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Discussion in 'Battle Spot' started by TheMantyke, Mar 25, 2014.
I use my personal Yveltal (don't ask; it's a secret) or have Mewtwo use Me First.
tbh I'd just counter Kangaskhan the way I always have: Rocky Helmet, Ghosts, burn, damage. Stuff like Gourgeist is good because it can run Colbur Berry to beat Crunch and has the defense to take another should WoW miss; it also has moves like Shadow Sneak and Seed Bomb to beat out weakened Mewtwo and Pokémon like Rotom-W. Sableye is also great because of priority Recover and WoW, meaning that even in the event of a miss it can heal up and try again. It also does a chunk with Foul Play: 0- Atk Sableye Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 166-196 (40 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
However, it's still 2HKOed by Earthquake if Kang isn't burned.
I think people are so excited over the new toys, like NixHex said, that they're forgetting that the rest of the Kalos dex still exists. We still get Sableye. We still get the Grass/Ghosts. We still get Ferrothorn and we still get Meowstic. Kangaskhan may be hard to beat but it isn't unbeatable.
As much as I don't like the presence of Mewtwo and Xerneas (Yveltal has plenty of checks despite its bulk imo), I've always preferred singles and I finally have a Wi-Fi tournament to not feel apathetic about.
Ferrothorn is a decent check to Mega Kanga while Garchomp can be decent revenging, also a few months back people ran Rocky Helmet on random things just for Kanga as well. From Rocky Helmet, it costs 1/3 of its health per move. I question whether it's worth using Fake Out in singles because of this health cost. It would be better to run EQ so you have a non-contact move as well as your strongest move vs Sableye & Klefki, Hammer Arm for power to beat Ferrothorn and friends, or Crunch so you don't have to play mindgames against opposing Ghost types which very often carry WoW. Fake Out is too easy to outplay in singles. Instead of running another filler that would help out versus some of the paltry threats against Kanga, you instead run a situational move that delays Kanga's sweep by one turn; the only thing I concede that it would really help against is Rotom, which you only have a 6% chance of OHKOing if it is a neutral nature and hasn't invested in defense. If you need chipping damage, then I prefer to boost. Also, Adamant Kanga OHKOs Mewtwo-Y.
This isn't in any way saying that Mega Kanga isn't strong. Hell yes it is. I run it myself. It's absurd in every way.
Mewtwo X sounds appealing but it is crippled due to lack of tutors, at least as a sweeper. Your strongest physical STABs are Brick Break / Psycho Cut complimented by Return, EQ, and Stone Edge....yuck. The more I talk about this, the more I'm convinced that running a defensive set is the best route for Mewtwo X. If you're just going special, regular Mewtwo outdamages Mewtwo X with LO or Specs; too lazy to do calcs on mixed but running mixed Mewtwo X is all about how much you are willing to sacrifice to run shit Brick Break or generic unSTAB'd options.
Any counters for Mega Lucario?
I'd also run an pokemon with access to aura sphere/aerial ace/feint attack etc. Minimize driftblim setups are gonna be pretty common. Actually, with geomancy Xerneas, an unaware Quagsire may not be a bad option
"Counter" is an outdated concept, the game has evolved to such a point where very few Pokemon have true counters.
Nitpicking aside, Mega Lucario is checked by its fragility. All the allowed ubers in the format check Luke - Mewtwo is faster and OHKOs, Xerneas wins if it gets Geomancy off, is Scarfed, or Luke has yet to Evolve, and Aura Sphere fails to 2HKO bulky Yveltal. Talonflame can also revenge. Charizard Y and Aegislash resist both STABs. Regular Luke has trouble switching into a lot. It's all about playing smart against it but it has plenty of checks among the top Pokemon.
Also, please don't run Quagsire vs Xerneas. It can't do jackshit against it: 252 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 102-121 (50.4 - 59.9%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Kangaskhan is easier to deal with when it is not in the position to set up PuP without retaliation (that's why we decided against using Tyranitar). In a lead matchup (almost 1/3 of the game) Geomancy Xerneas can setup on Kangaskhan, Mawile forces her out with Intimidate and LO-Timid-Yveltal can 2HKOit with Oblivion Wing + Sucker Punch while surviving Kangaskhan's Return + Sucker Punch thanks to OB (lots of number crunching but Yveltal wins when Kanga does not crit). She is bulky but at the same time rather frail in the sense that while she is able to take a Focus Blast from the box legendaries, neutral hits tend to 2HKO her a lot. This is why we would run some kind of support for her.
My sister decided to have Jumpluff in her team. Compared to Smeagle who is slower than Adamant Kangaskhan and therefore not a very appealing choice, this one is the next best thing with actual stats. Reflect, Sleep Power, Encore and Memento is everything it needs for setup. The best thing is that it doesn't even need a Focus Sah in order to survive the most dangerous hits (but it is still useful in the case Sleep Powder misses).
^ Although Jumpluff is an interesting idea, a Focus Sash won't save you from Parental Bond.
After spending the afternoon on Showdown April Friendly mode, I've been wracking my brain to come up with a Sp tank counter to Xerneas and MMewtwo. So far the best Kalos pokemon I've found is probably Dragalge due to poison typing nullifying her fairy weakness. Other than that, I've just been using Aegislash to kill Mewtwo and getting lucky with scarf trick or prankster taunt on Xerneas.
Basically everyone I've come across thus far after around 50 games is running more or less the same team - Mewtwo, Xerneas, Yveltal, Aegislash, Talonflame, Rotom. Lots of Geng and Kang about too but nowhere near as much as the aforementioned.
Say, how many Speed EVs should Xerneas have?
I had a look and uninvested Modest Xerneas hits 468 at +2, which sits 8 points ahead of 252+ unboosted Ninjask (for reference). With this in mind, it's probably be best to have a look at what you need to outspeed before you boost up; usually this wouldn't be relevant as every common Pokémon is either faster, but outsped after Geomancy or slower in both cases. Possibly run 12 Speed EVs to outrun 0 Spd Adamant Mega Kangaskhan by one point, while also speed creeping bulky Yveltal? To be honest, I'm really not seeing the point in investing too heavily in it as most things around Xern's speed tier will be running max investment (and are 100 or above).
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Jumpluff: 157-186 (86.2 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Not strong enough; also, you are faster and can put her to sleep. The Sash is for stray Ice Beams from Mewtwo.
Hey guys, the sign ups for the April Friendly have started, get on it now before its too late!
Just sign in here, and click on the "Online Competitions" button to the left. Then sign up from there, and download the player ID via battle spot. Just remember, you don't have to register your battle box until next week, so you still got some time to practice!
Speaking of practice, currently I've been giving Klefki a try in the few practice matches I've had. I've been using a Specially Defensive set with Thunder Wave and Light Screen, with the last two moves to be undetermined. The reason I'm interested in Klefki is that it can check both Yveltal and to a lesser extent, Xerneas. If you use Play Rough, you can break Xerneas's substitutes (which is handy because I recall swagger Klefki being rather popular prebank, so I can totally see some Japanese players using Sub Xerneas), allowing you to Thunder Wave it. Also, Yveltal takes 44.7 - 53.7% (Hasty and Mild actually get 2HKOed) from Play Rough, and Yveltal does NOT like Thunder Wave and Light Screen! I've also used Foul Play, which is nice to punishing set up Pokémon like Mega Kangaskhan, but losing to Sub Xerneas is a total bummer. I've also used Reflect and Light Clay, which can be pretty handy for giving Pokémon like Yveltal even more surviability, but choosing between Play Rough and Foul Play has been pretty tough for me, so I'm going to try out a Reflectless Klefki with a different item soon!
Mawile is looking like a dark horse option due to checking the trifecta of ubers (yeah really Mawile a dark horse but there is a lot of ridiculous shit allowed). Xerneas is OHKO'd by Iron Head and can only respond with a paltry +2 Focus Miss which admittedly has a ~31% chance to OHKO 252 HP Mawile (factors in accuracy). Granted, Specs also 2HKOs 252 HP Mawile unless it is stuck on Flash Cannon for whatever reason but there isn't very much that can weather Xerneas' attacks and proceed to KO it while still remaining generally viable. I don't really consider HP Fire/Ground to be a possibility due to this being the cartridge.
LO Yveltal does upwards of 70% with Focus Miss, but unlike Xerneas will not have any boosting capabilities. Defensive variants flatout lose.
Mewtwo needs Sub, spot-on prediction, or more importantly, WoW to win. Mawile shits all over regular and Mewtwo Y variants unless someone is crazy enough to put Fire Blast + one of the moves listed above and forces a mindgame with the opponent. You only get one shot though, because Play Rough OHKOs Mewtwo Y and does 88% minimum on regular Mewtwo. Mewtwo X gets a bit more leeway due to not fearing an imminent Sucker Punch, but loses if it doesn't have Fire Blast or WoW. On that note, seriously people, do not underestimate defensive Mewtwo. Stalltwo is still one of the best lures in the game, you destroy the aforementioned Mawile, Bisharp, Kanga, Garchomp, and more.
The downside of Mawile is that its base form is so weak that you can't really switch into anything. QQ. But it can be a little safety net if things go south.
On a side note Cobalion would fit sosososo well into this meta but alas we'll probably never see it unless the rest of the not-box legendaries and events are going around.
Just what are people running on MewtwoX? If it has to be caught in Kalos, it seems to limit the movepool on the physical side quite a bit.
You don't have to run a physical set. Hell, even with tutors (i.e. regular ubers) it's liable to go mixed or some other route. Mewtwo X can do a run of the mill special set that is weaker than Mewtwo Y or LO Mewtwo but trades a Dark weakness for a Fairy one. It's not that bad because Aura Sphere gets STAB at least so your dual STAB is quite good (doesn't OHKO Kanga though, ew). The main reason to run this is to still have something reasonably powerful but you don't have to fear Sucker Punch garbage anymore.
At first I thought Stalltwo would be better with MMX than regular Mewtwo but with Talonflame and Xerneas everywhere, the added Fighting type weaknesses ironically hurt more than they help.
You can also try a mixed set along the lines of Psystrike / Brick Break / Stone Edge / EQ. Brick Break isn't really for damage as it is for breaking screens. Yuck, it's pretty sobering that its STAB sucks on the physical end.
The problem with running Mawile as a counter to legendaries (and considering how good he is in this case, it's a small problem) is that anyone running Xerneas will be running either HP fire, or a different pokemon to counter Aegislash, and other steels, but mostly Aegislash. HP Fire will only OHKO after Geomancy but Iron Head from MMawile will easily OHKO so as long as you don't swap into it, Mawile still wins.
Second problem is as you mentioned, WoW; Talonflame and Rotom-W (just to name a few) are everywhere from what I've seen in the practice games and easily outspeed Mawile so if they predict your switch, you're screwed, or if you don't switch out of WoW, you're screwed because Garchomp, Kang and MewtwoX are also everywhere and all can eat a burned Play Rough and murder you with EQ.
That said, I still agree that Mawile will win far more matches than he loses overall in this competition and is probably the strongest contender for most valuable non-legendary mega outside of Ubers. I, for one, will be using him.
You are limited to Kalos movepool, yes. Kind of sucks because you can't run the standard drain punch/bulk up set and what remains is very.. Well, not amazing. I've heard people talk about how Sub is valuable over a coverage move but honestly, I'm finding that people just aren't that scared of Mewtwo and unless he has something that will SE you or has a bulk up or two, they won't swap and he isn't tanky enough for sub to absorb. Generally speaking, the set mentioned above by Age of Kings is solid for a Kalos build and he's dead right - Brick Break is a horrible stab, but unless you want to run Low Kick or something even worse, there's not a huge amount of options which is why I suppose people take bulk up or sub in that extra slot rather than a mediocre STAB. He has plenty of utility with things such as Recover, just no super power/cc/drain punch/PuP/etc.
This has been mentioned before, but since this competition is on cart, Hidden Power Fire Xerneas is likely to be VERY uncommon, because its a bitch to soft reset for!
There is no real reason to run a mixed Mewtwo-X; Brick Break outdamages Aura Sphere by a huge margin and nobody will ever make us using STAB Focus Blast just in order to KO Kangaskhan while Psystrike isn't strong enough to pull weight against Geomancy Xerneas anyway (X always loses).
In our opinion the most effective Mewtwo-Xs will run a simple Bulk Up sets alongside with Brick Break, Earthquake and Stone Edge. BU is the main selling point of Mewtwo-X because it allows it to OHKO its usual checks at +1, like 252/0 Yveltal, Kangaskhan and Aegislash.
There is a huge difference between a check and a counter, please read this article because the distinction is extremely important. You spent a lot of text detailing why Mawile wasn't a counter which I openly admitted, my point was its value comes as a check. I specifically said Mawile was a check and while yes, all of those things mentioned can beat Mawile....in the most common conditions, Mawile will win. Xerneas and Yveltal require absurdly advantageous situations (and moves with shit accuracy) to win, whereas Mewtwo needs a super specific situation or certain moves, the most common of which was only used on 32% of Mewtwos in the 1695 and 34% in the 1760 stats last month. I think Mawile's a good idea because it requires the least amount of teamslots possible while having the widest beneficial effect; it's not going to win 100% of the time but it will win a lot more than 50%.
This isn't the simulator, HP Fire and Ground Xerneas might as well not exist in-game, the odds are near zero for a competitive one due to the forced 31s making them more difficult to reset for. There is a 50% chance to get a 31 in SpA, SpD or Speed which nullifies all HP Fire spreads (which require 30s in SpA and Speed) or HP Ground (which requires 30 SpD), then factor in the 50% chance to get the desired even or odd Atk, and then the 50% chance to get the nature you want. So at maximum, there is a 12.5% chance that a specific Hidden Power spread even has a chance to be generated, so 25 out of every 200 resets are even meaningful. I could continue to go into the odds of getting semi-decent IVs in all stats or do proper math with all the other conditional values that I didn't go into for simplicity's sake (i.e. HP Fire needs 30s in BOTH SpA and Speed), but I hope that I don't have to continue to break down statistics to make the point that they are not worth preparing for. If you see one, a regular Xerneas will probably win because the HP Xerneas will likely have some lackluster stat. The potential loss of brain cells and stats aren't worth the situational uses.
Nobody is going to keep Mawile in on Rotom-W and Talonflame, and Mawile is certainly not alone in the not-liking-WoW department. But Mawile's power is such that no, it's not so easy to eat a Play Rough. Talonflame is safe because it resists both of Mawile's STABs, but Rotom-W is going to take a not-insignificant chunk (43.9 - 51.5%), Garchomp can't switch in (83.1 - 97.8%), and neither can Mewtwo X (80.1 - 95%; regular takes 43.6 - 51.3% on the switch-in).
tl;dr: Mawile steamrolls
I should've known better than to read this thread. I was feeling pretty optimistic about my team, but all the doom 'n gloom about all these threats is really bumming me out. And now I realize that I really have no way to counter any of them...
Where from there do I sign up? All I see on the competition page is stuff for a competition that's already over. Nothing about the April Friendly.
you don't see where it says
maybe the link will work for you
I didn't, however it's because I somehow got signed out, not sure why, I never closed my browser or anything. Oh well, thanks for helping :)
Practice on the simulator and don't pity yourself. All you can do to get better is practice, practice, practice. For this reason, I consider myself of mediocre skill amongst competitive players, because I don't practice enough.
Countering is a dated concept. It has been impossible to counter every single threat on a team may face since at least gen 4, that is the price paid for an ever growing amount of Pokemon (now 720? and only like 400 or so are allowed in this tournament) You just need to learn how to improvise during a game and outplay your opponent.
Sorry for the double post, but just as a reminder, Xerneas, Yveltal, and Mewtwo are allowed....I started practicing on the sim today and got bitched at by a few little kids who weren't aware of this.
Also if someone can please lend me a good Timid Mewtwo, preferably untrained....please drop me a line. I can hook you up with my 31/31/26/31/27/31 Timid Xerneas in exchange.
P.S. getting wrecked by Klefki and Ditto. fuck Ditto lol