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Quality Control [2013] Hitmontop (QC 2/3)

Discussion in 'Past VGC Analyses' started by Tobes, May 18, 2013.

  1. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
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    [​IMG]
    I'll write this one

    [Overview]
    • Very prominent
    • Intimidate does work. Lots of it.
    • Wide assortment of excellent support moves, quite a few of which are rare
    • Great attack and a brutal STAB do a lot of damage even without much investment
    • Can be hard to kill with proper defensive investment
    • Great at assisting a bunch of different Pokemon
    • Can have trouble beating anything that resists its STAB
    [SET]
    name: Standard Support
    move 1: Fake Out
    move 2: Close Combat
    move 3: Feint / Sucker Punch / Helping Hand
    move 4: Wide Guard / Helping Hand / Detect
    item: Fighting Gem
    ability: Intimidate
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Great for supporting offensive teams: Intimidate, excellent moves, very strong.
    • Fighting Gem pumps up an already powerful Close Combat
    • Fake Out is great. Stops opponents from moving which can protect your teammates, or can make an opponent helpless long enough for a partner to take it out. Also adds a level of psychological warfare.
    • Feint takes advantage of said mind games; it can achieve the same effect as Fake Out if the opponent tries to double-Protect to make Fake Out useless, and also makes sure your opponent can only keep key Pokemon safe by switching them out. Also useful for sniping 1 HP Pokemon due to priority.
    • Sucker Punch hits Psychic and Ghost-types fairly hard.
    • Helping Hand gives Hitmontop something to do if it can't touch its current opponents, or if you desperately need to OHKO something.
    • Detect usually can't be Imprisoned, unlike Protect
    • Wide Guard protects against things like Rock Slide, Earthquake, and Heat Wave; obviously more for the partner's benefit than Hitmontop's.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • EV spread gives you some bulk and maximum power.
    • Life Orb is an option for more consistent power, but Fighting Gem is generally superior.
    • Helping Hand support lets Hitmontop OHKO 4 HP Latios 87.5% of the time with Sucker Punch, and lets Fighting Gem-boosted Close Combat OHKO damn near anything that doesn't resist.
    • Teammates that threaten Psychic-types, Ghost-types, and Flying-types - Tyranitar, Bisharp, Scizor, Terrakion, Mamoswine, etc.
    • Volcarona loves Fake Out and Wide Guard support.
    • Wants offensive teammates that can capitalize on the openings it creates.
    • Taunt partners make it easier to hit things like Chandelure, Cresselia, Dusclops, etc with Sucker Punch.
    • Substitute users can really capitalize on double-Protects induced by the threat of Fake Out.
    • Defiant Tornadus is really scary for this set. Have answers like Thundurus and Metagross
    [SET]
    name: Bulky Support
    move 1: Fake Out
    move 2: Close Combat
    move 2: Feint / Helping Hand / Sucker Punch
    move 4: Wide Guard / Helping Hand / Detect
    item: Sitrus Berry / Fighting Gem
    ability: Intimidate
    nature: Careful
    evs: 252 HP / 84 Atk / 4 Def / 164 SpD / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Excellent support Pokemon: Great moves, great ability, no slouch offensively
    • Intimidate does tons and tons of work: Weakens opponents, protects Pokemon vulnerable to prominent threats (Thundurus, Cresselia, from Terrakion, Tyranitar, etc), forces switches, etc
    • Close Combat is a strong STAB even with low investment, will hurt anything that doesn't resist it
    • Sucker Punch for Latios and the like, gives you a neutral option against things that resist Fighting-types
    • Fake Out is a fantastic move. Disrupt opponents, net free KOes, provide set-up time, mindgames, etc etc
    • Helping Hand to aim teammates, especially useful when Top can't really hurt its current opponents by itself
    • Feint is can be used to score KOes against Protecting opponents who think they're safe, also good for mindgames; forces opponent to switch out if they absolutely want to keep that Pokemon alive
    • Detect because it's hard to Imprison
    • Wide Guard blocks moves like Surf, Rock Slide, Heat Wave, etc.
    • Hitmontop doesn't strictly need defensive moves; it's just fine to pick Close Combat + the 3 attacks that compliment its teammates best.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • EV spread survives anything a Dragon Gem Latios can throw at it: Dragon Gem Draco Meteor, Psychic, Psyshock, etc
    • Some attack investment ensures you OHKO non-Chople Berry 252 HP / 36 Def Tyranitar with CC
    • Brave + -spe IVs for Trick Room is an option
    • Can shift bulk to Attack for more power but suffers from a severe drop in bulk
    • Fighting Gem for initial power or Sitrus Berry for survivability
    • Stone Edge to hit Flying-types hard
    • ChestoRest
    • Teammates that likes Intimidate support: Thundurus, Cresselia, Tyranitar, etc
    • Teammates that beat up on Cresselia and Lati@s: Tyranitar, Bisharp, Scrafty, etc
    • Another teammate with Intimidate to stack the effect: Salamence, Scrafty, etc.
    • Partners with Skill Swap: Cresselia
    • Volcarona makes a good partner: likes Wide Guard and makes life hard for Psychic-types
    [Other Options]
    • Technitop: Outclassed by Breloom
    • Dark Gem on offensive set; OHKOes 4 HP Latios with Sucker Punch 7/8ths of the time.
    • Low Kick
    • Rock Slide
    • Quick Guard
    • Counter
    [Checks and Counters]
    • DEFIANT TORNADUS
    • Cresselia
    • Landorus-T
    • Thundurus / Thundurus-T
    • Jellicent, Dusclops, Sableye
    • Substitute Latios
    • Togekiss
    • Salamence
  2. R Inanimate

    R Inanimate Grasp the earth, Grasp the World.
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    If the statistics for Hitmontop in the wi-fi tourneys is any indication...
    Fake Out should be de-slashed and placed as moveslot #1, as pretty much every hitmontop runs Fake Out. Although some would say that the threat of fake out can be good enough, Fake Out is way too useful of a move for Hitmontop to reasonably pass up. As such, things will shift to having a moveset of Fake Out + Close Combat + 2 other moves. With Sucker Punch / Helping Hand / Feint for move 3, and Detect / Wide Guard for move 4.

    Mention something about using Adamant Hitmontop, since that is probably more used than Careful. I'm not that familiar with the EV spreads that many people use for Hitmontops though, since I've never really had much success with using one on my teams. All I know is that EVs invested into speed can vary greatly.
  3. lucariojr

    lucariojr goodra will hunting
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    Adamant 252 Gemmed Hitmontop should be the first set period. Its close combat isn't all /that/ strong, but it's enough to ohko reasonably bulky stuff like ludicolo, kingdra and chople ttar, which is too good to pass up. A careful set should probably go second with all its bells and whistles in that AC.

    also, this is how the first set should be imo:

    [SET]
    name: Standard Support
    move 1: Fake Out
    move 2: Close Combat
    move 3: Feint / Sucker Punch / Helping Hand
    move 4: Wide Guard / Helping Hand / Detect
    item: Fighting Gem
    ability: Intimidate
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def (basic evs are basic)

    detect isn't all that great on hitmontop since it's usually doing so many other great things with its time, but protect is protect i guess. also feint as the first option because sucker punch really isn't powerful at all, but it can 2hko latios (50% damage iirc....) which is cool i guess? kind of makes me wonder about the europeans with their dark gem hitmontop, but w/e. feint is just so useful for netting KO's through protect and if you can predict right you can feint right through a double protect or something first turn for a free ko
  4. The Knights of Wario Land

    The Knights of Wario Land

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    Low Kick >>> Low Sweep and also should mention why LK is a decent alternative to CC

    Get rid of the Rock Slide mention RS is pathetic on Top; mention Mach Punch due to how Sucker Punch can easily be predicted around
  5. Magicxgame

    Magicxgame

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    Fake Out needs to be a mandatory move on the support set period, as it is one of the main reasons to use Hitmontop. While Stone Edge has awful accuracy, I'd list it as a main option on an offensive Top, since it OHKOs even max HP Volcarona after an Intimidate and 2HKOs bulky Thundurus even after Sitrus (assuming max Attack).

    Small nitpicks: I've noticed some players dropping Sucker Punch on Hitmontop, so I'd list it as one of the later options. For support Top, Wide Guard needs to be one of the first slashes, since completely nullifying powerful EQs/Muddy Waters/whatnot is amazing.

    Also: Dark Gem Sucker Punch is a 68.75% OHKO on 4 HP Latios (62.5% on 4 HP / 4 Def), which I would know since Japanese players love(d) to use it. >_> Dark Gem's worth mentioning in OO.
  6. Biosci

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    Dark Gem Sucker Punch is really unreliable to deal with Latios. Not only are you relying on a good damage roll to get the job done, but you also rely on you not getting Intimidated by the other guy's Pokemon. A lot of Latios nowadays are even running Substitute which makes it even harder for this to work. It deserves on OO mention at most, but make sure to mention why it's not so good
  7. Nine Inch Nails

    Nine Inch Nails

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    I use

    Hitmontop@Life Orb
    Adamant Nature
    Ability Technician
    Evs: 252HP/252Atk/4Def
    -Fake Out
    -Mach Punch
    -Sucker Punch
    -Aerial Ace

    \with

    Weavile@Focus Sash
    Jolly Nature
    Ability Pickpocket
    Evs: 4HP/252Atk/252Spd
    -Fake Out
    -Ice Punch
    -Night Slash
    -Protect

    This combo will destroy Dragon/Flying/Ghost and many other types
  8. superspaceshooter

    superspaceshooter

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    Intimidate is incredible in doubles, I will admit. Lately I've been wavering between Hitmontop and Scrafty as my Intimidate, Fake-Out, Fighting-type lead. While Scrafty is bulkier, his weakness to Fighting is seemingly more problematic than Hitmontop's weakness to Psychic, since I would never run a Doubles team without at least one Fighting move, but Psychic isn't a shoo-in. Additionally, you can run a set on Hitmontop that is all priority, allowing you to bypass speed EV's (and maybe even make him Brave for Trick Room purposes) and add more Bulk. It's not like you aren't doing the same thing for Scrafty, but Scrafty will usually move last.

    However, when you have a team that is designed to tempo teams out, I've had a lot of success with Technitop. Here's my build:

    Hitmontop @ Life Orb
    Adamant
    Technician
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
    -Fake Out
    -Mach Punch
    -Sucker Punch
    -Detect

    Well, this is almost a carbon copy of the set the guy posted above me, save Aerial Ace over Detect, which actually might be better suited for my team. Anyways, when you're trying to kill as quickly as possible, Intimidate loses a bit of its luster, and Hitmontop's all priority set combined with his attack-boosting ability and survivability makes him one of the best in the business.

    Helping Hand is another priority move to consider too.
  9. lucariojr

    lucariojr goodra will hunting
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    Technician Hitmontop is simply outclassed by Breloom, can't deal enough damage to justify the loss of Close Combat and doesn't have much utility besides Fake Out and hitting stuff with priority moves.

    It's outclassed by Breloom because it actually has some utility in Spore, and isn't just dealing chip damage against Rain teams. Scizor also outclasses it because of Bullet Punch, Bug Bite (Cresselia), and the option to run stuff like Acrobatics and Swords Dance.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 62-74 (41.05 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - Only a 2HKO even after Fake Out (assuming they don't Protect on it), whereas...
    252+ Atk Fighting Gem Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 142-168 (94.03 - 111.25%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
    Tyranitar isn't even as scared of Technitop: 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chople Berry Tyranitar: 109-133 (52.65 - 64.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Fighting Gem Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chople Berry Tyranitar: 254-300 (122.7 - 144.92%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    You also can't take hits with a Life Orb attached, such as: 252 SpA Choice Specs Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hitmontop: 121-144 (77.07 - 91.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (potential OHKO after a turn of LO recoil)
    and if you say "oh, i'll just take Life Orb off, then", you lose out on major damage on stuff like Latios (OHKO after Fake Out) and Chandelure (OHKO on 4 HP versions).

    When I say this Hitmontop lacks utility, I mostly mean it lacks Intimidate. Stuff like Helping Hand is nice and all, but mostly people go to Hitmontop for a [relatively] strong Fighting-type and Intimidate. Both niches are gone the moment you slap Technician on a perfectly good Hitmontop, because then you're not playing Hitmontop like it's a team player; you're playing it as a stand alone attacker when it really shouldn't be.
  10. superspaceshooter

    superspaceshooter

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    All of these points you are making are absolutely true, but you would have to admit that you're biasing your reasoning on a few factors that aren't always present.

    On a strictly offensive team that requires speed, Breloom just doesn't get the job done. I understand that Hitmontop isn't the strongest Pokemon out there, but the power of Fake Out followed by any priority move coupled with a very strong and fast partner will get the job done. I do have my trepidations about running a Hitmontop without Intimidate, but honestly, if you're trying to kill as fast as possible, you're likely not benefiting a whole lot from Intimidate, and thus, Close Combat (which would require you to survive 1-2 attacks before firing it off).
  11. lucariojr

    lucariojr goodra will hunting
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    Sorry, but I'm having trouble finding 'factors that aren't always present' besides the fact that Chople isn't the only item Tyranitar can run (in which case it's most definitely not going to let you hit it with a fighting move if it can help it).

    I'm also trying to figure out how a fast team would benefit more from Fake Out rather than Spore. Breloom can at least put something to sleep to prevent Trick Room from getting up (though it would be best to have another fake outer), while after a double Protect, Fake Out is burned and their Trick Room gets up without a hitch, assuming it's supported by either Mental Herb or Follow Me, the latter of which is the most dangerous when Amoonguss is doing it.

    Bottom line is that 130 attack>90 attack, and Fake Out and Sucker Punch don't save Technitop from being outclassed. If you made it work, then good for you, but the set isn't good enough in the current metagame for a spot in the analysis.
  12. superspaceshooter

    superspaceshooter

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    The problem with Breloom is that it's very very frail. You may not even get an attack off before it dies. Compare this to Hitmontop, which can Fake Out, presumably unscathed that turn save its Life Orb damage. Then, it can throw out a priority move of your choice, and with its great Special Defense and few weaknesses (Flying isn't common, so only Psychic is worrysome), you may yet again find yourself with another attack. I would think that 3 Technician boosted priority moves (or the already juiced Sucker Punch) would do a lot better than having your Breloom smoked by any number of common weaknesses. And yes, I'm aware that Breloom has the same Technician boosted Mach Punch, but that's rarely going to OHKO anything either, so quantity over quality I'd say.

    I guess what I meant is that your viewing the metagame through a very fine scope that doesn't necessarily represent the whole. I'm not solely worried about Water teams (where obviously a Grass type would be terrific) and Trick Room teams. Must we base all of our 6 Pokemon on the presence of these teams? If not, then Hitmontop truly does stand a chance.
  13. Mizuhime

    Mizuhime Hear my tears all in my tunes
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    Comparing Breloom to Hitmontop is kind of a fail, they both play two different roles, Breloom is very offensive oriented well hitmontop likes to be bulky and supportive Generally I would say offensive hitmontop is a very bad idea. It's better off to have the Close Combat with fighting gem as it's attack, rather then 2 weak priority moves and mach punch. If you want to use something with sucker punch there is better options such as Bisharp, if you want to use mach punch, Use fighting gem Breloom. Once again Hitmontop is better as a supportive pokemon, It's technician set is outclassed and done better by other Pokemon, Every priority move it gets, can be used better by someone else.
  14. Biosci

    Biosci !
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    Yes but another thing about is that it's utility is solely gone after turn 1 or if they lead/have a ghost type. It can even be severely crippled with intimidate cores being so common lately, meaning sure you're firing off priority attacks each turn but the damage you're doing becomes so little that you really question why you're wasting a good ability(and even better utility) on something that gets crippled so easily.

    I'm just really not sold on it's "niche" in the metagame any more when it gets crippled by so much and doesn't do much to actually merit the choice over Intimidate top. Where it is now in the analysis seems just fine to me(and many other QC members).

    Onto the full analysis, I think everything is covered appropriately
    [qc]1/3[/qc]
  15. superspaceshooter

    superspaceshooter

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    I myself wouldn't want Technitop to really be part of an "analysis", since those are based on inbreeding within the testing process. I've been to VGCs, and the metagame is very diverse. Technitop serves a team I've made very well, but that team isn't "popular', so it's no use trying to prep people for it.

    And for those that say anything Hitmontop can do, someone else can do better: This is true. But not all in the same Pokemon. He's not a juggernaut with a mind-blowing stat. He's above average in enough things to pull off the set. There really isn't much competition for a Pokemon that gives all priority with a great body. But it can be argued that Intimitop has direct competition to Dream World Scrafty, which is perhaps a better argument to be pursuing.
  16. lucariojr

    lucariojr goodra will hunting
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    I'm not going to argue the fact that Technitop [apparently] fits into your team, especially because I haven't seen it. I myself somewhat frequently use seemingly outclassed Pokemon if the team calls for it, which is why stuff like Technitop goes into Other Options, where people are reminded of its existence should they be looking for that particular niche.

    As for Hitmontop vs. Scrafty, the short answer on this is that they fill different roles and are different enough that they really aren't competing with each other. As such, this isn't the place to compare the two, but feel free to make a topic about it in the VGC subforum.

    I'll stamp this when the set comments for the standard support is written. :)
  17. superspaceshooter

    superspaceshooter

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    Don't get me wrong, I feel gross trying to use a Hitmontop as an offensive weapon, I just wanted its voice heard.

    Could I get a link? I'm very bad with forums...
  18. lucariojr

    lucariojr goodra will hunting
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    qc: 1/3

    e: whoop its actually 2

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