zygarde entered the 1v1 metagame along with USUM Pokemon, it has indubitably( MaceMaster :D) left its impact, having the ability to take on Pokemon very much used in the game like Mega Gyarados, Mega Charizard X and Y, Tapu Koko, Mega Venusaur, Landorus-T amongst many others. It has the innate ability to tank physical attackers to a great level, set up with Dragon Dance/ Coil, and KO them back with Substitute, Glare, and Rest to aid the behemoth in setting up. Once, it struck to me to see what amount of the meta this monster exactly takes on with its usual set(Rest/Sub/Coil/ThousandArrows), and the results were frightening:


According to October 1630 usage stats,
  • of the top 010 most used Pokemon, it defeats 07.
  • of the top 020 most used Pokemon, it defeats 12.
  • of the top 050 most used Pokemon, it defeats 30.
  • of the top 100 most used Pokemon, it defeats 62.
  • of the top 150 most used Pokemon, it defeats 89.

If you're really interested, I've made a list of Pokemon from the top 150 most used Pokemon which dies to PConstruct+Rest combination
  1. Mega Gyarados(Without Taunt, which only 7.895% use)
  2. Mega Charizard X
  3. Mega Metagross
  4. Tapu Koko
  5. Mega Charizard Y
  6. Mega Venusaur
  7. Landorus-Therian
  8. Donphan
  9. Mega Blaziken
  10. Mega Lopunny
  11. Heatran
  12. Aegislash
  13. Magearna
  14. Magnezone
  15. Mega Sableye(non Taunt variants)
  16. Victini
  17. Golem
  18. Mega Tyranitar
  19. Snorlax
  20. Mega Swampert
  21. Celesteela
  22. Mega Diancie
  23. Ferrothorn
  24. Mega Heracross
  25. Chansey
  26. Jirachi
  27. Crustle
  28. Tapu Bulu
  29. Mega Pinsir
  30. Kartana
  31. Mega Gengar
  32. Porygon2
  33. Mega Aggron
  34. Alolan Marowak
  35. Mega Scizor
  36. Haxorus
  37. Excadrill
  38. Volcanion
  39. Salazzle
  40. Jumpluff
  41. Mega Lucario
  42. Blissey
  43. Buzzwole
  44. Rotom-Wash
  45. Mega Gallade
  46. Nihilego
  47. Terrakion
  48. Aron
  49. Hawlucha
  50. Skarmory
  51. Aggron
  52. Umbreon
  53. Conkeldurr
  54. Mega Camerupt
  55. Archeops
  56. Durant
  57. Carracosta
  58. Chandelure
  59. Blaziken
  60. Gengar
  61. Bisharp
  62. Hitmonlee
  63. Entei
  64. Magnemite
  65. Mega Ampharos
  66. Arcanine
  67. Xurkitree
  68. Krookodile
  69. Darmanitan
  70. Rotom-Heat
  71. Klefki
  72. Talonflame
  73. Swampert
  74. Hippowdon
  75. Alolan Raichu
  76. Barbaracle
  77. Toxapex
  78. Rampardos
  79. Gliscor
  80. Machamp
  81. Magneton
  82. Tyranitar
  83. Azumarill
  84. Ambipom
  85. Shuckle
  86. Diggersby
  87. Granbull
  88. Zapdos
  89. Wobbuffet

This is the level of potency of the PConstruct+ Rest combo we are seeing about. Of course, there are some sets from the listed Pokemon which can counter Zygarde, but they are very niche and are not in much use as well.

Considering all the facts I presented,and the fact that no other set(s) manage to beat this proportion of the meta, I call for a BAN ON POWER CONSTRUCT + REST COMBO.



Now that I've given my opinion on all I wanted to be banned, I'll give my opinions on something I wanted to get unbanned..
POTENTIAL THINGS TO GET
UNBANNED IN USUM 1v1

1) SPECIES CLAUSE:

??<-
->??


???
???

The species clause was introduced to make sure that there are no overusage of OP mons, and Pokemon with enough coverage to take out any opponent the opponent may have. But like, you could have two Charizard, one being X and other being Y, one taking care of some opponents and others taking care or some others. Here, species clause also brings with it the possibility of having a common counter for the all these, like Archeops. So, keeping in mind the possibility of having a common counter if bringing the same Pokemon, i call for a UNBAN ON SPECIES CLAUSE.

2) Shaymin-Sky:



Since its release in Generation 4, Shaymin-Sky has always been a decent Pokemon, with its signature move Seed Flare with a 120 Base Power along with a 80 percent chance of reducing the Special Defence by 2 stages and its Air Slash having a 60% chance of flinching, because of its Serene Grace ability. But apart from these weapons, which gives Shaymin-Sky tremendous stall-breaking capabilities, it gets nothing, and its typing in Grass/Flying is also very bad in 1v1 with common offensive Pokemon in 1v1 being Tapu Koko, Kyurem-B, Mega Charizard, Tapu Lele, Mega Metagross and Sturdy Pokemon, which can easily tank some hits from Shaymin-Sky and retaliate with their own. It is also a bit frail for its typing, thus not being able to tank its weakness.

Calculations:

252 SpA Shaymin-Sky Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 326-386 (89.5 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-Sky Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black: 272-320 (69.5 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-Sky Ancient Power vs. 248 HP / 80 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 308-364 (85.7 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Shaymin-Sky Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 235-277 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-Sky Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 258-304 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-Sky Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 282-334 (78.9 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These calcs show proof that the coverage moves it gets are not enough to KO relevant threats.

To conclude, it is a Pokemon a little better than a glass cannon, which deserves to be unbanned, and so I support for a UNBAN ON SHAYMIN-SKY.
Nice post overall, I just wanna know why the Shaymin-Sky against Primarina isn't specs, seeing that you only put non-specs for Tapu Koko to outspeed it. (sorry for he one liner)
 
Okay, let's do this.....

POTENTIAL THINGS TO GET BANNED IN USUM 1v1 :
1) Sleep
2) Power Construct + Rest


And things to be unbanned:

POTENTIAL THINGS TO GET UNBANNED IN USUM 1v1:

1) Species Clause
2) Shaymin-Sky

I'll go through the points one by one, adding why i want them banned/unbanned.

POTENTIAL THINGS TO GET BANNED IN USUM 1v1 :

1) Sleep-Inducing:




Sleep-inducing has always been an essentially much used, much talked-about topic, and it is also been considered for a possible ban. Here's why I support a ban on sleep-inducing moves.

The sleep inducing strat has a problem both with the strategy and with the users of the strategy. While the strategy in itself is in no way flawed, it reduces the 1v1 metagame from being competitive to merely a metagame relying on luck to win. Also, it forces a choke in the team-building process wherein dedicated counters, like the moves Substitute or Taunt, or abilities like Insomnia and Magic Bounce which keeps the Pokemon from either falling asleep or Bouncing back the sleep-inducing move. Even then, Jumpluff has access to the ability Infiltrator, and Snorlax can use Z-Yawn regardless of whether it is taunted or not. Here's where the Pokemon using sleep-inducing strats come into play, where the sleep-inducing Pokemon themselves are of two categories, one being Pokemon being bulky enough to tank a hit and in turn induce sleep on foes, like Snorlax, Mega Swampert and Mega Venusaur, and the other being Pokemon which can outspeed the needed targets, induce sleep and wear them down or render them immobile to attack like Jumpluff and Smeargle. Also, while anti-sleep ban people say that there are enough countermeasures to counter sleep, I'd like to point out (again) that every other banned strategy in 1v1 had countermeasures and yet were banned because they were fundamentally crippling and bringing down the game for competitive levels.

Keeping all this in mind, I'd like to call a BAN ON SLEEP-INDUCING MOVES.

2) Power Construct + Rest:



Boi, this is a bit more interesting than the first one Ever since Zygarde entered the 1v1 metagame along with USUM Pokemon, it has indubitably( MaceMaster :D) left its impact, having the ability to take on Pokemon very much used in the game like Mega Gyarados, Mega Charizard X and Y, Tapu Koko, Mega Venusaur, Landorus-T amongst many others. It has the innate ability to tank physical attackers to a great level, set up with Dragon Dance/ Coil, and KO them back with Substitute, Glare, and Rest to aid the behemoth in setting up. Once, it struck to me to see what amount of the meta this monster exactly takes on with its usual set(Rest/Sub/Coil/ThousandArrows), and the results were frightening:


According to October 1630 usage stats,
  • of the top 010 most used Pokemon, it defeats 07.
  • of the top 020 most used Pokemon, it defeats 12.
  • of the top 050 most used Pokemon, it defeats 30.
  • of the top 100 most used Pokemon, it defeats 62.
  • of the top 150 most used Pokemon, it defeats 89.

If you're really interested, I've made a list of Pokemon from the top 150 most used Pokemon which dies to PConstruct+Rest combination
  1. Mega Gyarados(Without Taunt, which only 7.895% use)
  2. Mega Charizard X
  3. Mega Metagross
  4. Tapu Koko
  5. Mega Charizard Y
  6. Mega Venusaur
  7. Landorus-Therian
  8. Donphan
  9. Mega Blaziken
  10. Mega Lopunny
  11. Heatran
  12. Aegislash
  13. Magearna
  14. Magnezone
  15. Mega Sableye(non Taunt variants)
  16. Victini
  17. Golem
  18. Mega Tyranitar
  19. Snorlax
  20. Mega Swampert
  21. Celesteela
  22. Mega Diancie
  23. Ferrothorn
  24. Mega Heracross
  25. Chansey
  26. Jirachi
  27. Crustle
  28. Tapu Bulu
  29. Mega Pinsir
  30. Kartana
  31. Mega Gengar
  32. Porygon2
  33. Mega Aggron
  34. Alolan Marowak
  35. Mega Scizor
  36. Haxorus
  37. Excadrill
  38. Volcanion
  39. Salazzle
  40. Jumpluff
  41. Mega Lucario
  42. Blissey
  43. Buzzwole
  44. Rotom-Wash
  45. Mega Gallade
  46. Nihilego
  47. Terrakion
  48. Aron
  49. Hawlucha
  50. Skarmory
  51. Aggron
  52. Umbreon
  53. Conkeldurr
  54. Mega Camerupt
  55. Archeops
  56. Durant
  57. Carracosta
  58. Chandelure
  59. Blaziken
  60. Gengar
  61. Bisharp
  62. Hitmonlee
  63. Entei
  64. Magnemite
  65. Mega Ampharos
  66. Arcanine
  67. Xurkitree
  68. Krookodile
  69. Darmanitan
  70. Rotom-Heat
  71. Klefki
  72. Talonflame
  73. Swampert
  74. Hippowdon
  75. Alolan Raichu
  76. Barbaracle
  77. Toxapex
  78. Rampardos
  79. Gliscor
  80. Machamp
  81. Magneton
  82. Tyranitar
  83. Azumarill
  84. Ambipom
  85. Shuckle
  86. Diggersby
  87. Granbull
  88. Zapdos
  89. Wobbuffet

This is the level of potency of the PConstruct+ Rest combo we are seeing about. Of course, there are some sets from the listed Pokemon which can counter Zygarde, but they are very niche and are not in much use as well.

Considering all the facts I presented,and the fact that no other set(s) manage to beat this proportion of the meta, I call for a BAN ON POWER CONSTRUCT + REST COMBO.



Now that I've given my opinion on all I wanted to be banned, I'll give my opinions on something I wanted to get unbanned..
POTENTIAL THINGS TO GET
UNBANNED IN USUM 1v1

1) SPECIES CLAUSE:

??<-
->??


???
???

The species clause was introduced to make sure that there are no overusage of OP mons, and Pokemon with enough coverage to take out any opponent the opponent may have. But like, you could have two Charizard, one being X and other being Y, one taking care of some opponents and others taking care or some others. Here, species clause also brings with it the possibility of having a common counter for the all these, like Archeops. So, keeping in mind the possibility of having a common counter if bringing the same Pokemon, i call for a UNBAN ON SPECIES CLAUSE.

2) Shaymin-Sky:



Since its release in Generation 4, Shaymin-Sky has always been a decent Pokemon, with its signature move Seed Flare with a 120 Base Power along with a 80 percent chance of reducing the Special Defence by 2 stages and its Air Slash having a 60% chance of flinching, because of its Serene Grace ability. But apart from these weapons, which gives Shaymin-Sky tremendous stall-breaking capabilities, it gets nothing, and its typing in Grass/Flying is also very bad in 1v1 with common offensive Pokemon in 1v1 being Tapu Koko, Kyurem-B, Mega Charizard, Tapu Lele, Mega Metagross and Sturdy Pokemon, which can easily tank some hits from Shaymin-Sky and retaliate with their own. It is also a bit frail for its typing, thus not being able to tank its weakness.

Calculations:

252 SpA Shaymin-Sky Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 326-386 (89.5 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-Sky Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black: 272-320 (69.5 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-Sky Ancient Power vs. 248 HP / 80 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 308-364 (85.7 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Shaymin-Sky Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 235-277 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-Sky Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 258-304 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-Sky Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 282-334 (78.9 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These calcs show proof that the coverage moves it gets are not enough to KO relevant threats.

To conclude, it is a Pokemon a little better than a glass cannon, which deserves to be unbanned, and so I support for a UNBAN ON SHAYMIN-SKY.
I've said this before, but I don't think that sleep is inherently broken. If something is broken, it's the individual users of sleep (and I don' think any of them are).

Power Construct+Rest simply isn't broken. It does indubitably beat a lot of mons, but compare that to Kyurem-B's Choice Band or special Scarf sets, and it just doesn't seem like a lot anymore. Additionally, the very nature of Power Construct+Rest leaves it as a bit of a one-trick pony.

Special Clause absolutely deserves an uban. Nothing more to say.

It was as if you included and excluded Specs on your Shaymin calcs for whatever makes it look better. "It's so weak, it can't even OHKO Primarina" (It does with Specs) "Oh, but even with Specs it can't KO Metagross" etc... Additionally, 248/80 isn't even a Charizard Y spread; no one runs any SpD. When talking about Garchomp, you also excluded the superior coverage option: HP Ice. Finally, and most importantly by far, you straight-up excluded Air Slash from the narrative. You mentioned it once, and in a way that makes you quickly glance over it. Z moves and set speculation also wasn't discussed. What I've said has been a bit ad hominem, but Serene Grace Air Slash with everything else it has going for it is just not okay.

I've said this before many times, but just to be clear, I don't think Darkrai is broken and I do think Kyurem-B is. Also, jan Birachi.
 
My stance on some of the standing topics:

Sleep: Trying to target sleep as noncompetitive while not also discussing serene grace or paralysis is a case of double standards. As long as serene grace and paralysis are legal, no ban or suspect for sleep.

Zygarde-Complete: 1v1 is no stranger to boosting sweepers, but what makes zygarde particularly dubious is its ability to invalidate defensive mons in a way that no other setup sweeper can through use of rest PP stall. Sure other sweepers could use rest as well, but almost no other mons can utilise rest so effortlessly in the manner that Zygarde-C can since zygarde doesn't need to worry about a moveslot to account for ground immunities. All of Zygarde-Complete's attributes form a very dangerous 1v1 presence that should be suspect tested.

Shaymin-Sky: Really not 100% sure how I feel about this one. One one hand, it's relatively frail and struggles against certain common threats on paper. However, I can also see it obtaining a lot of wins against would-be counters by chipping away with air slash and then nuking with a powerful move (skymin would likely use supersonic skystrike and tectonic rage quite effectively). What separates Skymin from Jirachi and Togekiss is that it does not need to rely on a choice scarf to outpace a huge amount of the metagame and I really think that's all that's needed to push it over the edge. Sure Togekiss and Jirachi can outspeed through use of t-wave, but that wastes a whole turn where Skymin has already smacked you rather hard and sliced your special defense in half or already started flinch haxing you within range of a powerful move. As much as I would love to see Shaymin-Sky excel in 1v1, especially since it's one of my most favourite mons period, I just don't see it being edition to 1v1; not because of the hax, but for the speed that it gets to use those hax effectively without a scarf or t-wave. So IMO, keep it banned.

Species Clause: In my opinion, this clause is unnecessary. If someone brings any pokemon to battle, you can never really be sure of what the set is until you actually face it. Even if they bring 3 of the same pokemon this fact doesn't change. Only carrying one of a certain pokemon on a team in no way stops you from changing the sets or EV spread between battles (I have my own teams that are sometimes the same chosen pokemon, but just have different sets or spreads to account for certain threats more effectively). It seems that the species clause is meant to stop potential guessing games, but I'd say that's exactly what we already have to do with most Pokemon that aren't completely one-dimensional. Get rid of the species clause.
 
Okay, let's do this.....

POTENTIAL THINGS TO GET BANNED IN USUM 1v1 :
1) Sleep
2) Power Construct + Rest


And things to be unbanned:

POTENTIAL THINGS TO GET UNBANNED IN USUM 1v1:

1) Species Clause
2) Shaymin-Sky

I'll go through the points one by one, adding why i want them banned/unbanned.

POTENTIAL THINGS TO GET BANNED IN USUM 1v1 :

1) Sleep-Inducing:




Sleep-inducing has always been an essentially much used, much talked-about topic, and it is also been considered for a possible ban. Here's why I support a ban on sleep-inducing moves.

The sleep inducing strat has a problem both with the strategy and with the users of the strategy. While the strategy in itself is in no way flawed, it reduces the 1v1 metagame from being competitive to merely a metagame relying on luck to win. Also, it forces a choke in the team-building process wherein dedicated counters, like the moves Substitute or Taunt, or abilities like Insomnia and Magic Bounce which keeps the Pokemon from either falling asleep or Bouncing back the sleep-inducing move. Even then, Jumpluff has access to the ability Infiltrator, and Snorlax can use Z-Yawn regardless of whether it is taunted or not. Here's where the Pokemon using sleep-inducing strats come into play, where the sleep-inducing Pokemon themselves are of two categories, one being Pokemon being bulky enough to tank a hit and in turn induce sleep on foes, like Snorlax, Mega Swampert and Mega Venusaur, and the other being Pokemon which can outspeed the needed targets, induce sleep and wear them down or render them immobile to attack like Jumpluff and Smeargle. Also, while anti-sleep ban people say that there are enough countermeasures to counter sleep, I'd like to point out (again) that every other banned strategy in 1v1 had countermeasures and yet were banned because they were fundamentally crippling and bringing down the game for competitive levels.

Keeping all this in mind, I'd like to call a BAN ON SLEEP-INDUCING MOVES.

2) Power Construct + Rest:



Boi, this is a bit more interesting than the first one Ever since Zygarde entered the 1v1 metagame along with USUM Pokemon, it has indubitably( MaceMaster :D) left its impact, having the ability to take on Pokemon very much used in the game like Mega Gyarados, Mega Charizard X and Y, Tapu Koko, Mega Venusaur, Landorus-T amongst many others. It has the innate ability to tank physical attackers to a great level, set up with Dragon Dance/ Coil, and KO them back with Substitute, Glare, and Rest to aid the behemoth in setting up. Once, it struck to me to see what amount of the meta this monster exactly takes on with its usual set(Rest/Sub/Coil/ThousandArrows), and the results were frightening:


According to October 1630 usage stats,
  • of the top 010 most used Pokemon, it defeats 07.
  • of the top 020 most used Pokemon, it defeats 12.
  • of the top 050 most used Pokemon, it defeats 30.
  • of the top 100 most used Pokemon, it defeats 62.
  • of the top 150 most used Pokemon, it defeats 89.

If you're really interested, I've made a list of Pokemon from the top 150 most used Pokemon which dies to PConstruct+Rest combination
  1. Mega Gyarados(Without Taunt, which only 7.895% use)
  2. Mega Charizard X
  3. Mega Metagross
  4. Tapu Koko
  5. Mega Charizard Y
  6. Mega Venusaur
  7. Landorus-Therian
  8. Donphan
  9. Mega Blaziken
  10. Mega Lopunny
  11. Heatran
  12. Aegislash
  13. Magearna
  14. Magnezone
  15. Mega Sableye(non Taunt variants)
  16. Victini
  17. Golem
  18. Mega Tyranitar
  19. Snorlax
  20. Mega Swampert
  21. Celesteela
  22. Mega Diancie
  23. Ferrothorn
  24. Mega Heracross
  25. Chansey
  26. Jirachi
  27. Crustle
  28. Tapu Bulu
  29. Mega Pinsir
  30. Kartana
  31. Mega Gengar
  32. Porygon2
  33. Mega Aggron
  34. Alolan Marowak
  35. Mega Scizor
  36. Haxorus
  37. Excadrill
  38. Volcanion
  39. Salazzle
  40. Jumpluff
  41. Mega Lucario
  42. Blissey
  43. Buzzwole
  44. Rotom-Wash
  45. Mega Gallade
  46. Nihilego
  47. Terrakion
  48. Aron
  49. Hawlucha
  50. Skarmory
  51. Aggron
  52. Umbreon
  53. Conkeldurr
  54. Mega Camerupt
  55. Archeops
  56. Durant
  57. Carracosta
  58. Chandelure
  59. Blaziken
  60. Gengar
  61. Bisharp
  62. Hitmonlee
  63. Entei
  64. Magnemite
  65. Mega Ampharos
  66. Arcanine
  67. Xurkitree
  68. Krookodile
  69. Darmanitan
  70. Rotom-Heat
  71. Klefki
  72. Talonflame
  73. Swampert
  74. Hippowdon
  75. Alolan Raichu
  76. Barbaracle
  77. Toxapex
  78. Rampardos
  79. Gliscor
  80. Machamp
  81. Magneton
  82. Tyranitar
  83. Azumarill
  84. Ambipom
  85. Shuckle
  86. Diggersby
  87. Granbull
  88. Zapdos
  89. Wobbuffet

This is the level of potency of the PConstruct+ Rest combo we are seeing about. Of course, there are some sets from the listed Pokemon which can counter Zygarde, but they are very niche and are not in much use as well.

Considering all the facts I presented,and the fact that no other set(s) manage to beat this proportion of the meta, I call for a BAN ON POWER CONSTRUCT + REST COMBO.



Now that I've given my opinion on all I wanted to be banned, I'll give my opinions on something I wanted to get unbanned..
POTENTIAL THINGS TO GET
UNBANNED IN USUM 1v1

1) SPECIES CLAUSE:

??<-
->??


???
???

The species clause was introduced to make sure that there are no overusage of OP mons, and Pokemon with enough coverage to take out any opponent the opponent may have. But like, you could have two Charizard, one being X and other being Y, one taking care of some opponents and others taking care or some others. Here, species clause also brings with it the possibility of having a common counter for the all these, like Archeops. So, keeping in mind the possibility of having a common counter if bringing the same Pokemon, i call for a UNBAN ON SPECIES CLAUSE.

2) Shaymin-Sky:



Since its release in Generation 4, Shaymin-Sky has always been a decent Pokemon, with its signature move Seed Flare with a 120 Base Power along with a 80 percent chance of reducing the Special Defence by 2 stages and its Air Slash having a 60% chance of flinching, because of its Serene Grace ability. But apart from these weapons, which gives Shaymin-Sky tremendous stall-breaking capabilities, it gets nothing, and its typing in Grass/Flying is also very bad in 1v1 with common offensive Pokemon in 1v1 being Tapu Koko, Kyurem-B, Mega Charizard, Tapu Lele, Mega Metagross and Sturdy Pokemon, which can easily tank some hits from Shaymin-Sky and retaliate with their own. It is also a bit frail for its typing, thus not being able to tank its weakness.

Calculations:

252 SpA Shaymin-Sky Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 326-386 (89.5 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-Sky Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black: 272-320 (69.5 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-Sky Ancient Power vs. 248 HP / 80 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 308-364 (85.7 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Shaymin-Sky Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 235-277 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-Sky Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 258-304 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-Sky Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 282-334 (78.9 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These calcs show proof that the coverage moves it gets are not enough to KO relevant threats.

To conclude, it is a Pokemon a little better than a glass cannon, which deserves to be unbanned, and so I support for a UNBAN ON SHAYMIN-SKY.
This is on my phone so don’t judge
Sleep: There are many things that beat all relevant sleep users, such as Greninja, Tapu Koko, any Magic Bouncer, any Ghost types in the case of Snorlax, any Grass types in the case of Smeargle, Venusaur or Jumpluff, and anything with Substitute.
Zygod with recovery: before I even start on your arguments, let me just point out the sheer hypocrisy of a person whose basic view on Marshadow was “let the meta settle” and is refusing a much worse Pokemon the same chance. Zygarde-complete is only a behemoth if you let it complete itself, so use a strong Ice-type attack and it’s just kinda dead. With the omnipresent Kyurem-Black, this should not be a problem. Or Greninja for that matter.
Skymin: “Sleep is luck based” “Let’s let the most powerful and fastest user of serene grace and air slash into the tier” I can take a lot of things, but not sheer hypocrisy.
Species Clause: I couldn’t care less about this really

Anyway, Greninja is a Pokémon I can see getting a lot better in USUM, so see y’all on the ladder!
 

Freddy Kyogre

formerly Tai_Lopez9001
im gonna do the same as ggopw and put my opinions, despite little people caring lol

sleep: ban (its annoying as hell and jumpluff makes me hate the game, extremely uncompetitive imo, but if not sleep in general then at least ban jumpluff that shit has no place in this metagame)
zygarde: its good as hell and beats a lot but its not broken imo, so keep unbanned
shaymin-s: keep banned last thing we need is a faster togekiss which is already annoying as fuck to deal with, extremely uncompetitive once again
species clause: keep oh man cant wait for everyone to be running dual charizards and both god damn porys, really looking forward to becoming AG
darkrai: keep banned honestly it would be aggravating to deal with, imo a lot like shaymin with really high speed and a 60% chance to win, not including specs sets with its amazing coverage moves (basically a more usable gengar-mega, which hypnosis on is already beyond tilting)
 
Why is sleep broken? It doesn't matter if it is broken.

The real point is that it is uncompetitive. Let's compare it to 3 things that are banned without even need of suspect: OHKO, accuracy lowering, evasion.

1. OHKO - Let's compare the math to the least accurate sleep move that is utilized, Hypnosis. Hypnosis has 60% accuracy with 66% chance the sleeping mon does not wake up first turn. .6*.66 is about 40% chance you get the free turn to set up the win. Obviously the math gets better as you use higher accuracy moves. OHKO moves are 30% accurate and you don't have to option to set up a sub to protect yourself from the failure that is first turn wake.
Additionally, the potential "abusers" of OHKO would be rather pathetic. Sheer Cold: Abomasnow (probably the most effective abuser of all OHKO); Guillotine: Kartana (I guess it doesn't gain too much from coverage), Pinsir (has much better things to do), Durant (going swarm?); Horn Drill: Excadrill (niche move for niche mon, at best), Dragonite (did you forget your movepool?); Fissure: Zard (why?), Donphan/Golem (maybe you finally beat Gyarados! if he doesn't flinch you...), Lando (why have nice things?)
Counters to OHKO may be far more numerous than counters to sleep. Sturdy has more users than Magic Bounce, more mons in the meta are immune to Fissure or Guillotine/Horn Drill than immune to sleep powder, and the counters to the actual pokemon that would use OHKO moves are numerous.
2. Accuracy lowering - The math on this is also clear. If Venusaur uses Mudslap, the opposing Mawile has a 75% chance to land an attack and a 100% chance to set up a Substitute or Swords Dance next turn. Meanwhile, if Venusaur uses Sleep Powder, Mawile has about a 50% chance to do anything at all next turn (75% accuracy * 66% you don't wake up). Additionally, accuracy lowering has 0 impact on landing a Z-attack or receiving Z-status boosts, while Z-moves cannot be used at all while asleep.

Potential abusers of accuracy lowering include: Venusaur, Chansey? Both of these have much better move options. Am I missing something else that would bother?

Counters include Clear Body, substitute/ground immunity for mud slap, taunt & magic bounce for flash.

3. Evasion
- Evasion is a stronger mechanic than accuracy lowering (not the point of this discussion) but the math is effectively the same as for accuracy lowering. I'm out of steam so see math above.

Replies to previous comments:
Sleep: Trying to target sleep as noncompetitive while not also discussing serene grace or paralysis is a case of double standards. As long as serene grace and paralysis are legal, no ban or suspect for sleep.
Serene Grace should be banned too (discuss soon after). Paralysis has different math so that's a different discussion.

Sleep: There are many things that beat all relevant sleep users, such as Greninja, Tapu Koko, any Magic Bouncer, any Ghost types in the case of Snorlax, any Grass types in the case of Smeargle, Venusaur or Jumpluff, and anything with Substitute.
Greninja & Koko beat Snorlax or Venusaur? There are 2 Magic Bouncers. How many usable grass types are there? (just the ones that can abuse sleep?). Put Crunch on Snorlax sometime and enjoy a day of freelo. Substitute - Smeargle has quick claw for a reason, good luck subbing on Gengar, Jumpluff.

In summary, no sleep suspect. Quick ban as you did with accuracy lowering.

- how many likes does it take to hold up a planet of text?
 
Nice post overall, I just wanna know why the Shaymin-Sky against Primarina isn't specs, seeing that you only put non-specs for Tapu Koko to outspeed it. (sorry for he one liner)
It was as if you included and excluded Specs on your Shaymin calcs for whatever makes it look better. "It's so weak, it can't even OHKO Primarina" (It does with Specs)
Dudes, what you fail to understand here is that a high base Special Attacker along with a very high Base Power Special Attack in Seed Flare should have ideally KOd any Water-type Pokemon, but it doesn't take a Water-type Pokemon which is too low in the usage list to actually tank something that is 2X against it, Primarina with its 80 HP/ 116 SpD is able to nearly tank it, was my point.




"Oh, but even with Specs it can't KO Metagross" etc... Additionally, 248/80 isn't even a Charizard Y spread; no one runs any SpD. When talking about Garchomp, you also excluded the superior coverage option: HP Ice. Finally, and most importantly by far, you straight-up excluded Air Slash from the narrative. You mentioned it once, and in a way that makes you quickly glance over it. Z moves and set speculation also wasn't discussed. What I've said has been a bit ad hominem, but Serene Grace Air Slash with everything else it has going for it is just not okay.
All other calcs are quite relevant, I don't see anything faulty or wrong, the specs calculation was to show that it doesn't even net the KO with specs, Specs vs Koko is irrelevant coz outspeeds, HP Ice does nothing against anything else but LandoT and Garchomp
252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 80 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 306-360 (85.2 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
. And if we are not unbanning a Pokemon just because it can flinch 60% of the time, purpose defeated. Z-Move Shaymin hits nothing ( Z-Seed Flare hits nothing but Water-types , Z-anything else doesn't exactly cut the edge), which is why i neglected mentioning them. Set speculation is after I get something worth mentioning, as of now, it's Scarf and Specs.
Why is sleep broken? It doesn't matter if it is broken.

The real point is that it is uncompetitive. Let's compare it to 3 things that are banned without even need of suspect: OHKO, accuracy lowering, evasion.

1. OHKO - Let's compare the math to the least accurate sleep move that is utilized, Hypnosis. Hypnosis has 60% accuracy with 66% chance the sleeping mon does not wake up first turn. .6*.66 is about 40% chance you get the free turn to set up the win. Obviously the math gets better as you use higher accuracy moves. OHKO moves are 30% accurate and you don't have to option to set up a sub to protect yourself from the failure that is first turn wake.
Additionally, the potential "abusers" of OHKO would be rather pathetic. Sheer Cold: Abomasnow (probably the most effective abuser of all OHKO); Guillotine: Kartana (I guess it doesn't gain too much from coverage), Pinsir (has much better things to do), Durant (going swarm?); Horn Drill: Excadrill (niche move for niche mon, at best), Dragonite (did you forget your movepool?); Fissure: Zard (why?), Donphan/Golem (maybe you finally beat Gyarados! if he doesn't flinch you...), Lando (why have nice things?)
Counters to OHKO may be far more numerous than counters to sleep. Sturdy has more users than Magic Bounce, more mons in the meta are immune to Fissure or Guillotine/Horn Drill than immune to sleep powder, and the counters to the actual pokemon that would use OHKO moves are numerous.
2. Accuracy lowering - The math on this is also clear. If Venusaur uses Mudslap, the opposing Mawile has a 75% chance to land an attack and a 100% chance to set up a Substitute or Swords Dance next turn. Meanwhile, if Venusaur uses Sleep Powder, Mawile has about a 50% chance to do anything at all next turn (75% accuracy * 66% you don't wake up). Additionally, accuracy lowering has 0 impact on landing a Z-attack or receiving Z-status boosts, while Z-moves cannot be used at all while asleep.

Potential abusers of accuracy lowering include: Venusaur, Chansey? Both of these have much better move options. Am I missing something else that would bother?

Counters include Clear Body, substitute/ground immunity for mud slap, taunt & magic bounce for flash.
3. Evasion - Evasion is a stronger mechanic than accuracy lowering (not the point of this discussion) but the math is effectively the same as for accuracy lowering. I'm out of steam so see math above.

Replies to previous comments:
Serene Grace should be banned too (discuss soon after). Paralysis has different math so that's a different discussion.

Greninja & Koko beat Snorlax or Venusaur? There are 2 Magic Bouncers. How many usable grass types are there? (just the ones that can abuse sleep?). Put Crunch on Snorlax sometime and enjoy a day of freelo. Substitute - Smeargle has quick claw for a reason, good luck subbing on Gengar, Jumpluff.

In summary, no sleep suspect. Quick ban as you did with accuracy lowering.

- how many likes does it take to hold up a planet of text?
Seconded. Nice factual post.
 
Why is sleep broken? It doesn't matter if it is broken.
Potential abusers of accuracy lowering include: Venusaur, Chansey? Both of these have much better move options. Am I missing something else that would bother?
alright to be fair the accuracy lowering ban was a combination of things, including aligning the meta with others and their similar-in-scope evasion clauses, but it was also in large part a relic of deoxys-defense. pressure+natural bulk+amnesia/iron defense+recover was strong enough on its own but mud slap made it strong and also annoying, so it was banned first. now that deo-d is banned, accuracy reducing moves wouldn't be a problem, but there's now way that they're gonna be unbanned because they dont really add anything and they feel bad to fight.
 
imma just put my opinions here :
Sleep : you got counters for it , for everyone of the sleep users. lax forexample with uproar or other stuff etc. the people have already given enough examples. sleep is in my opinion one of the cases like serene grace where it feels unfair if you lose to it but use it yourself and you lose still and get frustrated over it
Skymin: im sry but thats still a no go for me , its the cancerous lovechild of togekiss and jirachi
Species clause: straight unban i dont see why not
Darkrai: I think a suspect if not unban would be appropriate where i though rather lean towards a suspect then anything else
Zygod: as many pointed out definetly not a ban . suspect at max. it loses to any common spA with ice even hp Ice blacephalon . plus it get utterly destroyed by any taunt user thats faster than itself
in Conclusion . People Run TAUNT
 
Dudes, what you fail to understand here is that a high base Special Attacker along with a very high Base Power Special Attack in Seed Flare should have ideally KOd any Water-type Pokemon, but it doesn't take a Water-type Pokemon which is too low in the usage list to actually tank something that is 2X against it, Primarina with its 80 HP/ 116 SpD is able to nearly tank it, was my point.




All other calcs are quite relevant, I don't see anything faulty or wrong, the specs calculation was to show that it doesn't even net the KO with specs, Specs vs Koko is irrelevant coz outspeeds, HP Ice does nothing against anything else but LandoT and Garchomp
252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 80 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 306-360 (85.2 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
. And if we are not unbanning a Pokemon just because it can flinch 60% of the time, purpose defeated. Z-Move Shaymin hits nothing ( Z-Seed Flare hits nothing but Water-types , Z-anything else doesn't exactly cut the edge), which is why i neglected mentioning them. Set speculation is after I get something worth mentioning, as of now, it's Scarf and Specs.

Seconded. Nice factual post.
252+ SpA Shaymin-Sky Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ludicolo: 204-240 (67.7 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Skymin doesn’t OHKO every single Water type, let’s unban it! No. Why. Do people use Jirachi to OHKO the tier? (Air slash doesn’t OHKO either FYI)
The answer is NO, because that’s stupid to do. This is literally a better Jirachi with coverage.

Guys, come on. Do we really want the bastard child of Deoxys-Attack and Togekiss in our tier?

Dangit I should have agreed with you so I could be a “factual post” like gojira
 
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DEG

Am I really in control now?
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No, no and no. We're not unbanning Skymin or Darkrai anytime soon. Everyone was complaining about Jirachi 2 months ago and now want Skymin unbanned, I don't get it. Skymin is way better than Jirachi, it has a better speed stat allowing it to run Choice Specs to deal more damage while flinching the opponent which gives it a better win percentage than Jirachi. It also has a better typing and move allowing it to deal better with Fire, and Water-types. Both struggle against common Steel-types so no on win on that point. On top of that Skymin can also utilize Sub Seed as it is fast enough to pull it. On another hand, Darkrai is a problematic Pokemon, I don't see how can you allow something with insane coverage and has access to a Sleep-inducing move. It high high speed and special attack which allows it to put the opponent to sleep or hit it with a super effective move, it has moves from all important types, Electric, Dragon, Dark, Fighting, and Ghost which allows it to hit most things super effectively and with sleep it can cheese more wins.

Zygarde-Perfect will eventually get suspect tested, if not now, later since it is allowed as a playtest and was going to be suspected later on in the metagame.

Uselesscrab will write our opinion about Species Clause and hopefully that will end the debate once for good.
 

Uselesscrab

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Yeah, what DEG said. As far as Species Clause is concerned, we're going to hold firm on keeping it in place. A lack of Species Clause heightens the guessing-game, already moderately luck-based nature of team preview, while simultaneously increasing the potency of versatile top-tier threats such as Kyurem-B**, Porygon-Z, and, more than any other single Pokemon, Charizard.

I don't see how Wrath of Alakazam's "common counter" scenario is desirable in the slightest; rather, it further centralizes the metagame around a small set of Pokemon and their hardest counters, some of which counters perform poorly against the rest of the metagame. It's been well established, by the way, that it's nigh impossible to find a 100% counter to Pokemon like Kyurem-B** and Mega Metagross in the first place, simply given the nature of 1v1.

Other than that, there have not been many compelling arguments, of the few arguments that have been made at all, put forth for the repeal of species clause. Gradient Facade's comments about how having two of the same Pokemon is similar to changing one Pokemon's moveset or EVs are very well-reasoned, but I feel like that sort of revision between battles requires quick thinking and ingenuity, plus it is only effective if the same people continue to play on the ladder. In that case, you're playing off opponent expectations by skillfully modifying your set.

If I bring Taunt Babiri Berry Whimsicott and my opponent is running godsquad and chooses to send his Mega Mawile, then I switch to Moonblast + Occa Berry before the next battle to anticipate his Gyarados or Charizard, that feels to me like a more "deserved" source of ladder points than if I simply bring two Kyurem-Bs** and claim a second consecutive win because my opponent doesn't know if he should stay regular and DD with his standard Charizard X like he did last time (when he lost to my Icium Z one) predicting a Scarf set or mega-evolve and Outrage expecting the Icium Z one again.

In the first situation, there is no expectation of my deceit; I made a clever move to take advantage of my predilections of my opponent. In the second situation, my opponent might as well flip a coin to determine whether he Dragon Dances or Outrages. Yes, I know this situation could be reversed. I could switch my Kyurem-B from Icium Z to Choice Scarf between battles to screw up my opponent and play mindgames. That requires actual proactivity on my part. My opponent is not thrust into a situation where he automatically faces a 50/50 from the first ladder match's team preview. (Those come later, after the second battle, when we get to the psyching-each-other-out phase and all bets are off.) And I won't even get into how stupid species clause's absence would be in tournament games.

Wow, I went on quite a tangent. I feel like there are probably some holes in the scenarios I presented above, so feel free to point them out to me. Anyway, I guess my overall point is that by having species clause, we eliminate one additional source of luck and guessing in an OM filled with luck and guessing.

** yes i know there is some debate about whether it's even possible to bring 2 kyurem-bs because of the dna splicers please don't focus on this and miss the point of my post as a whole
 
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Other than that, there have not been many compelling arguments, of the few arguments that have been made at all, put forth for the repeal of species clause. Gradient Facade's comments about how having two of the same Pokemon is similar to changing one Pokemon's moveset or EVs are very well-reasoned, but I feel like that sort of revision between battles requires quick thinking and ingenuity, plus it is only effective if the same people continue to play on the ladder. In that case, you're playing off opponent expectations by skillfully modifying your set.

If I bring Taunt Babiri Berry Whimsicott and my opponent is running godsquad and chooses to send his Mega Mawile, then I switch to Moonblast + Occa Berry before the next battle to anticipate his Gyarados or Charizard, that feels to me like a more "deserved" source of ladder points than if I simply bring two Kyurem-Bs** and claim a second consecutive win because my opponent doesn't know if he should stay regular and DD with his standard Charizard X like he did last time (when he lost to my Icium Z one) predicting a Scarf set or mega-evolve and Outrage expecting the Icium Z one again.

In the first situation, there is no expectation of my deceit; I made a clever move to take advantage of my predilections of my opponent. In the second situation, my opponent might as well flip a coin to determine whether he Dragon Dances or Outrages. Yes, I know this situation could be reversed. I could switch my Kyurem-B from Icium Z to Choice Scarf between battles to screw up my opponent and play mindgames. That requires actual proactivity on my part. My opponent is not thrust into a situation where he automatically faces a 50/50 from the first ladder match's team preview. (Those come later, after the second battle, when we get to the psyching-each-other-out phase and all bets are off.) And I won't even get into how stupid species clause's absence would be in tournament games.
First I don't believe making an assumption as to how proactive people are or aren't is valid reasoning for anything. I'd like to point out that most top players, such as Kentari, Raimon, UnleashOurPassion, etc don't consistently use just one team at a time while laddering, they're always switching teams up, and if things get intense enough, even switching sets on individual mons to achieve the same effect you outlined with the Whimsicott example. Simply put, changing teams is almost a requirement to getting good performance rates in 1v1. Removing species clause would encourage people not only just to learn opponent's sets as they battle, but to beat the mons using those sets completely, rather than falling into the well-hated realm of counter teaming, or just niche teambuilding in general.

Second People aren't just going to use the same set two or three times in the same team when it comes to teambuilding (This may be an assumption, but even if people go against it, it will only hinder the people using them, rather than their opponents). Every individual set has its own grouping of things it beats and loses to, many sets having such a different range of coverage in comparison to other sets of the same mon, that they essentially become a different pokemon by that comparison.

An example of this would be Porygon-Z. The typical Choice Scarf set is used for outspeeding and OHKO-ing many frail threats, while the lesser used Choice Specs set is used for punching right through bulkier mons that normally beat the Scarf set. This effectively makes Specs Porygon-Z an entirely different threat from Scarf Porygon-Z, with Specs being more comparable to something like Charizard-Y.

Since you can already use Charizard-Y along with Scarf Porygon-Z to cover a similar range of threats as Specs Porygon-Z and more, Why not simply allow us to use the Specs Porygon-Z alongside it instead? Don't you think it's a little suspicious that very few people who took advantage of no species clause, if any, won battles consistently? Not to mention, the lacking presence of good players in Gen 6 1v1 replays who took advantage of no species clause at all, regardless of win or loss, for any purpose other than memes? Exactly. This is because having the same species of mon on a single team acts only as a hindrance to your overall potential viability.

Third The only possible reason I can think of to keep species clause in place, otherwise, is that 1v1 without it would become more "uncompetitive", akin to Accuracy dropping, Sleep, Jirachi, and more. The problem with this idea is that it is mathematically unable to be proven. All the concepts I listed above are uncompetitive, and they all have percent-based chances associated with them, while 1v1 with or without species clause will always be the case of you asking yourself whether you beat the mons your opponent has or not, which does involve risk management, but not typically any kind of fixed chance or gamble that is associated with "uncompetitive" things, similar to picking your lead mon in a 6v6 environment.

Ultimately, I can't provide any reason besides my own opinions that 1v1 without species clause would be better than it is now, just like how I can't change your feelings of whether 1v1 should be 3v3 or the original 1v1. I just implore that you think about it and make the decision that would best benefit the metagame and our community.
 

Uselesscrab

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First I don't believe making an assumption as to how proactive people are or aren't is valid reasoning for anything. I'd like to point out that most top players, such as Kentari, Raimon, UnleashOurPassion, etc don't consistently use just one team at a time while laddering, they're always switching teams up, and if things get intense enough, even switching sets on individual mons to achieve the same effect you outlined with the Whimsicott example. Simply put, changing teams is almost a requirement to getting good performance rates in 1v1.
Yeah ok, there isn't anything remotely controversial about any of these statements

Glyx said:
Removing species clause would encourage people not only just to learn opponent's sets as they battle, but to beat the mons using those sets completely, rather than falling into the well-hated realm of counter teaming, or just niche teambuilding in general.
You use language that makes this sound so positive but it seems to me like you're saying people have to prepare better for specific Pokemon and counter them extra-well because they might just run into two or three at a time...

Glyx said:
Second People aren't just going to use the same set two or three times in the same team when it comes to teambuilding (This may be an assumption, but even if people go against it, it will only hinder the people using them, rather than their opponents). Every individual set has its own grouping of things it beats and loses to, many sets having such a different range of coverage in comparison to other sets of the same mon, that they essentially become a different pokemon by that comparison.

An example of this would be Porygon-Z. The typical Choice Scarf set is used for outspeeding and OHKO-ing many frail threats, while the lesser used Choice Specs set is used for punching right through bulkier mons that normally beat the Scarf set. This effectively makes Specs Porygon-Z an entirely different threat from Scarf Porygon-Z, with Specs being more comparable to something like Charizard-Y.

Since you can already use Charizard-Y along with Scarf Porygon-Z to cover a similar range of threats as Specs Porygon-Z and more, Why not simply allow us to use the Specs Porygon-Z alongside it instead?
I never assumed that people would use the same set... in fact my entire post was predicated on people using different sets. Case in point: my Kyurem-B example.

I really don't get what you're trying to articulate here. Is it that I should be viewing Specs Porygon-Z and Scarf Porygon-Z as two completely different Pokemon? Because in one crucial way they are not. They have the same sprite. I'm not trying to be condescending or didactic here. However, as you quite rightly pointed out, they are entirely different threats. In other words, I might have to assume at team preview, when making my point, that I'm facing both simultaneously. So I certainly won't send a Charizard, which beats Specs but not Scarf. (Assume for the purposes of this example that the two are equally used, which they are not.) Would I go for a Mega Mawile, which beats Scarf but has a chance to lose to Specs? Maybe...but I might get psyched out by there being two of them. Do you see why this isn't the foundation of a competitive metagame?

Glyx said:
Don't you think it's a little suspicious that very few people who took advantage of no species clause, if any, won battles consistently? Not to mention, the lacking presence of good players in Gen 6 1v1 replays who took advantage of no species clause at all, regardless of win or loss, for any purpose other than memes? Exactly. This is because having the same species of mon on a single team acts only as a hindrance to your overall potential viability.
This whole series of questions is extremely anecdotal, first of all, but I could just as easily replace "no species clause" with "accuracy-lowering moves." Something does not have to be really good to be banned. Which leads into your next point:

Glyx said:
Third The only possible reason I can think of to keep species clause in place, otherwise, is that 1v1 without it would become more "uncompetitive", akin to Accuracy dropping, Sleep, Jirachi, and more. The problem with this idea is that it is mathematically unable to be proven. All the concepts I listed above are uncompetitive, and they all have percent-based chances associated with them, while 1v1 with or without species clause will always be the case of you asking yourself whether you beat the mons your opponent has or not, which does involve risk management, but not typically any kind of fixed chance or gamble that is associated with "uncompetitive" things, similar to picking your lead mon in a 6v6 environment.
It's a good thing we don't rely on mathematical proof to ban things. I tried to make this point clear when people were throwing around all that "Kyurem-B beats 72% of the metagame" stuff. Forgive my weird word choice as I just spent four hours writing essays about linguistics, but you have greatly semantically narrowed the definition of "uncompetitive" to the point that it no longer resembles the official meaning outlined in Smogon tiering policy:

OU official tiering policy said:
II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
A.) This can be match up related; think the determination that BP took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team match up issue, where even with the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough.
B.) This can be external factors; think endless battle clause, where the determining factor becomes internet connection over playing skill.
C.) This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, SwagPlay, Evasion, or Moody, all of which turn the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not.
D.) Note uncompetitive elements are almost always present in the battling skill aspect; they will, however, be present in the team building aspect should we allow them in the sense of having to rely on excessively specific counters (such as loading teams with Sturdy or Keen Eye Pokemon and the like).
Point C is one of only three ways something can be deemed uncompetitive, yet you choose to assume it's the only one. Have I not shown that "the effect of player choice" is considerably reduced with my above Charizard X vs. Kyurem-B example? Moreover, have I not shown that we have to "rely on excessively specific counters" in a post-species clause world? Because if I haven't, you and WoA certainly did with these statements:

WoA said:
Here, species clause also brings with it the possibility of having a common counter for the all these, like Archeops. So, keeping in mind the possibility of having a common counter if bringing the same Pokemon, i call for a UNBAN ON SPECIES CLAUSE.
Glyx said:
Removing species clause would encourage people not only just to learn opponent's sets as they battle, but to beat the mons using those sets completely
Ultimately, I can't provide any reason besides my own opinions that 1v1 without species clause would be better than it is now, just like how I can't change your feelings of whether 1v1 should be 3v3 or the original 1v1. I just implore that you think about it and make the decision that would best benefit the metagame and our community.
I hope that people trust that we have everyone's best interests in mind when we do this stuff. I understand that maintaining species clause is not as fun — one doesn't get to make as many quirky teams with funny lures — but I hope I've proven that it's more competitive this way.
 
Incoming wall of text.

Yeah, what DEG said. As far as Species Clause is concerned, we're going to hold firm on keeping it in place. A lack of Species Clause heightens the guessing-game, already moderately luck-based nature of team preview, while simultaneously increasing the potency of versatile top-tier threats such as Kyurem-B**, Porygon-Z, and, more than any other single Pokemon, Charizard.


It's been well established, by the way, that it's nigh impossible to find a 100% counter to Pokemon like Kyurem-B** and Mega Metagross in the first place, simply given the nature of 1v1.

From my perspective, I do not like the idea that a select few 1v1 threats can prevent every other pokemon in 1v1 from being paired with itself. If a pokemon is so versatile and powerful that it is 100% impossible to truly counter, then that is a problem caused by that pokemon itself, not the lack of a species clause since that pokemon will always be impossible to truly counter regardless.


I wanna add to Glyx's own argument for a second here. As he has said, Charizard Y is a wallbreaker that can be paired with scarf Porygon-Z. In this way, Charizard Y fills the same roll in assisting scarf porygon Z in an extremely similar manner as specs Porygon-Z would. Whether you face Char Y+Scarf PoryZ or Specs PoryZ+Scarf PoryZ, you are forced to pick an option while knowing that you can only beat 1, not both. There are other examples, but even if you don't have to go against two identical looking pokemon, you still have to face multiple threats whose synergy means that you cannot truly counter them without some very specific team building.


On the note of luck and the uncertainty of what sets certain pokemon are running, your opponent running multiple sets with the same pokemon can actually make it EASIER to figure out what sets are being ran.


Say you run into 3 charizards at once. You automatically know for sure that at least one of those zards is a different mega evolution than the others or all 3 would be countered by certain mons. One zard set is almost certainly going to use a bulky/defensive spread to beat any threats that can outspeed and OHKO a typical offensive zard set. With that knowledge alone, we can already pretty effectively estimate what sort of team our opponent has brought.


Now, let's look at a typical 1v1 core as another example: Kyurem Black, Charizard, and Mega Gyarados. Just like charizard, its partners can run multiple different sets. However, because each of them has different weaknesses instead of all sharing the same ones, it becomes very difficult to accurately gauge what each mon is running. Kyurem B might be scarfed in order to beat fast special attackers that would otherwise beat offensive Charizard X. However, Charizard may actually be a bulky Y variant that is instead designed to beat anything that Icium Z Kyurem B cannot break through.


I am kinda going off on my own tangent now. The point that I am trying to make is that a team made up of identical looking threats and a team made up of varied threats can both leave you guessing which mon you should send out when playing against a player with equal . You cannot be sure what sets are being ran on what, even if the mons look different. In that regard, a species clause does not cut down on the luck based aspects of choosing which pokemon to send out.


You might be wondering why I am trying so hard to argue against the species clause. From my perspective, I think the lack of a species clause makes it easier to determine what mons are unhealthy for the metagame by giving an extremely direct method to show a specific mon's flexibility/versatility. If it only takes 3 of the same mon to bring the 1v1 metagame to its knees, that alone should be a pretty telling reason why something is too overpowered in the 1v1 metagame. That is what the lack of a species clause is to me: a tool to more effectively showcase imbalance within the metagame so that we, the players and voters, act accordingly.


Sorry for the wall of text.
 
Yeah ok, there isn't anything remotely controversial about any of these statements
Going to assume not sarcasm-
You use language that makes this sound so positive but it seems to me like you're saying people have to prepare better for specific Pokemon and counter them extra-well because they might just run into two or three at a time...
More or less. Maybe it's just my dictator way of thinking, but I view ironing out bad teambuilding as a good thing.
I never assumed that people would use the same set... in fact my entire post was predicated on people using different sets. Case in point: my Kyurem-B example.

I really don't get what you're trying to articulate here. Is it that I should be viewing Specs Porygon-Z and Scarf Porygon-Z as two completely different Pokemon? Because in one crucial way they are not. They have the same sprite. I'm not trying to be condescending or didactic here. However, as you quite rightly pointed out, they are entirely different threats. In other words, I might have to assume at team preview, when making my point, that I'm facing both simultaneously. So I certainly won't send a Charizard, which beats Specs but not Scarf. (Assume for the purposes of this example that the two are equally used, which they are not.) Would I go for a Mega Mawile, which beats Scarf but has a chance to lose to Specs? Maybe...but I might get psyched out by there being two of them. Do you see why this isn't the foundation of a competitive metagame?
Of course they aren't completely different pokemon, they just serve differing roles. The point I was trying to make that you missed is that why shouldn't I be allowed to use the combination of Specs and Scarf Porygon-Z when Charizard-Y does Specs Porygon-Z's job significantly better? The choice at preview isn't much different, unless you're expecting Band Porygon-Z for some reason...
This whole series of questions is extremely anecdotal, first of all, but I could just as easily replace "no species clause" with "accuracy-lowering moves." Something does not have to be really good to be banned. Which leads into your next point:
I'm glad you at least got the point. The point being to clarify for you (just in case you didn't know) and everyone else that Species Clause isn't something that was put in place because it broke the meta, rather that it's only there for what some people may consider the sake of being competitive.
It's a good thing we don't rely on mathematical proof to ban things. I tried to make this point clear when people were throwing around all that "Kyurem-B beats 72% of the metagame" stuff. Forgive my weird word choice as I just spent four hours writing essays about linguistics, but you have greatly semantically narrowed the definition of "uncompetitive" to the point that it no longer resembles the official meaning outlined in Smogon tiering policy:

Point C is one of only three ways something can be deemed uncompetitive, yet you choose to assume it's the only one. Have I not shown that "the effect of player choice" is considerably reduced with my above Charizard X vs. Kyurem-B example? Moreover, have I not shown that we have to "rely on excessively specific counters" in a post-species clause world? Because if I haven't, you and WoA certainly did with these statements:
Of course. The problem is that you contradicted your example with Charizard X vs Kyurem-B by saying my First section was not controversial. Then again you could've just been being sarcastic and not explaining your reasoning behind the statement. Now secondly, what's your beef with probability management/math in general? Knowing what your odds are in a hax-influenced metagame like 1v1 seems pretty important, especially if it's mentioned in smogon's own tiering policy, no?
I hope that people trust that we have everyone's best interests in mind when we do this stuff. I understand that maintaining species clause is not as fun — one doesn't get to make as many quirky teams with funny lures — but I hope I've proven that it's more competitive this way.
Your math-hating explanation better be good, honestly. Otherwise it might start to seem like you're just pushing your own agenda now that you're in power, which would be good if we chose you as a leader, but that isn't quite the case.
 

Uselesscrab

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I am becoming fatigued by this conversation, and I think that will be pretty apparent in this post. I wanted to take time to respond to Gradient later, but oh well.

Going to assume not sarcasm-
Yes, I was being serious.

Of course they aren't completely different pokemon, they just serve differing roles. The point I was trying to make that you missed is that why shouldn't I be allowed to use the combination of Specs and Scarf Porygon-Z when Charizard-Y does Specs Porygon-Z's job significantly better? The choice at preview isn't much different, unless you're expecting Band Porygon-Z for some reason...
I don't know how to explain the guessing component any more than I already have. Also, Charizard was not a good choice of an example on your part because I don't ever know if I'm going to see a Charizard Y in particular when I get into team preview.

Of course. The problem is that you contradicted your example with Charizard X vs Kyurem-B by saying my First section was not controversial.
Let's take a look at these sections again.

I simply bring two Kyurem-Bs** and claim a second consecutive win because my opponent doesn't know if he should stay regular and DD with his standard Charizard X like he did last time (when he lost to my Icium Z one) predicting a Scarf set or mega-evolve and Outrage expecting the Icium Z one again.
First I don't believe making an assumption as to how proactive people are or aren't is valid reasoning for anything. I'd like to point out that most top players, such as Kentari, Raimon, UnleashOurPassion, etc don't consistently use just one team at a time while laddering, they're always switching teams up, and if things get intense enough, even switching sets on individual mons to achieve the same effect you outlined with the Whimsicott example. Simply put, changing teams is almost a requirement to getting good performance rates in 1v1.
Yes, I'm reading this again and I still agree with it. But changing teams every battle? That's not necessary, it's often not strategically sound or remotely advantageous, and I think people who do that (like Kentari, yes) make up a very small minority. Even so, by the way, if you're running a set rotation of several teams, you're bound to run into the same matchup twice. To be completely honest, at this point, this line of discussion has gotten far enough away from the issue of species clause that I'm having trouble figuring out where we're going.

Now secondly, what's your beef with probability management/math in general? Knowing what your odds are in a hax-influenced metagame like 1v1 seems pretty important, especially if it's mentioned in smogon's own tiering policy, no?

Your math-hating explanation better be good, honestly. Otherwise it might start to seem like you're just pushing your own agenda now that you're in power, which would be good if we chose you as a leader, but that isn't quite the case.
I have no "beef with math in general." I don't believe arbitrarily determined percentages like the Kyurem-B one are the sole means by which we should decide whether or not to ban something, but that's unrelated.

If you had brought up something probabilistic in favor of getting rid of species clause and I had immediately dismissed it, maybe then you could say that I have an issue with refusing to accept clearly defined probabilities. But actually, what you did was say that since you have no way of quantifying that species clause is uncompetitive, it must not be, even though the other criteria involved with species clause are qualitative, not quantitative — and as you said, I correctly applied those criteria.

This whole process of posting and parsing through arguments is very tiresome and I really don't want to seem like my role as one of the leaders of this meta is to endlessly argue with people who disagree with me, but "math-hating"? The "agenda" stuff... that's just incendiary for the sake of being incendiary. I don't feel that I should have to dignify that with a response, but for what it's worth, my initial post was on behalf of the entire leadership. I have no personal "agenda" and the idea that I would be strong-arming DEG and TI (lol) or whatever because I hate math!!! is bizarre.

Anyway, I'm not going to post here for a while. I'd like to see what others think on the subject, because clearly I can't get my points across.
 
Of course they aren't completely different pokemon, they just serve differing roles. The point I was trying to make that you missed is that why shouldn't I be allowed to use the combination of Specs and Scarf Porygon-Z when Charizard-Y does Specs Porygon-Z's job significantly better? The choice at preview isn't much different, unless you're expecting Band Porygon-Z for some reason...
I'm going to address this part because this bugs me. This seems to suggest there is no competitive advantage for running two of the same pokemon over two pokemon that serve a unique role. This is untrue for a simple reason: the etiquette of how you play matters.

Let's imagine for a second two people are on the ladder and have not yet decided they're changing teams yet. There's a variety of reasons they might do this such as they're trying to peak to post an RMT, they're testing a team, the current team does an exceedingly good job against the majority of the current ladder. For whatever reason (scouting, played before, good reasoning), each player knows what the other person is running. For this example, player 1 knows that player 2 is running either Mega Charizard Y and Scarf Porygon Z or Specs Porygon Z and Scarf Porygon Z and player 2 knows that player 1 is running Protect Stone Edge Blaziken. For the sake of this example, the other 3 pokemon won't be considered. You should be able to notice something here. Blaziken will be favored in the matchup against Charizard Y and Specs PZ, but unfavored against Scarf PZ. However, none of these matches are 100% and there is a chance for error in all of them.

In the first example where Species Clause exists, Player 1 will be able to play optimally with Blaziken regardless of what pokemon Player 2 uses. Against Charizard Y, he'll protect turn 1 and Stone Edge turn 2. Against Porygon Z, he'll protect turn 1, turn 2, and then HJK turn 3. This gives calculable chances of success for each match up. Match up 1 is 80% favored for Blaziken. Match up 2 is 70% favored for Porygon Z. Overall Player 1 has 55% chance beating Player 2 (assuming Player 2 chooses his pokemon equally)

However, if we are to remove Species Clause, Player 1 CANNOT play optimally in either match up. Ideally against a Specs Porygon Z, Player 1 would like to not risk going for the second Protect as he outspeeds from +1, theoretically giving him a 90% favored matchup. However, because there is no distinguishable features between specs and scarf PZ player 1 does not know if he should attempt a second protect. If he does the matchup drops from 90% favored to 30% favored, and not only this against Scarf PZ his match up stays the same. If Player 1 chooses to never protect his match up will be 90% and 0% respectively overall being 45%. If he always goes for the protect it will always be 30%. If he protects half the time, then it's 60% and 15% respectively overall being 37.5%. Player 1 playing the best he can, chooses to never go for the protect which has an overall win rate of 45%.

So despite Specs Porygon-Z having a worse matchup against Blaziken, purely by having two Porygon-Z's will Player 2's win rate rise. Not only will Player 2's win rate rise, but it will only because of an element out of Player 1's control, which according to smogon is the hallmark of an uncompetitive aspect and is one we can reasonably keep out.
 
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I'm going to address this part because this bugs me. This seems to suggest there is no competitive advantage for running two of the same pokemon over two pokemon that serve a unique role. This is untrue for a simple reason: the etiquette of how you play matters.

Let's imagine for a second two people are on the ladder and have not yet decided they're changing teams yet. There's a variety of reasons they might do this such as they're trying to peak to post an RMT, they're testing a team, the current team does an exceedingly good job against the majority of the current ladder. For whatever reason (scouting, played before, good reasoning), each player knows what the other person is running. For this example, player 1 knows that player 2 is running either Mega Charizard Y and Scarf Porygon Z or Specs Porygon Z and Scarf Porygon Z and player 2 knows that player 1 is running Protect Stone Edge Blaziken. For the sake of this example, the other 3 pokemon won't be considered. You should be able to notice something here. Blaziken will be favored in the matchup against Charizard Y and Specs PZ, but unfavored against Scarf PZ. However, none of these matches are 100% and there is a chance for error in all of them.

In the first example where Species Clause exists, Player 1 will be able to play optimally with Blaziken regardless of what pokemon Player 2 uses. Against Charizard Y, he'll protect turn 1 and Stone Edge turn 2. Against Porygon Z, he'll protect turn 1, turn 2, and then HJK turn 3. This gives calculable chances of success for each match up. Match up 1 is 80% favored for Blaziken. Match up 2 is 70% favored for Porygon Z. Overall Player 1 has 55% chance beating Player 2 (assuming Player 2 chooses his pokemon equally)

However, if we are to remove Species Clause, Player 1 CANNOT play optimally in either match up. Ideally against a Specs Porygon Z, Player 1 would like to not risk going for the second Protect as he outspeeds from +1, theoretically giving him a 90% favored matchup. However, because there is no distinguishable features between specs and scarf PZ player 1 does not know if he should attempt a second protect. If he does the matchup drops from 90% favored to 30% favored, and not only this against Scarf PZ his match up stays the same. If Player 1 chooses to never protect his match up will be 90% and 0% respectively overall being 45%. If he always goes for the protect it will always be 30%. If he protects half the time, then it's 60% and 15% respectively overall being 37.5%. Player 1 playing the best he can, chooses to never go for the protect which has an overall win rate of 45%.

So despite Specs Porygon-Z having a worse matchup against Blaziken, purely by having two Porygon-Z's will Player 2's win rate rise. Not only will Player 2's win rate rise, but it will only because of an element out of Player 1's control, which according to smogon is the hallmark of an uncompetitive aspect and is one we can reasonably keep out.
I cannot dispute that a metagame without species clause enabled would make it easier for players to make which sets their mons are using more ambiguous, akin to Charizard, but I can suggest that this concept is one that already exists in the current metagame due to players who proactively change their sets to have more favorable matchups against opponents.

I can also suggest that because of this, the removal of species clause would make it more convenient for people to achieve this factor of ambiguity, but it's just that, a convenience. Of course, there are people who aren't as proactive when it comes to teambuilding, but I don't believe these people are representative of the 1v1 community as a whole, or even a majority in terms of the vocal community. Ultimately, it's not my choice who we make these kinds of changes for, but I believe that if suspect tests have any kind of comparison to clause tests, it's that the credible, knowledgeable, and overall qualified people within the community should be the ones making these choices.
 

DEG

Am I really in control now?
is a Smogon Media Contributor
I'm not going to reply to every argument post from above cause that would take too long but let me have my say into this. Species Clause was added for three reasons, and I'll make them all clear, first was to make the metagame more competitive by Smogon standards, make team preview rely on predictions and not just a guessing again, to diversify the metagame.

1) Our objective as a 1v1 leadership team and community is to make the metagame both enjoyable and competitive. We aren't leading a sort of only fun metagame nor something like Anything Goes. 1v1 should be treated as a competitive metagame, that should follow the same definitions as competitive. This would solidify us a a metagame trying to become better, and move forward and not be taken as a fun metagame that has no place in a competitive scene.

2) As explained above and before, having the same two Pokemon would amplify the guessing games. A lot of sets can be guessed via Team Preview by adding different same Pokemon to that Team Preview that would take out the prediction part in team preview which is an essential aspect of plays in 1v1. And that becomes worse when you have 3 of the same Pokemon which would just turn it to something as stupid as a coinflip. If you come with an argument about how the team would be bad with that, do not even bother saying it, since if the team becomes bad why are we even bothering discussing this, why don't you just drop it**.

3) Diversity has always been a problem ever since Generation 5, but in Generation 7 we are seeing more Pokemon, more sets and more cores in general. By removing Species Clause we allow people to run good Pokemon more than once which will hit diversity. This will also give the community more Pokemon to talk about being broken, "omg running 2 of this Pokemon is unpredictable, can we please get this Pokemon banned". Diversity is something we aim to get, it's something we aim to work to reach to make the metagame more enjoyable and competitive.

**We ban / unban things to bring positive changes to the metagame, if such change is either negative or neutral we do not touch it. We shouldn't waste time to make the metagame significantly worse or just add/remove for the sake of it. I don't know if I'm making sense I'm tired and decided to write stuff and clarify stuff, I'll develop if needed.
 
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1vI

formerly BattleDragon
I'm not going to reply to every argument post from above cause that would take too long but let me have my say into this. Species Clause was added for three reasons, and I'll make them all clear, first was to make the metagame more competitive by Smogon standards, make team preview rely on predictions and not just a guessing again, to diversify the metagame.

1) Our object as a 1v1 leadership team and community is to make the metagame both enjoyable and competitive. We aren't leading a sort of only fun metagame nor something like Anything Goes. 1v1 should be treated as a competitive metagame, that should follow the same definitions as competitive. This would solidify us a a metagame trying to become better, and move forward and not be taken as a fun metagame that has no place in a competitive scene.

2) As explained above and before, having the same two Pokemon would amplify the guessing games. A lot of sets can be guessed via Team Preview by adding different same Pokemon to that Team Preview that would take out the prediction part in team preview which is an essential aspect of plays in 1v1. And that becomes worse when you have 3 of the same Pokemon which would just turn it to something as stupid as a coinflip. If you come with an argument about how the team would be bad with that, do not even bother saying it, since if the team becomes bad why are we even bothering discussing this, why don't you just drop it**.

3) Diversity has always been a problem ever since Generation 5, but in Generation 7 we are seeing more Pokemon, more sets and more cores in general. By removing Species Clause we allow people to run good Pokemon more than once which will hit diversity. This will also give the community more Pokemon to talk about being broken, "omg running 2 of this Pokemon is unpredictable, can we please get this Pokemon banned". Diversity is something we aim to get, it's something we aim to work to reach to make the metagame more enjoyable and competitive.

**We ban / unban things to bring positive changes to the metagame, if such change is either negative or neutral we do not touch it. We shouldn't waste time to make the metagame significantly worse or just add/remove for the sake of it. I don't know if I'm making sense I'm tired and decided to write stuff and clarify stuff, I'll develop if needed.
This post is partially to DEG

Sounds great! I'm working on an informational post on what Species Clause does, just to help clarify any confusion some people have.

On the other hand, keeping Species Clause is perfectly fine. However, many people believed that it was unjustified when implemented at the beginning of the generation, but if the goal is to make 1v1 more official/public, forget about species clause. Its a Showdown wide policy (along with endless battle clause) and if you have a problem with it take it there.

However, after spending a night looking at the facts, statistics, and matchups, species clause has very little impact on the metagame. Do not argue this, it is pointless. Its simply too bad we're not going to get it.

I'll also make a post on the other things people want to consider changing.