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Online Competition 2017 No Holds Barred

Discussion in 'Cartridge Formats' started by cant say, Aug 1, 2017.

  1. Leader Wallace

    Leader Wallace

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    I see your point. Although I like Pheromosa in the way that it's a decently good answer to Lele + Deoxys cores, and it actually pairs very well with these mons, as it improves the matchup against opposing psyspam teams. I run focus sash on mine so it can survive one espeed.
  2. Theorymon

    Theorymon Let's a do the truffle shuffle!
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    So I reached #1 on Showdown after 46 battles.

    lemme brag a bit with an image before I get serious (open)

    [​IMG]


    OK back to business: It's still early and I've been facing quite a few inexperienced players (A lot of people leaving Shaymin-S in on Mamoswine for some reason...), but I think I got some new insights from playing almost 50 battles!

    -Mamoswine is EXCELLENT! It's not just Ice Sharding annoying stuff, Icicle Spear is great for Deoxys-A and Zygarde. Marshadow can be troublesome, but even that takes a heavy hit if Mamoswine has its sash intact. This is probably my favorite Stealth Rocker right now!

    -Unfortunately, I'm not very impressed with Alolan Ninetales currently, as Moonblast doesn't actually usually OHKO Marshadow after hail damage. Also, unlike Mamoswine, Alolan Ninetales is pretty weak otherwise and is total Magearna bait.

    -I'm still loving double Marshadow. Currently I'm using a sash one and a Kasib berry one to help me out against opposing Marshadow when Stealth Rock is up.

    -Tapu Fini is even better than I was expecting. It kicks the hell out of most Marshadow running around, and is one of the best Blaziken checks available too. Misty Terrain is helpful against Psychic Spam teams as well, and those rare Swagger Marshadows that are pretty scary otherwise.

    -I saw a stall team! It was pretty much standard Battle Spot Stall with Chansey / Skarmory and the other usual suspects, except they were using Mega Sableye and Zygarde. Sableye does pretty well against Deoxys-A and Marshadow, and Zygarde is just stupidly bulky. Magearna is a problem, but I imagine Chansey is good enough for that!

    -I lost to a strange bulky Marshadow with Force Palm. I wonder if that has any potential?

    - I've been testing out a strange Pokemon for use with Magearna's Trick Room: Volcanion! The idea is simple: I wanted something that can do okish against Magearna (yes I realize some carry Thunderbolt) while checking Tapu Fini. It seems to be doing alright thus far. I use a Quiet set with Life Orb and Steam Eruption / Sludge Wave / Flamethrower / Hidden Power Ice. Man SRing a Quiet HP Ice 0 Spe Volcanion sounds like a nightmare though...

    - I got an idea to test for Shaymin-S after seeing all those people strangely leaving it in against Mamoswine: I wonder about a Sash Skymin with Quick Attack? I remember using that way back in gen 4 Ubers as a surprise, and I bet it'd shock Mamoswine provided Seed Flare hits!
  3. Marzbar

    Marzbar

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    Would Ice Shard and Focus Sash improve Ninetails' matchup against Marshadow? Assuming they don't predict it and use Shadow Sneak? (And then you could predict that and switch in a ghost resist)

    I'm testing an Assault Vest Volcanion to counter Magearna. Thunderbolt is only a 3HKO and Fire Blast is guaranteed OHKO against any offensive Magearna set
  4. BlazingBarrager

    BlazingBarrager

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    I'm also thinking Heatran is a good check to Magearna as it walls it completely and just blast it with Fire attacks or Earth Power.
  5. ThickFatAzumarill

    ThickFatAzumarill

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    All right, since everyone is doing it, lemme share my thoughts on the comp until now, as someone who made it to number 1 and still is top 5 on the ladder.

    I understand Theorymon (open)

    Online comp top 1.png Online comp top 3.png


    - Set up is not only unnecessary, I think it's even harmful to your team. This comp is too fast paced to waste turns on that, and Marshadow can easily steal your boosts and reverse sweep you. There are some exceptions, however. Speed Boost Blaziken and Shift Gear Magearna are still very good.

    - Bulky Glare Zygarde is the goat. Paralyzing Scarfers and Dragon Dance mons is invaluable, and it helps your sweeper in a way that doesn't let Marshadow steal it and become even scarier.

    - Skymin is not a threat if you have the right tools to deal with it. Bulky Zygarde and Magearna can both take several hits before either paralyzing it, set up Trick Room or outright KO it. Just watch out for SubSeed (imo the best set it can run).

    - Quoting Theorymon: Mamoswine is amazing! Ice/Ground coverage is great against Zygarde and Magearna, and it's an excellent SR setter.

    - Trick Room is an amazing option to deal with all the fast mons in the format. Be sure to have something against it if you're using a fast team.

    - Even though there's no Species Clause in the format, I think that running multiple of the same mon can turn into a liability if the opponent has multiple ways to deal with a threat. That being said, why would you bring both your Marshadows when the opponent can deal with them "easily"?
    BlazingBarrager and The Squash like this.
  6. BlazingBarrager

    BlazingBarrager

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    How exactly do you run Mamoswine? As I said I currently have Heatran who completely walls Magearna, but it's also a poor match-up against Zygarde.
  7. Siggu

    Siggu

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    Well, I've looked at what I have right now and this is what I've got:

    Deoxys (needs a Cap to patch its horrible Speed IV)
    Blaziken
    Timid Magearna (also needs Caps)
    Power Construct Zygarde (I'll have to disassemble it as it's Careful)

    I'll have to think of a Mega and a sixth Pokemon.
  8. Theorymon

    Theorymon Let's a do the truffle shuffle!
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    I usually lead with a Focus Sash set using Earthquake / Ice Shard / Icicle Spear / Stealth Rock. Icicle Spear is important, since it lets you OHKO Deoxys-A through its Focus Sash so it won't win the lead match up. I think Mamoswine can still be useful when not leading though, since Ice / Ground is excellent as usual for coverage.

    Also, while I regained my #1 spot (hehehe), I actually got owned by a a dude using a rain team with Mega Swampert. Marshadow can't steal Swift Swim boosts, and it does pretty well against Magearna too. Wonder how much potential that has? Only thing is, Pelipper probably isn't that good beyond setting up rain and probably OHKOing Marshadow.
  9. Siggu

    Siggu

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    Well, Pelipper's physical defense is decent and I can't simply see Marshadow running Thunder Punch or HP Electric unless rain becomes the most popular playstyle, so it can work, using Hurricane in turn 1 (with the chance Marshadow could KO itself through confusion before KOing Pelipper) and letting Swampert clean afterwards.

    Pelipper @ Damp Rock
    Ability: Drizzle
    EVs: 248 HP / 52 Def / 172 SpA / 32 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Scald
    - Hurricane
    - U-turn
    - Filler (Roost?)

    It's something I've just made up right now, but it ensures Pelipper is never 2HKOed by Marshadow's unboosted Spectral Thief and guarantees an OHKO with Hurricane (unlikely as it is due to Focus Sash. Uninvested deals 77% minimum so I dunno). Leftover EVs could be placed anywhere, not necessarily Speed as, like I said, I've just made it up.
    Ullar, BlazingBarrager and Theorymon like this.
  10. BlazingBarrager

    BlazingBarrager

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    What do you guys think of Char-Y? Theorymon gave me the idea of Flame Charge to use against Marshadow, which wouldn't be able to steal the boost because Charizard is slower. It would also break Sash and Char-Y would outspeed and KO Marsh in return. It can also handle Margeara, though it has to watch out for Thunderbolts.

    Also what EVs should be ran on Mamoswine? I like the idea of it dealing with Zygarde and being a good SR setter.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2017
  11. kato2121

    kato2121

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    COuld you please tell me wich set you use on Blaziken and Deoxys-A?
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2017
  12. TheArrowOfLight

    TheArrowOfLight

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    Thinking of using a PC Zygarde with DD, and replacing outrage with Zen Headbutt because it's going to be Magernea bait after a knockout. still enough power to one shot marshadow (if it comes after the boost) at +1 with LO if it doesn't miss (not including Sash marshadow, and not a bulky set) .. Might also take mega Lopunny with all the praise it's been getting here at being able to take out marshadow and some other threats. :p
    I've been waiting to be able to use Magernea though.. Shift gear Mage is too much fun lol
    Any thoughts on how Scarf Tornadus-T would do? I think it could be a good pivot without Mage around if it's already locked into air slash but still can be effective with U-turn.
    Would test out a few other Pokémon but Showdown says that there's a problem with Zygarde not being able to get Zen Headbutt and power Construct despite being legal in game since the option to use an existing Zygarde and the cells (must be 50% or higher) in the cube only changes Aura break to PC with everything else remaining intact including the ball it's in..
  13. BlazingBarrager

    BlazingBarrager

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    [​IMG]
    This is the team I've been using so far. Some notes...

    Darkrai: Z-Hypnosis, even if it misses, provides Darkrai with a +1 boost in Speed, which allows it to outspeed a number of threats and deal some massive damage. Should Hypnosis hit, it also provides Darkrai a turn to set up Nasty Plot. By that point, even Marshadow wouldn't be able to take Darkrai provided its Sash is broken.

    Celebi: Purely for support, but it does have its niches. Its EV spread allows it to survive a Spectral Thief and, in return, either Paralyze it with Thunder Wave or U-Turn to break Sashes.

    Charizard-Y: This guy is interesting. The EV spread grants it enough bulk to deal with physical threats, especially Marshadow. In fact, this Charizard beats Marshadow with a combination of Flame Charge and Flamethrower under Sun. Since Charizard is slower at first, Spectral Thief won't be able to steal the +1 boost from Flame Charge, which also breaks Sash variants. It can then outrun and KO Marshadow with Flamethrower. Charizard-Y is also a good check to Magearna as it resists both of its STAB moves and can OHKO with a boosted Flamethrower, though it has to be weary of Thunderbolt.

    Thoughts? I didn't know if it was alright to post this here or not so if need be I can move it to the RMT board.
  14. Siggu

    Siggu

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    Seeing as Marshadow is the benchmark for pretty much everything in this tourney, perhaps a more optimal spread for Zygarde would be 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD with an Impish nature.

    This ensures Marshadow's unboosted Ice Punch always deals at least 50% before Power Construct triggers, giving you a more controlled transformation just in case it happens to run the move. Taking into account the HP increase, that unboosted Ice Punch will actually deal 17-27%.

    I said nothing. Forgot to set Technician in the calculator.
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
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  15. BlazingBarrager

    BlazingBarrager

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    That would work. I didn't think of that.
  16. Zukrad

    Zukrad

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    Doesn't Techniccian HP Ice do more damage?
  17. Siggu

    Siggu

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    Oh, right, my bad, I forgot to set Technician :P

    Then the spread isn't actually necessary.
  18. Theorymon

    Theorymon Let's a do the truffle shuffle!
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    A problem I have with HP Ice Marshadow is that it makes its Special Defense lower than its Defense, which means Porygon2 and Genesect get an SpA boost. Believe it or not, Marshadow needs an offensive item to OHKO Porygon2, so you really don't want to get smacked by a boosted Shadow Ball, especially if Trick Room is up!
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
  19. Steel With It

    Steel With It

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    So run Hasty over Naive. Marshadow outprioritises or is immune to all relevant physical priority anyway.
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  20. ThickFatAzumarill

    ThickFatAzumarill

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    Except for opposing Marshadow. Hasty guarantees a OHKO from full health without a boosting item, which is not possible otherwise.
  21. Siggu

    Siggu

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    How?

    252 Atk Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Marshadow: 254-302 (79.1 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Not a worthwhile matchup anyways. Since they are not OHKOing each other (needs a boosting item as unboosted Adamant only OHKOes less than 1/5 of the time), it's a matter of who wins the second speed tie.
  22. ThickFatAzumarill

    ThickFatAzumarill

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    My bad, I should make the calcs befor posting. Still, my point stands. With Hasty, Marshadow needs less prior damage (such as Steal Rocks) before being in range of another Marshadow's Shadow Sneak.
  23. Siggu

    Siggu

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    It just so happens to deal up to 94%. It means it can only OHKO after SR with a max roll.

    Just for comparison's sake:

    252 Atk Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 230-272 (71.6 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  24. ThickFatAzumarill

    ThickFatAzumarill

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    Well, it's not like Marshadow can't be forced out. But Naive is there if you're paranoid with Sneak speed ties just as Hasty is there if you're paranoid about Download.
  25. Old Greg

    Old Greg

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    Serious question, does Marshadow build matter for NA Cartridge players if there isn't an official giveaway before the tournament? Is there a legitimate way to get non-hacked Marshadow to use before the end of the month?

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