3v3 General Discussion

Jhon

Someday in the Rain
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Something I want to try out quite quickly is the z-hydro, icy wind, cm, filler Suicune set, but now with Fini. I think that could be really strong.
Drill Run Phero was something I thought was really dumb for while, giving it outs vs Pex, Aegi and even improving it's matchup with M-Gengar. After I realised that it would likely be dropping Poison Jab or Ice Beam, it started looking like Phero was gonna continue have trouble with some common stuff no matter the set. Still kinda dumb though.
Reminder that Mind Blow cuts Blacephalon's health by 50% of its max health, so best case scenario you get three shots at it. Could be cool with Firium Z or Specs, but I think Scarf/Sash + Fire Blast will be the standard.
It's the huge base power on Mind Blown which is gonna make this mon. Dealing with unboosted 110-stab, even from 151 SpA, is substantially easier than 150. It's, in part, why we see people using Overheat instead of Fire Blast and similar. That extra push makes a huge difference. If this was 6v6 I'd be more open to pulling it back and using the recoil-less options.
 

Theorymon

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Not that it has much of a movepool anyways, but Blacephalon has an interesting flaw the mechanics thread brought up: Mind Blown's recoil is more like half an explosion than traditional recoil, and also rounds up, so it'll ALWAYS get 2HKOed by it.

Also, this means that if you're in a one v one situation and get the KO with Mind Blown, the foe still wins because Blacephalon actually gets KOed first >_>. Might make running 2 fire moves not a bad idea, especially on hypothetical choice sets, just to avoid scenarios where say, you lose to a Ferrothorn rofl.
 

ethan06

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Pretty excited for the broadened distribution of Sticky Web - even though it's not as useful in 3v3, it does help a lot of slower things to really shine in capacities that they generally don't do as well in, and Araquanid in particular doesn't really have anything better to spend the extra slot on honestly. I wanted Ribombee to be good from the word go as well so hopefully this will give it a boost.

Tsareena now has a good STAB! Probably more significant for doubles with Queenly Majesty but I think Tsareena is a really cool mon too. Punishment could probably see use alongside some kind of Swagger strategy to muscle through Aegislash and Marowak too but it's probably still better off with Fling in practice lol. Power Whip is a massive improvement to Trop Kick though
 

Theorymon

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another major mechanic thing to note: if Kommo-O uses its Z move on a fairy-type, it does NOT get the stat boosts sadly!

Makes me wonder if that strat is gonna be a better fit in doubles. You're really gonna need to smack Fairy-types if you want to use this in singles. Of course you can also just say screw that and use Dragon Dance + Close Combat :P
 

cant say

grumpy and stubborn
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I added all the new stuff to http://spo.ink/bsscalc so you guys can start theorymonning ideas. not that it's relevant for battle spot (except maybe special season 7 which seems to allow legends) but I made Ultra Necrozma a forme of Dusk Mane and Dawn Wings Necrozma because it works like a Mega Evolution, and the Ultra version will be the default forme if you import a DM/DW set that has Ultranecrozium Z as the held item (and other items leave it as the base forme). Have fun!
 

cant say

grumpy and stubborn
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oh shit we've been sleeping on something guys....


Muk-Alola @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Gluttony
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Minimize
- Curse
- Recycle
- Knock Off / Payback

Also DragonWhale pointed this out on discord:


Hydreigon @ Poisonium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Belch
- filler
- filler
- filler

252+ SpA Hydreigon Acid Downpour (190 BP) vs. 236 HP / 20 SpD Tapu Fini: 182-216 (104 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

that's clean
 

Hulavuta

rip kurt cocain
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Wow, I can't believe Naganadel. Seems like that thing exists just to kill Mega Salamence with that speed (which is something I'm 100% fine with). Also can be useful to get Zard-X. It's also great for countering all those Tapus, especially Scarf Lele. Seems like this Pokemon will become an automatic staple.

I'm ready for Stakataka to be the next Nihilego. Everyone said that that was shit for a while too. Rock/Steel just seems to be an awful typing (4x weak to Earthquake lol) but with that defense, I don't know if it will always matter. A Trick Room set on that could be interesting, though I say that about everything.
 
Wow, I can't believe Naganadel. Seems like that thing exists just to kill Mega Salamence with that speed (which is something I'm 100% fine with). Also can be useful to get Zard-X. It's also great for countering all those Tapus, especially Scarf Lele. Seems like this Pokemon will become an automatic staple.

I'm ready for Stakataka to be the next Nihilego. Everyone said that that was shit for a while too. Rock/Steel just seems to be an awful typing (4x weak to Earthquake lol) but with that defense, I don't know if it will always matter. A Trick Room set on that could be interesting, though I say that about everything.
What do you mean by "The next Nihilego?"
 

Theorymon

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Wow, I can't believe Naganadel. Seems like that thing exists just to kill Mega Salamence with that speed (which is something I'm 100% fine with). Also can be useful to get Zard-X. It's also great for countering all those Tapus, especially Scarf Lele. Seems like this Pokemon will become an automatic staple.

I'm ready for Stakataka to be the next Nihilego. Everyone said that that was shit for a while too. Rock/Steel just seems to be an awful typing (4x weak to Earthquake lol) but with that defense, I don't know if it will always matter. A Trick Room set on that could be interesting, though I say that about everything.
While I'm not quite sure I'd go as far as saying that Stakataka will be as good as Nihilego ended up being, I agree that it may end up being a dark horse Pokemon in a similar style. As terrible of a typing Steel / Rock is, Stakataka has 2 key things seperating it from the usual shlock of this type: Plenty of offensive power, and access to Trick Room.

As some of you probably know, Trick Room is far more potent in Battle Spot Singles than other singles metagames, due to the faster pace of battles when you have half a team. Of the usable offensive Trick Roomers (Porygon2, Mimikyu, Chandelure, and Mega Slowbro), Stakataka has plenty of power compared to them thanks to its very powerful Gyro Ball, and is the only particularly powerful physical one (TR Mimikyu is great, but it can feel pretty lacking in power at times!).

While I think the secret to Stakataka will be using it offensively, I think it would be a shame to let its impressive Defense stat go unnoticed however. As terrible as Rock / Steel is, Stakataka is so physically bulky that surviving unstabbed Earthquakes is a very real possability in emergencies. For example, Mega Salamence has a less than 20% shot of OHKOing Stakataka with Earthquake and an Adamant Nature! I know some of us have been discussing a Lonely nature with a Defense IV of 16 to boost Attack as well. I can see this being a dangerous sweeper, but I'm not sure how much I'm going to like it just because there's a lot of cases where having a full Defense stat can make Stakataka survive some really crazy physical attacks. In fact, I'm even considering using this with Tapu Bulu support, which makes a lot of unstabbed Earthquakes into 3HKOs at best! I think TR Cresselia could work out fine as well thanks to Lunar Dance, and supporting a fellow offensive Trick Roomer is something Cresselia rarely gets the chance to pull off due to bad typing synergy with the likes of Mimikyu and Mega Slowbro!

cant say I know your skeptical, and the game isn't even out yet, but I'd actually consider adding a Stakataka set to the OP just because I think at worst, this thing can be a good niche pick on Trick Room teams. Here's the set I'd add personally:

Stakataka @ Life Orb / Rockium Z / Fightingium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave / Lonely
IVs: 16 Def for Lonely
-Trick Room
-Gyro Ball
-Rock Blast / Stone Edge
-Superpower / Earthquake

Anyways, some other stuff on my mind!

-Now that I've thought about Blacephalon some more: I really think a secondary Fire-type move should always be slashed in, now that we know that Mind Blown works more like Explosion than a normal recoil move lol.

-I think Calm Mind will probably be fine, but I'm interested in trying out Choice sets as well, just for the raw power. I think I may test some Sash sets with HP Rock as well to nail Charizards and Volcaronas a bit, not sure. Not using Mind Blown does seem like blasphemy, but I think Blacephalon has enough power to get away with using a pretty vanilla Focus Sash set.

-While Blacephalon may be the new hot Ghost / Fire, I don't think it actually outclasses Chandelure or Alolan Marowak. Chandelure still has Energy Ball which comes in handy versues Ghost-types, is a better Blaziken check due to Flash Fire, and Inflitrator can be a LIFE SAVER against a certain set of Substitute abusing Pokemon! And I somehow forgot this, but Blacephalon does not learn Trick Room, which plenty of Chandelure use. Alolan Marowak is a much more defensive approach, so its pretty much a different Pokemon :P

-Not much has changed on my thoughts about Naganadel: I think it's going to be a bloody brilliant Pokemon! Only interesting new thought I have is: I sorta want to try U-turn on it. Losing coverage honestly may not be worth it, but I like the idea of breaking Mimikyu disguises, since a fresh Mimikyu can still seriously threaten Naganadel, especially in lead situations. It also lets me get the hell away from Breloom, which sounds nice since I really don't want Naganadel to get Spored lol.

-Stupid as it sounds, me and ThickFatAzumarill are sorta considering trying out Stealth Rock Dusk and Midday Lycanrock leads, mostly because Drill Run gives it OK coverage now. Plus, I really like Accelrock sniping some super annoying mons like Volcarona and the Charizard bros. Also, funny thing to note is that +2 Lycanrock actually OHKOs Celesteela with Splintered Stormshards, but that sounds pretty hard to set up tbh. Assuming its allowed, I think Dusk Lycanroc might be the better lead if only because it can deal some nice chip damage against SpD Celesteela with Tough Claws Fire Fang, but I do sorta like how Middday can mess with sand teams a bit by Drill Running Excadrill before it can land a hit, even though its... A bit weak to say the least!

-Life Orb Pheromosa sounds much cooler to me than before for one reason: as it turns out, LO Drill Run usually OHKOs Mega Gengar. Also nice for doing damage to Toxapex. You could hypothetically run Throat Chop if you're scared of Drill Run Missing or really need to hit Blacephalon, might be an ok alternative if Toxapex isn't a big issue. That being said, HP Ghost still has a home on specially offensive Pheromnosa for hitting Mimikyu. On the cool side, Pheromosa also gets Shock Wave now, so no more need for Hidden Power Electric lol.

-This is sorta stupid, but I noticed that Mimikyu gets Drain Punch now. I guess you could use Fightingium Z Mimikyu if you really hate Ferrothorn and Heatran huh... Hard to fit in though, would probably have to go over Shadow Claw.

-IDK if anyone notieed this, but Primarina and Tapu Fini get Icy Wind now. I don't think its a big deal on Primarina execept maybe for fash Sash sets, but I think this could be a cool option on offensive Tapu Fini, since it should be able to outspeed Tapu Koko if you REALLY invest in Speed. Sorta like what Suicune does with its AV set, except I think Tapu Fini is better off with a Z-move if it attempts that.
 
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Ok, ok, so how about something like

Blacephalon @ Firium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
-Mind Blown
-Shadow Ball
-Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fighting
-Pain Split

I believe that Z Mind Blown will seriously snowball, if utilized at the right time. A good partner for this would also be Mega Lopunny; it does get Healing Wish,
 
Ok, ok, so how about something like

Blacephalon @ Firium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
-Mind Blown
-Shadow Ball
-Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fighting
-Pain Split

I believe that Z Mind Blown will seriously snowball, if utilized at the right time. A good partner for this would also be Mega Lopunny; it does get Healing Wish,
Its a very nice set! We already stated it before! FiriumZ, sash and choice itens are going to be majority choices for this mon for sure. Also I must make a note that HP fighting is impossible to obtain in UB and legendaries, if USUM keeps the obligatory 3’s 31 IV. For this reason I believe tyranitar will be the best SpD wall against blacephalon and naganadel, like our collegues mentioned before.

HP ground probably will dominate at first seasons because it hits heatran. Otherwise HP ice is also a good option to hit mence and landorusT.

Pain split might be good against SpD,we have to test. WoW also be good to burn tyranitar in a switch.

I dont know about Mlopunny, but I bet my coins that MMence will be the best partner to it. Celesteela or Porygon2 will complete the core. For sure a Aegis counter/check will be usefull since blacephalon cant resist a shadow ball, and its too risking for a switch. Anyways I think that all added mons have capabilities and I’m really excited to test them!☺️
 
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/376205923082960916/380577349978161162/image.jpg
Season 7 special is confirmed to have uber legendaries banned and is alola dex only. Pentagon mons are allowed in ALL formats, salamence is pentagon.
Edit: Gen 5 mons are banned in special, im going to assume this means all past gen mons are banned in season 7 special.
Edit 2: In case anyone asks, image was taken from SM special ladder. Oddly rating battles are up currently.
Edit 3: For those skeptical: Heres GL allowing me into rating battles while its down currently.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/318116702372233218/380564386177351690/image.jpg
Edit 4: After double checking, pentagon pokemon appear to be banned in special.
 
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Theorymon

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I did my first 25 battles on cart! I used a rush job team of LO 4 Attacks Naganadel / Mega Gyaraods / Groundium Z Landorus-T / Scarf Tapu Lele / SD Mimikyium Z Mimikyu / SpD Celesteela. I'm gonna throw the team away since it has quite a few problems, but it was a nice intro to what people are using thus far!

-Naganadel was by far the most common new mon I saw, with I'd say.. half the teams I fought or so had? It's pretty great, but something I noticed is that Timid Life Orb JUST misses out on a lot of KOs. I'm starting to think that if you're using Timid Naganadel for something besides "revenge kill Mega Salamence with a Scarf", it may need Nasty Plot, otherwise stuff like Porygon2 just sorta walks over it. I'll probably try Modest 4 Attacks Naganadel later though, the SpA Beast Boost might solve some of those issues.

-I noticed quite a few teams using sorta fastish Suicunes over Tapu Fini with Icy Wind. I think they're just really scared of Naganadel or something lol.

-Mimikyu feels even MORE common than usual lol.

-I have yet to see a Blacephalon. I still want to try it, but they really screwed with that thing's movepool.

-I actually saw one Stakataka! Didn't do much beyond die to my Naganadel's HP Ground however.

-I noticed a few Scarf Greninja running around. That's always been good, but guranteeing an outspeed on Naganadel sounds great thus far.

Of course, it's early days, but thus far, this feels a lot like the usual SM stuff, except with some new arrivals.
 

Jhon

Someday in the Rain
is a Pre-Contributor
-Naganadel was by far the most common new mon I saw, with I'd say.. half the teams I fought or so had? It's pretty great, but something I noticed is that Timid Life Orb JUST misses out on a lot of KOs. I'm starting to think that if you're using Timid Naganadel for something besides "revenge kill Mega Salamence with a Scarf", it may need Nasty Plot, otherwise stuff like Porygon2 just sorta walks over it. I'll probably try Modest 4 Attacks Naganadel later though, the SpA Beast Boost might solve some of those issues.
The set I've seen everyone jump on is Timid with Nasty Plot, z-Draco, Sludge Wave, Fire move. It basically just needs to find itself in against something it can NP against, likely have rocks up and possibly not have Misty Terrain active to weaken z-Draco. I don't think it's too hard to create that situation. The speed Beast Boost is vital. Removing the possibility of Scarf Lele or Lando from revenging it is what's allowed it to sweep in many cases for me.
You mention LO Timid not quite being strong enough but I think dropping to Modest loses out on a really valuable speed tier and might not be worth it. Instead Timid specs might be worth trying if you still want 4 attacks, though I'd be much more inclined to use U-turn with a choice item. HP Ground only really gives you an out vs SpDef Heatran and I guess Staka now too. I think it's fine to drop these matchups for momentum and sash/disguise breaking.

One thing I'd like to note about it is that it has 148hp, without investment. I think it's worth investinga little to bump this up to 151hp. Given its Toxic immunity being able to survive 3 Seismic Tosses from Chansey will allow it to setup Nasty Plots and essentially break stall more reliably. Nagandel is genuinely more terrifying for stall to face than Thundurus-T (with z-move) has been.
 
So... this might sound silly. Since I haven't been to these forums all that much. But, would an Adamant Totem Marowak be alright to use in this mode? Or should I strictly use this one for my in-game team?

I WOULD get Brave Nature.... If I had more patience.

If it can work on Battle Spot Singles. What move-set would be decent for it?
 

cant say

grumpy and stubborn
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Battle Spot Leader
So... this might sound silly. Since I haven't been to these forums all that much. But, would an Adamant Totem Marowak be alright to use in this mode? Or should I strictly use this one for my in-game team?

I WOULD get Brave Nature.... If I had more patience.

If it can work on Battle Spot Singles. What move-set would be decent for it?
Adamant is Alolan Marowak's preferred ability anyway. They usually run:

Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Bone
- Flare Blitz
- Bonemarang
- Will-O-Wisp

edit: oh HA only that's lame
 
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Adamant is Alolan Marowak's preferred ability anyway. They usually run:

Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Bone
- Flare Blitz
- Bonemarang
- Will-O-Wisp
Ah, the only really bad thing about Totem A-Marowak is that it has its Hidden Ability. So, unfortunately, I can't run Lightning Rod with it.
 

Psynergy

Escape Route
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BSS Tour Champion
So the usage stats don't get discussed on the forums as much anymore thanks to Discord, and I kinda want to address that since there's a number of interesting trends coming out now that the meta has had a bit of time to settle from new toy syndrome. I think discussing these usage stats is super important right now since I've seen some people are stuck in the first weeks of the meta and aren't aware of how things have really progressed since then. A bit of a text wall so be warned.


I mainly want to talk about Naganadel, since the prevailing opinion from early meta is that Naganadel is one of the most oppressive meta threats around and lacks any sort of proper checks or counterplay. Now I really like Naganadel and don't want to give the impression that it's anything less than fantastic, but I disagree that it's the most broken thing around or that you need obscure checks to actually account for it. I think that's reflected well in its usage right now, while it began comfortably within the Top 5 in usage it's currently fallen to 10th (estimated 17% usage). I expected this to happen and think Naganadel will settle around this range as the meta continues to progress (I believe Jhon predicted this exact trend as well), but that's still a sign of a fantastic threat.

Optimally played, Naganadel can win games itself, but it often isn't actually that simple. Mimikyu, Landorus-T, Choice Scarf Tapu Lele, Blaziken, Heatran, Focus Sash users, Tyranitar and Misty Terrain all pressure it or outright prevent it from setting up, and they've always been powerful threats that are easy to fit on teams. While the combination of Nasty Plot and Z-Draco Meteor can just as easily steal games, this takes smart positioning to pull off against a good team and isn't as simple as "just find a turn to set up." I'll admit the pressure Naganadel puts on stall teams is rough though, considering it's already an archetype that takes a good deal of skill to use effectively, but it's just a threat that stall has no choice but to adapt to. Naganadel is a huge threat that teams need to account for, but the countermeasures required to beat it were always part of the meta. It isn't any more overbearing than some of the stuff we already have, and I think its usage trends have begun to reflect that as well.


Now Mimikyu's usage has definitely gone up as a result, currently at about 45% usage. I think that's a normal reaction at this stage in the meta and a consequence of the many dangerous threats rather than a consequence of Naganadel in particular. Mimikyu is just too easy of a Pokemon to fit on a team to patch up weaknesses and this early in the meta it's an easy catch-all answer that just got better with a stronger Z-Move. I do think its usage will settle down a bit later on but not by much. Going from 38% usage in SM to 45% in USUM is truthfully not that significant of a change regardless though. Gyarados usage going up is a natural reaction and while I know some people have reservations about it, I think it's arguably the correct meta call at the moment to address all the Mimikyu around. I've always been a Gyarados fan and with the drop in Salamence usage and rise in stuff that Gyarados can beat, I think the usage is warranted. I do expect it to settle back down to the lower ends of top 10 eventually but we'll see how that pans out.


Speaking of which, Salamence is down to 16th in usage (estimated 12.5% usage) which I think is still insane. This is probably the only meta trend I disagree with, but I see why it's happening. Naganadel's effect on the meta makes Salamence's role a bit tougher and shifts things in favor of Charizard X and Gyarados who don't have a strictly losing matchup against Mimikyu and fare better against the apparent rise in Steel-types. Interestingly Metagross and Aegislash have also basically switched places and sit at 9th and 17th respectively, I assume they're primarily consequences of the meta shift to more immediate speed and power but it's an interesting trend I don't think people have noted. Kartana and Scizor have also seen significant rises from the mid 40s from SM to high 30s right now, which I'd like to believe is a reaction to Mimikyu's usage and tendency towards Mimikium Z. They also appreciate Aegislash and Salamence dropping a bit, although Blaziken and Charizard are still as common as ever so their surge in usage might be short-lived.


A few other changes I've noticed are that Garchomp, Kangaskhan, Volcarona, Primarina and Dragonite have also taken a hit in usage. Garchomp took the biggest hit going down to 23rd, which unfortunately seems like a sign that Garchomp isn't rising again anytime soon. Dragonite had been falling for awhile and I don't think that surprises anyone, but I don't think many people were completely aware of it. Really all of these have been slowly falling throughout SM and falling further probably cements that trend.

I know this is still fairly early into the meta and things could change, but there's a lot of interesting stuff happening in USUM that's probably gone under the radar for some people.
 
It's a bit of a shame that Garchomp is taking such a massive hit this gen. I mean, it's good to see other things finally shine. But at the same time. I actually kind of like Garchomp.... I have a soft spot for it because it was my first competitive Shiny. (Which I accidentally hatched.)

Also interesting that Megamence is actually dropping in usage.... Hm... I might have to start using my Megazard X again.
 
The significant megamence drop since SM is something I personally believe is primarily because of the new shiny toy in naganadel. It's also another change that I believe will be mostly reverted back with megamence eventually rising to its former spot near top 5 in the future once the meta game settle down.