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32 turns of stall in the Hail: Walrein

Discussion in 'Stark Mountain' started by Dragontamer, Aug 27, 2007.

  1. Lemmiwinks MkII

    Lemmiwinks MkII

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    My thoughts exactly, which is why I'd seriously consider Knock Off on Tentacruel. It's a shame that it isn't compatible with Rapid Spin, otherwise I am sure you'd have both on it.

    I am well aware that Rapid Spin is important on such a Stealth Rock weak team, however, I'm curious as to how much success you have had in performing this task with Tentacruel considering the large proportion of Stealth Rock users carrying Earthquake. I'm certain you carry Surf to try and scare away Ground types, but the likes of Hippowdon and Swampert would be more than capable of surviving it and OHKOing back, after which your spinner has gone with Stealth Rock either still on the field or easily set up again.

    Another problem might be the inability to deal with Ghosts switching in, especially the defensive ones (Dusknoir and Spiritomb). Here is where I see Knock Off being handy, as I see these Pokemon in particular being a real headache with their ability to exploit your gargantuan HP almost indefinitely until you run out of PP, with Pressure severely limiting the number of times you can attack them. Of course you say you have Roar for such problematic Pokemon, but still you can't rely on that forever. Also, as Obi mentioned, Gyarados is problematic, but I'd imagine Tentacruel being a decent switch in opportunity for it in the opponent's eyes, so Knock Off could be invaluable for later on in the battle should you have no other way of dealing with it.

    Obviously this is just me theorizing with no experience on using this team on Shoddy, so my concerns may be completely unfounded. If they are I apologize. I just wonder what your thought processes were when deciding between the two, whether you found it difficult to come to a decision or simply decided that Rapid Spin was too invaluable to consider dropping.
  2. Dragontamer

    Dragontamer

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    If you're not running Blizzard, you're more or less screwed with Gyarados + Lefties. However, if Gyara doesn't have Stone Edge, you can go toe-to-toe with Gyarados with Surf. It is kinda sad... but you actually get into the situation where too many taunts are dangerous because Gyarados simply can't hurt Walrein, and Walrein continuously gains health in the hail.

    Bulky Gyara with Stone Edge is a counter. I won't deny it.

    I assume my opponent knows that Frosslass carries destiny bond in the first place... it is an awesome move and there is not much else it can do (lol spikes)

    Yeah, that is true, but then I can run 4 more EVs to beat the Skarms who beat my Walrein. I didn't feel like arguing in this direction... and +1 speed is enough to cover the standard Skarm anyway.

    In such a case, Skarm doesn't want to take surf nor Blizzard on your way out. A Skarm at ~60% health doesn't wall that well, especially when most of your team is taking advantage of 100% accurate Blizzard.

    If I could, I'd have Stealth Rocks + Knock Off Gliscor on my team as well... but there are only 6 pokemon. Knock Off would help so much... but would greatly increase the set-up time for this set as well as take away key pokemon.

    Blizzard and Surf on Tentacruel does pretty well actually. If I predict an EQ, Walrein can take the hit. In many cases, common Earthquake users can't even break the sub of Walrein, and I can _protect_ off the damage that happens. <3 +12% health each turn.

    Choice Band Weavile Night Slash / Pursuit. Works like a charm. Also, Dusknoir can't break Walrein's sub with Thunderpunch, and it takes 3 hits for Fire Punch to break the sub. Pain Split doesn't hit through subsitutes so all in all, they can't touch Walrein. The only thing I fear is WoW, Toxic, T-Wave and other various status that can shut-down Walrein pretty severely.

    Hmm... I could run both on Shoddy >_> Lol.

    Rapid Spin on a Hail team just seems like a "must have". Although, I might wanna try testing out knock off.
  3. Lemmiwinks MkII

    Lemmiwinks MkII

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    Sure, but I was actually referring to switching in on the Stealth Rock turn to spin so that none of your team incurs any damage. In those situations, switching back to Walrein straight away in anticipation of Earthquake wouldn't solve the problem as the rocks would still be down with Walrein taking the 25% damage. You did answer my question however, and you don't seem to be running in to such problems at the moment so I see no need for concern in that regard.

    My bad, I thought Pain Split ignores Substitutes. Still, as far as Spiritomb is concerned, many like to carry Taunt, which forces you to use your only attack or switch out, which would be especially problematic with Blizzard, which can only be used four times against it. Weavile also wouldn't be able to OHKO, and risks being burned or put to sleep. Still, it would only be a minor niggle, and not common enough a situation to prepare for meticulously.

    Sure, if you wanna be cheap LOL. I wouldn't get in the habit though as come Competitor you'd have to revert back to the one move. Methinks you were just being humorous.
  4. West

    West

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    Could you please calculate how much damage does a CB Fury Swipes from a max attack Slaking do to this?
  5. COalex

    COalex

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    Do the calc yourself

    For the record, it does 11.06% - 12.98% per hit, up to five hits. It needs two hits to break the Substitute.

    Either way, it's not much of a counter since Walrein can use Protect on it's attacking turn.
  6. Lemmiwinks MkII

    Lemmiwinks MkII

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    According to those numbers it is far more likely to require three hits to break the Substitute, but quite right, this is a non-factor due to Protect being a 100% counter to Slaking.
  7. zomg.itsme

    zomg.itsme

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    i really cant beat wallrein everything i tried failed maybe if i use breloom it will finally stop tormenting me...T_T
  8. Dragontamer

    Dragontamer

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    If it helps, pure water types and Empoleon are the only types who resist Blizzard + Surf, a combo I use over and over in my entire team. Water + Ice is actually a very decent attack combination, especially coupled with the fact that Blizzard has a huge attack power with no drawbacks in hail.

    Again, Rest/Roar Suicune works wonders when Walrein comes out. Rest off the toxic Spikes, Roar Walrein away. Or, come in asleep so the toxic spikes don't hit you and then roar walrein away with either sleeptalk or just plain old roar (only 2 turns of sleep anyway). Suicune is one of the pokemon that gives me the most trouble.

    Toxic Spikes of your own hurt my team very much as well, especially as toxic spikes are eaten up by many common toxic-spikers... or at least they are immune. (Tentacruel, Roserade, Drapion absorb them, and Forretress can spin them away)

    Simply put, any kind of status hurts Walrein. But continuous damage like burn, poison or toxic hurts the strategy the most.

    Rain Dance helps a lot.

    Oh, and contrary to earlier hypothesis... T-Tar is not that big a deal when the toxic spikes and substitute are out. Protect on the first turn... 6 %damage. Substitute on the next turn... and if he's slower the sub will fail, then protect. If he's faster, the substitute will replace the one he just destroyed with Crunch / Stone Edge / whatever. 12% damage. Protect, 18% damage... running total of 36% damage so far. Continue sub/protect as you see fit, and then surf for the win. Its ~30% damage after the sandstorm boost, so if you surf on the 4th turn, that is 24% (toxic) + 30% damage or 54% damage on the last turn. Protect on the 5th (30% damage from toxic) and you've defeated T-Tar or at least forced a switch out.

    So CB T-Tar is no worries unless it comes in when the sub is down.

    About taunt... protect will block the first taunt, and he will not break the substitute if he taunts on the 2nd turn (obviously). Then on the 3rd turn, you use surf. So either way, you are dealing at least 50%+ damage to T-Tar with minimal risks from him. The worst that can happen is dragon dance -> taunt of course, which really does pose a risk to your team. Just switch out to frosslass, hope for a miss... then Destiny bond. Lol.

    Similarly, Taunt + Dragon Dance Gyarados poses a serious threat to a walrein team if Walrein is injured and isn't carrying Blizzard. Dragon dance on the first turn, taunt on the second. Keep dragon dancing, as after the 2nd dragon dance nothing can really stop you except focus sash pokemon (and in this case... focus sash ice pokemon due to the hail). Blizzard on Walrein stops this strategy cold, because I'd use Blizzard on the first turn for some 35%ish damage on BulkyDos as you Dragon Dance / Taunt, Blizzard again as you break the sub or taunt, and then Blizzard a 3rd time for the kill.

    Which is a major advantage to blizzard over Surf mind you. To kill one of the hardest counters to this strategy just like that... Surf has the obvious advantage of doing stuff to more common walls like Magnezone. But I guess you can run Gliscor or something like that.

    EDIT: I should note that Breloom, who practically dies to STAB Blizzard from any of my 4 pokemon touting the move... or weavile ice punch... is not exactly a threat. Lol :-p

    Wait, 5 Pokemon with Blizzard or Ice Punch? Who doesn't have an ice attack? Walrein :-p Even to those who resist, Blizzard is a great attack, and spamming it is the best way for you to get the 10% freeze rate to happen. Not to mention, Switching in a wall who can take Blizzard gives me an openning to switch Walrein or Abomasnow in (Don't underestimate the power of sub-seeding any wall), with perhaps exceptions to Magnezone.
  9. ANinyMouse

    ANinyMouse

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    Coming out of "lurking vacation time" just to say that this thread has been just as interesting as the GrowthTran and ChainChomp threads were back in the day. Deck Knight's idea of using Aerodactyl in sandstorm is also very exciting, to say the least!

    Good job on this thread in general. Seriously, Dragontrainer never once got hot under the collar and has kept this thread going with 11 pages without the discussion totally devolving into dribble. Haha, GrowthTran's thread didn't get that far...

    I'd definitely put this TSH team strategy on my list of "top five teams to bust out before I die or quit."
  10. Aeroblacktyl

    Aeroblacktyl The pizza doesn't scream in the oven! LOL!
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    urgh the problem with most of you guys is your thought mentality. you'll never win against tihs or ANY OTHER strategy if all you think about 'how will i stop this.' the best counter to tihs is. 'how does he stop me' see, if you allow people to set up stealth rock spikes, toxic spikes, burn every flyer, of course you're going to be in deep shit. however, if you're over here swords dancing your ass up, no one is giong to be trying to set the things out.

    part of being an actual good battler is executing your game plan. if you can't pull your team off, than you're biting into the other person's team. best defense is good offense. holds true for the other way, but it's so much faster and opinionatingly, funner, to be on the offensive. for example, if he set out all 3 spikes, of course your tar isn't going to do shit. however, if you've got tar out on turn 1, already rock polishing, substituting or dragon dancing or just straight attacking, what's there to worry about? you only lose not cause you have a weakness to a hail team, but a weakness in not knowing how to play.
  11. ANinyMouse

    ANinyMouse

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    Hell yes, MoP. I'd stick this post in my sig but unfortunately it wouldn't fit ;]
  12. Itakio

    Itakio

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    No-guard machamp is a counter. Moves have their normal accuracy as a percent to hit through protect. That means even if Walrein has started the protect/substitute engine, machamp could come in at any time he wanted to and destroy the sub with stone edge, then kill off walrein with dynamicpunch/cross chop.
  13. Damanzi

    Damanzi

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    He'd be roared out after the stone edge.
  14. Lemmiwinks MkII

    Lemmiwinks MkII

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    Actually there were a number of us back in June, before Shoddy, discussing the usefulness of Pressuredactyl in the Stalling thread, and I was much in favour of it. Yet during the whole thread I don't recall anyone mentioning the possibility of Walrein in the hail being useful despite it already being a known strategy in Japanese PBR circles. However, Deck Knight is probably the first to implement Pressuredactyl into a stalling strategy successfully on Shoddy.

    Actually I think it's 100 - normal accuracy during Protect, meaning Dynamicpunch is always the best move to use against protecting Walrein.
  15. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight Photorealistic Seagull (PSG)
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    The problem with Stalling way back when is that everyone had a mental block on how stalling was supposed to be able to beat all out attacks. This was in the era when everyone thought "LOL Toxic Spikes worst move ever HAI Gutscross." As it turns out, Toxic Spikes is pretty godly and the only trouble I've been having is with teams that pack Roserade and are smart enough to switch out of Mamoswine. I think someone had a Muk around too. I lost to a Gyara yesterday because he used 264 speed Gyara instead of Bulky and he clocked Aero before I could Sub (had I been faster it would probably follow that he'd use Taunt, so I'd Taunt to prevent that, then Stall out his Waterfall PP).
  16. choop

    choop

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    Listen to this man.

    Also I don't see why people are scared of this. It doesn't hurt anything. Just let it poison heracross then rapid spin then let them waste their PP while you do whatever (set up stealth rock spikes and toxic spikes/stat-up)
  17. Gmax

    Gmax kuahahahaha
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    Wow@Mop. He pointed out what makes most battlers not that good, a lack of ability to build a team with a strategy/ use said team's strategy before getting owned.
    He's absolutely right. Though I don't really see the fun in using BP Teams against anyone. No one respects a battler who owns them using a BP chain....

    That said, I love MoPNite!
  18. Phoenix_21

    Phoenix_21

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    I was planning a team with Toxic Spikes/Whirlwind Drapion before this thread was posted, and i think that Drapion could have its uses with it being so fast for both Toxic spikes and PHazing, whilst still being pretty sturdy in stall teams like this.

    Also, if hail teams like this prove popular (i haven't played Shoddy but i assume they are from what people are saying) i wonder if the resttalk roar articuno could be useful in a hail team... Stealth rock bites but Arti was always cool in Advance.
  19. TVboyCanti

    TVboyCanti

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    Is it really fun to sit in front of your computer for 2 hours playing the same person and doing the same 2 moves over and over again? I've never understood the attraction to stalling.

    Sun Tzu: "Thus, though we have heard of stupid haste in battle, cleverness has never been associated with long delays"
  20. Aeroblacktyl

    Aeroblacktyl The pizza doesn't scream in the oven! LOL!
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    Ever tried GSC back in 2001-2003 dude?
  21. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    I disagree. How I do things is I first build the core of the team, usually 2-4 Pokemon, and then I fill the remaining slots with stuff to counter the counters to my main Pokemon.

    I also disagree with the whole "best defense is a good offense" thing. Stalling teams still work. The only thing I have had trouble with so far is occasionally some Nasty Plotters. However, with the updates I just put into my team, that problem should be gone.
  22. Aeroblacktyl

    Aeroblacktyl The pizza doesn't scream in the oven! LOL!
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    When things look good on paper, that doesn't necessarily mean that it'll do well in battle. However, if you can pull off your team, and by you, I mean you Obi, that's cause you executed your team correctly. However, I doubt any team in unbeatable, so if another randomass team was played right, then you -could- lose, could you not? Therefore that's exactly what DP is, whoever executes better.
  23. SNX7

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    I agree with Aeroblacktyl 100%. D/P seems to be leaning more and more towards team execution than a huge offensive metagame that everyone thought was the case at first. Yes, things hit harder in D/P, but many new walls have been launched into the metagame and have proved to be very successful.

    Stall team's and defensive teams can work extremely well, if you execute properly. I HATE teams that carry stuff like Blissey/Cress/Hippowdon/Gliscor, because no matter how offensive the metagame is, it's still extemely hard to break through multiple walls when played properly. If you don't execute your strat, then you're more than likely going to lose the game.

    As Aero said earlier, everyone's mindset in approaching this is wrong. Dragontamer is assuming that he has Toxic Spikes up, and has gotten Walrein in with this strategy. What's the best way to counter it? Why, how about not letting him get the Toxic Spikes up? Or Nasty Plot/Swords Dance up while he toxic spikes. The best way to counter this set, is just to not let him get what he wants. This holds true to any team, the best counter is to not let your opponent execute whatever strategy they have.

    Now I have no idea how much of that made sense, or is actually on-topic since I've been awake for 22 of the last 24 hours, but my main point is that once Dragontamer sets up, there are only very, very specific pokemon builds that can beat him, just like with any other good strategy.
  24. COalex

    COalex

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    You're completely missing the point here. It's more about who has the better plan than anything else imo =/
  25. Aeroblacktyl

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    No it doesn't. It doesn't mean that at all. What's the point of having a good strategy if you don't know how to use it. There are fundamentals such as keeping note of what is going to stop you and how to get around that, planning what pokes are not as useful and knowing when the hell to sacrifice them or otherwise. Just because you have some 'awesome amazing' set up to something doesn't mean shit if I know how to manuever around it with lesser Pokes. Say some random Newbie uses a team trying to build around Kyogre and you're using a regular 'balanced' OU team and won. Does that mean your team strategy was better than his team? Hell no. It's cause he doesn't know how to use it.

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