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Quality Control [2013] Thundurus (Writing)

Discussion in 'Past VGC Analyses' started by lucariojr, May 11, 2013.

  1. lucariojr

    lucariojr goodra will hunting
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    [​IMG]
    Writing this up based on Tobes's skeleton.

    [Overview]

    <p>Thundurus's Incarnate forme is a bit of an oddball. Contrary to what it stats would have you believe, Thundurus is most often seen as a bulky Prankster user, possessing key moves such as Thunder Wave and Swagger to check Swift Swimmers and other lightning fast Pokemon thanks to Prankster's priority boost. Even with little investment, it still packs a punch with STAB Thunderbolt working off a 125 base Special Attack, and although it can't OHKO anything with a bulky set, it's more than defensive enough with the right investment to stick around long enough to actually follow through on 3 or 2HKOs even with two Pokemon attacking it at once. Although it is weak to Rock Slides, especially from the likes of Excadrill and Tyranitar, Thundurus's ability to spread paralysis, fish for Confusion and/or Paralysis hax, and still maintain some offensive pressure ensures that this ever-impressive Genie can never be duplicated.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Specially Defensive
    move 1: Thunder Wave
    move 2: Thunderbolt
    move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Flying
    move 4: Taunt / Substitute / Swagger
    item: Sitrus Berry / Electric Gem
    ability: Prankster
    nature: Calm
    evs: 164 HP / 8 Def / 56 SpA / 252 SpD / 28 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Bulky Paralysis support, Prankster Thunder Wave is annoying
    • Tbolt STAB is obvious
    • HP Ice to hit Dragons or HP Flying as a good secondary STAB that hits Grass-types harder
    • Taunt and Swagger can be used to disrupt the opponent, and Swagger can be used to pump teammates with Lum or Persim Berries.
    • Substitute functions sort of like Protect here due to priority, blocks status, syngerizes well with Sitrus Berry
    <p>Specially Defensive Thundurus is by far the most common Thundurus-I you will ever see. Thanks to Thunder Wave slowing everything down by about (look up this number later... i think it's -75%???), which is more than enough to slow down even the most agile Pokemon to the point where they are easily out-sped by lumbering tanks such as Tyranitar. The key to this set's success, however, lies in how bulky it can be with the right investment, which means Thundurus will more often than not be able to spread paralysis to half the opponent's team. Taunt helps in this endeavor, as it blocks Safeguard, but more importantly, it allows Thundurus to completely halt most setup, most notably Trick Room and stat-boosting moves such as Quiver Dance. Substitute punishes opponents for being too complacent about Thundurus, making it even harder to KO


    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • EV Spread lets you live Dragon Gem Draco Meteors from Timid Latios 93.75% of the time, Terrakion's Rock Slide, and (88% of the time), Electric Gem Thunder from Thundurus-T. HP EVs not maximized to reduce Sandstorm damage. Outspeeds Jolly Breloom.
    • HP Flying (31/31/31/30/30/30) spread: 164 HP / 4 Def / 60 SpA / 248 SpD / 32 Spe. (30/30/30/30/30/31) Spread: 168 HP / 8 Def / 60 SpA / 248 SpD / 28 Spe (same stats)
    • Sitrus Berry helps survivability. Electric Gem can be used for a powerful hit. Leftovers is an option if Sitrus needs to be used elsewhere.
    • Protect
    • Grass Knot
    • Partner this with stuff that wants slowed opponents. Garchomp, Metagross, Tyranitar, etc.
    • Doesn't like Terrakion or Tyranitar; Intimidate and/or Fighting types like Hitmontop / own Terrakion / Heracross are appreciated.
    • Fake Out support: Hitmontop, Infernape, etc

    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Thunder Wave
    move 2: Thunderbolt
    move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Flying
    move 4: Substitute / Taunt / Swagger
    item: Electric Gem / Focus Sash
    ability: Prankster
    nature: Timid
    evs: 8 HP / 248 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • More offensively-inclined option
    • Tbolt / Twave obvious
    • Hidden Powers for obvious reasons
    • Substitute for a little protection
    • Taunt / Swagger can disrupt opponents; Swagger to aid teammates that abuse it
    • See previous set's AC about teammates
    • Helping Hand (Politoed, etc)

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • Electric Gem for a very strong initial hit
    • Charti Berry to take Rock Slides
    • Grass Knot
    • Protect

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Thunderbolt / Thunder
    move 2: Hidden Power Flying
    move 3: Grass Knot
    move 4: Volt Switch
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Prankster
    nature: Timid
    evs: 8 HP / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
    ivs: 30 HP / 2 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 31 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Catches opponents off guard due to repeated powerful hits. Advantages over Thundurus-T are speed (outpacing Latios, Garchomp, Terrakion, etc.) and surprise value.
    • Tbolt for generic STAB, Thunder wrecks things on rain
    • HP Flying for secondary STAB
    • Grass Knot smashes Gastrodon, Tyranitar, etc
    • Volt Switch to get out of a bad situation while doing chip damage

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • HP Ice
    • Prankster options (Thunder Wave, Taunt, etc)
    • Goodstuffs for teammates
    • Helping Hand
    • Fighting-types
    • Politoed if using Thunder

    [Other Options]
    • Physically Defensive
    • Rain Dance
    • Thunder
    • Discharge
    • Embargo
    • Defiant Physical with Wild Charge (shitty gimmick)

    [Checks and Counters]
    • Excadrill
    • Tyranitar, Terrakion
    • Mamoswine, Weavile
    • Scarf Abomasnow
    • Scarf Cloyster
    • Lum Kingdra


    skeleton (open)
    [Overview]

    • Prankster T-Wave
    • Prankster is useful for other stuff like Taunt / Swagger / Protect
    • Excellent offensive complement that can also screw over the opponent's support
    • Strong and fast, but can also be fairly bulky with appropriate investment; Speed loss isn't too crippling because of Prankster
    • Pretty good movepool

    [SET]
    name: Specially Defensive
    move 1: Thunder Wave
    move 2: Thunderbolt
    move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Flying
    move 4: Taunt / Substitute / Swagger
    item: Sitrus Berry / Electric Gem
    ability: Prankster
    nature: Calm
    evs: 164 HP / 8 Def / 56 SpA / 252 SpD / 28 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Bulky Paralysis support, Prankster Thunder Wave is annoying
    • Tbolt STAB is obvious
    • HP Ice to hit Dragons or HP Flying as a good secondary STAB that hits Grass-types harder
    • Taunt and Swagger can be used to disrupt the opponent, and Swagger can be used to pump teammates with Lum or Persim Berries.
    • Substitute functions sort of like Protect here due to priority, blocks status, syngerizes well with Sitrus Berry

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • EV Spread lets you live Dragon Gem Draco Meteors from Timid Latios 93.75% of the time, Terrakion's Rock Slide, and (88% of the time), Electric Gem Thunder from Thundurus-T. HP EVs not maximized to reduce Sandstorm damage. Outspeeds Jolly Breloom.
    • HP Flying (31/31/31/30/30/30) spread: 164 HP / 4 Def / 60 SpA / 248 SpD / 32 Spe. (30/30/30/30/30/31) Spread: 168 HP / 8 Def / 60 SpA / 248 SpD / 28 Spe (same stats)
    • Sitrus Berry helps survivability. Electric Gem can be used for a powerful hit. Leftovers is an option if Sitrus needs to be used elsewhere.
    • Protect
    • Grass Knot
    • Partner this with stuff that wants slowed opponents. Garchomp, Metagross, Tyranitar, etc.
    • Doesn't like Terrakion or Tyranitar; Intimidate and/or Fighting types like Hitmontop / own Terrakion / Heracross are appreciated.
    • Fake Out support: Hitmontop, Infernape, etc

    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Thunder Wave
    move 2: Thunderbolt
    move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Flying
    move 4: Substitute / Taunt / Swagger
    item: Electric Gem / Focus Sash
    ability: Prankster
    nature: Timid
    evs: 8 HP / 248 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • More offensively-inclined option
    • Tbolt / Twave obvious
    • Hidden Powers for obvious reasons
    • Substitute for a little protection
    • Taunt / Swagger can disrupt opponents; Swagger to aid teammates that abuse it
    • See previous set's AC about teammates
    • Helping Hand (Politoed, etc)

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • Electric Gem for a very strong initial hit
    • Charti Berry to take Rock Slides
    • Grass Knot
    • Protect

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Thunderbolt / Thunder
    move 2: Hidden Power Flying
    move 3: Grass Knot
    move 4: Volt Switch
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Prankster
    nature: Timid
    evs: 8 HP / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
    ivs: 30 HP / 2 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 31 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Catches opponents off guard due to repeated powerful hits. Advantages over Thundurus-T are speed (outpacing Latios, Garchomp, Terrakion, etc.) and surprise value.
    • Tbolt for generic STAB, Thunder wrecks things on rain
    • HP Flying for secondary STAB
    • Grass Knot smashes Gastrodon, Tyranitar, etc
    • Volt Switch to get out of a bad situation while doing chip damage

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • HP Ice
    • Prankster options (Thunder Wave, Taunt, etc)
    • Goodstuffs for teammates
    • Helping Hand
    • Fighting-types
    • Politoed if using Thunder

    [Other Options]
    • Physically Defensive
    • Rain Dance
    • Thunder
    • Discharge
    • Embargo
    • Defiant Physical with Wild Charge (shitty gimmick)

    [Checks and Counters]
    • Excadrill
    • Tyranitar, Terrakion
    • Mamoswine, Weavile
    • Scarf Abomasnow
    • Scarf Cloyster
    • Lum Kingdra
  2. Agonist

    Agonist Minutes become hours when you wait, hope and regret
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    Defiant is really bad, to the point where it shouldn't even really be mentioned.
  3. Biosci

    Biosci !
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    Defiant is there for novelty really, I don't think I care about it being there.

    Anyway, since I already gave most of my feedback on IRC I'll approve this. Just make sure on the bulky spread to specify what you're doing exactly, like outspeeding Jolly Breloom and what you're EVd to live specifically.

    [qc]1/3[/qc]
  4. lucariojr

    lucariojr goodra will hunting
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    looks good to me, though you should provide a slightly different spread for defensive thundurus for hidden power flying.

    [​IMG]
    QC Approved 2/3
  5. JRank

    JRank
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    252 SpA Dragon Gem Latios Draco Meteor vs. 164 HP / 252+ SpD Thundurus: 148-175 (84.57 - 100%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO

    Either specify that it doesn't always live DMeteors (Modest has a 62.5% chance to OHKO, and Modest Hydreigon has a 43.5% chance), or put the Defense EVs in HP to live Timid DMeteors 100% of the time, shown below:

    252 SpA Dragon Gem Latios Draco Meteor vs. 172 HP / 252+ SpD Thundurus: 148-175 (84.09 - 99.43%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    If you run HP Flying on the specially defensive set (assuming an IV spread of 30/30/30/30/30/31, which I think is the most common), you need 192 HP EVs to guarantee survival.

    I'd also put Sub before Swagger on the defensive set, because Swagger is only really a good idea when you have teammates to use it on, and Sub has more situations where it would be useful if you don't have anything on your team to Swagger. (but I'm biased because I have a really low opinion of people who use Swagger as a disruption tool and I don't want people to read analyses and think running it purely for using it on the opponent is a good idea)

    EDIT: @R_Inanimate, ok I didn't know that (although it would've been nice if it was mentioned in the OP). In that case I guess it should just be stated that it won't always live a Timid DGem DMeteor.
  6. R Inanimate

    R Inanimate Grasp the earth, Grasp the World.
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    -The reason for having 175HP is to reduce the damage taken from Sandstorm, adding an additional 8HP EVs would defeat the purpose of this. Speaking of which, it's probably something that should be mentioned in the analysis, as to why we are maxing out the SpDef first and not the HP.

    -I believe Focus Sash is worth mentioning for an Offense Thundurus-I, provided that you aren't running Sub.
  7. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
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    All of this has been added, thank you. I went with the HP Flying IV spread of 31/31/31/30/30/30 though, since it nets a bonus point in Special Attack in comparison to the other IV spread.

    Right, my mistake.
  8. Biosci

    Biosci !
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    No, it's 30 in Special Attack either way. The decision is between the extra IVs in HP and Def or the extra IV in Speed.
  9. R Inanimate

    R Inanimate Grasp the earth, Grasp the World.
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    Thundurus is one of those Pokemon that have been pretty well established over the course of the evolution of the VGC metagame. With those few corrections, the analysis covers the options quite well and should be ready to be written.

    [​IMG]
    QC Approved 3/3
  10. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    What's the purpose of the Def, SpA and SPe EVs in the bulky Thundurus set? I know there's a purpose behind them, but it's not stated in the analysis, and your typical reader would guess they're just random numbers without an explanation, or decide to have a 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe spread as the extra HP would more than compensate for the extra sandstorm damage.

    EDIT: I guess I missed the Def and Spe EV mentions. The thing that's concerning me is that you could max HP / SpD to survive those same hits even without the Def and SpD investment, and with that much HP, the extra sandstorm damage doesn't matter that much (you'll have 186 HP, which isn't far off from the next SS number of 191 HP). Unless the extra SpA EVs have a purpose that is.
  11. Biosci

    Biosci !
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    He states the purpose right here(Though I guess he forgot to mention what the SpA EVs are for)

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