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Discussion in 'Battle Spot' started by JabbaTheGriffin, Nov 4, 2013.
Choice Band Intimidate Gyarados any good as a counter to Talonflame?
I would just liek to say Weavile is my new best friend in WiFi singles. All hail Weavile. Running a CounterSash set on him with Ice Crash and Night slash + taunt, and it saves my bacon so often.
I'll post a great replay once I figure out how to see what my code is.
I really had no answer to the pokemon he brought in after he out predicted Mega Mawile, then Weavile saves the day out of nowhere with a counter and clutch flinch.
Seeing as how there isn't a Simple Questions / Answers thread for Battle Spot yet, are there any gimmicky options that the traditional Smogon metagame analyses would miss entirely (thanks to Sleep, Evasion, and other ban clauses)? Are any of them good? Specifically, I am thinking of things along the lines of:
- Moody Pokémon (Smeargle is likely best - any recommendations? Spore, King's Shield, maybe an attack for Taunt users, Minimize/Substitute/Baton Pass?)
- other Minimize abusers (Eviolite Chansey sets with Seismic Toss? Can Drifblim work with Minimize, Stockpile, and Baton Pass - and how would you get it in safely? Obviously Chansey needs support to handle Sacred Swords from the omnipresent Aegislash)
- Spore abuse, potentially with Trick Room support for slower Spore users, or perhaps after being Baton Passed substantial speed boosts from Blaziken or other Speed Boost users?
I know each of these are mentioned from time to time, but I'm asking how viable these and other "gimmicks" are in high rating Battle Spot play. Save that "it's cheap and produces 30-minute Wifi battles and relies on luck" nonsense; it's fair game on Wifi, and that's why we all go play the Smogon metagame when we get tired of evasion hax. Thanks :)
edit: I am asking about the singles metagame only, but not necessarily about 3v3 - it could be for 3v3 or 6v6, which might affect your answers!
Minimize Muk with Black Sludge. Now more broken than ever with Infestation. Had a guy immediately switch to his Mega Aggron when I sent in Muk to spam EQ. First turn Minimize, seocnd turn his (first) EQ hits and I minimize, third turn EQ misses and I use infestation, fourth turn EQ misses and I minimize, then I spammed Acid Armor. The set would look something like this:
Muk @ Black SLudge
Poison Touch / Sticky Hold
252 HP / 252 Def / 6 Atk or SpDef
Toxic / Acid Armor / Curse
Gunk Shot / Mud-Slap
Mud Slap with Infestation, oh god...Plus you could spam these to activate Poison Touch. Just beware taunts and subs. This set's worst nightmare is a surprisingly common Japanese Gyarados set that has Taunt, Substitute and Earthquake.
edit: Just upped the replay. 8d3w-wwww www3-f9wa Made the poor guy rage quit.
I've also had a ton of success sweeping with Durant. I know that's gotta be humiliating to them, getting OHKOed over and over by a little ant. The best part about it is for some reason with Aerial Ace the HP bar just goes to zero immediately, it's really hilarious.
There are definitely tons of different ways to use Smeargle effectively. A lvl 1 Moody @ Focus sash with Spore, Trick Room, Endeavor and baton pass would probably work fantastically. countered by grass types if they have one. Only reason I haven't tried this yet is it's a pain to Sketch with a lvl 1 Smeargle and keep it lvl 1. Probably some Moody Glalie strat could work too.
Trevenant can also be very rage inducing with the right set. Harvest with Sitrus berry and full stall or if you have a starf berry you can use curse and substitute for some very cheesy plays.
Not really. Talonflame favors flying moves and Gyrados doesn't resist that, though Intimidate help Brave Bird (Max EV/Adamant) be a 3HKO. This all being said Talon Flame will get two chances to get a critical KO and absent that will leave Gyrados with a measly amount of HP.
Well, no one seems to care about my Steelix question, so I'll assume it's a meh option (and run it anyway lol).
So how about Chesnaught? Defensive Chesnaught might be somewhat usable. Attracts Talonflames like crazy, though, which might be useful depending on who you partner Chesnaught with, most likely Rotom-W. Tyranitar is also a great partner because of the Dark type to threaten the Psychic types that may attack Chesnaught.
Chesnaught @ Leftovers/Rocky Helmet
252 HP/4 Atk/252 Def
-Hammer Arm/Seed Bomb
No Spikes since 3v3. Synthesis for added recovery, Leech Seed for residual damage and healing. Hammer Arm is a great STAB to hit things with. Stone Edge is for the Talonflame switchin. Seed Bomb can be used to hit bulky waters and Slowbro better, if you deem it necessary. Earthquake is an option if you fear Aegislash. Leftovers is preferred, but if someone else is running it Rocky Helmet could be an option.
Bulletproof negates a surprising amount of attacks, most importantly Sludge Bombs from Gengar/MVenusaur, and Shadow Balls from Gengar/Aegislash. Also the odd Focus Blast or Aura Sphere. Chesnaught also laughs at Breloom. It can wall MVenusaur, but can't really do much back to it unless running Earthquake.
Counter was probably the wrong word. Either way.
252+ Atk Choice Band Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 288-342 (188.2 - 223.5%)
It can't OHKO Gyarados without the crit and gets taken down itself even with full HP and Def investment which it is never going to have anyway. So as lead/revenge killer Gyarados works I think.
Chesnaught is a great pokemon. I'd slap on seed bomb there because of the extra coverage for water types which are really common. I'd rather go with other grass types though. Tangrowth, Breloom, Roserade etc. are way more appealing since they can shut down some pokemon with more ease.
I can confirm this set works well. Even in general, bulky offense works surprisingly well in 3v3, compared to 6v6 where it's often advantageous to carry glass cannons and wallbreakers since you can switch them out to one of your other 5 mons when they're threatened. Take Stone Edge, for certain. One of the best ways to deal with ubiquitous Talonflame on Wifi is to bring clear Talonflame bait that carries Stone Edge. If you bring this in on something it can threaten like a Water type (e.g. the Quagsires that some people carry to deal with dancing Aegislash) and your foe has Talonflame as well, you've got an easy shot at surprising switch-ins with the OHKO, which is something that other Grass walls like M-Venusaur can't do.
Honestly it's probably one of Chesnaught's best sets. If you run Leftovers and regularly get Leech Seed up, you could probably run Substitute or Protect instead. Anything that requires you to use Synthesis on top of all that other healing can probably kill you anyway. I personally don't like using Grass types for much other than walling or bulky offense, so I might be a little biased.
propokepwner - I like Minimize Muk. The biggest threat is probably opposing Psychic types hitting from the special side since Muk can tank most foes using Earthquake, right? Especially pre-Pokebank, I'm not seeing a lot of 3v3 teams packing a heavy Psychic hitter. I guess you'd have to watch for Earth Power, though.
Are there any other gimmicky / cheap but viable sets players have tried? Does the Drifblim idea that I mentioned not actually work in practice? I'm not asking solely to make my opponents ragequit... I'm also asking so that I'm prepared for opponents who use them. I use the Smogon metagame analyses to help prep my Wifi teams somewhat, which means I need help preparing for any strategies that are normally banned by Smogon rule clauses and thus not analyzed in the usual C&C.
Thiinking of packing mandibuzz Since i'm having trouble being walled by dusknoir/evolite dusclops and poison heal gliscor. Foul play/knock off shenanigans just seems too good not to..plus it seems like its respectable bulk and versatility as a disrupter is fantastic for the BSpot meta. any thoughts?
currently running Ferrothorn/Greninja/MKanga/AV Togekiss/Talonflame/Rotom-W not sure what to drop.
I would probably drop Togekiss since Mandibuzz usually runs specially defensive builds anyway, and you'd be stacking some extra weaknesses by replacing anything other than Talonflame/Togekiss with another Flying-type
Gonna try out an Excadrill on the BS. With all the Rotoms running around, Mold Breaker Earthquake can ruin their day.
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 234-276 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Only problem is, 0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump pretty much OHKOs 4 HP/0 SpD Excadrill. Though with Assault Vest...
0 SpA Mold Breaker Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Excadrill: 236-278 (65.1 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Might be gimmicky, but think it's worth a try?
Excadrill @ Air Balloon/Assault Vest/Choice Scarf
4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
-Shadow Claw/Swords Dance
Rapid Spin is there just because. If running Assault vest, Shadow Claw over Swords Dance. Air Balloon is still great, and Choice Scarf may be useful to outrun enemy Gengar and non-BB using Talonflame.
I dunno, maybe Excadrill isn't worth using in a 3v3 environment, but I thought I'd put it out there.
Edit: Also, is it just me, or is the Rating Battle BS server down? Every time I try to connect for Rating Battles it won't let me.
Double Edit: Welp, just checked the JP website (I'm JP cart) and indeed the Rating Battle server is unavailable atm. Oh well. Guess I can troll some people on Free Battle...
Does anyone else fear Pokebank as much as I do? I'm trying to figure out how to handle a SubDisable MegaGengar in 3v3 singles more thna anything once Pokebank sets hit the field. Coverage is so important when you are running only 3 pokes, and having to bring TWO solid ghost stoppers on anything that might expect Gengar is gonna suck. Worse, if it's running perish song and Dbond, it's nigh garunteed to hose 2 of your pokemon for free. It feels like Pokebank is gonna be the dawn of all ghost teams. Run ghost or perish to trapping. :(
I personally think you'll be unable to use Pokebank mons on Battlespot. With that Kalos icon meaning eligibility I think many people are going to cry when they can't bring crazy RNG'd mons to the fight. This means that GF will be retiring old egg moves maybe.
If I am wrong I'll be sad and very afraid of what people can bring to bear with hacks/rng of previous generations.
Certainly. It must have just been a difference of semantics. I've had good success with Gyrados as a lead when I suspect Talonflame leads. Either way I think an intimidate lead is always helpful against an physical meta game.
I personally like the regular attacker Gyrados with DD; I've set up with one DD take two hits and try a sweep. If not waterfall will ohko after BB recoil and if you want add life orb.
I'm going to rip part of an idea I saw in one of the Metagame threads and adjust it slightly for Wifi:
Drifblim @ Weakness Policy
(+Some defense, -Some offense depending on which attack is chosen) - Careful w/ Acrobatics might work best
(defensive EVs, probably 252 HP and a mix of Def/SpD)
- Baton Pass
- Acrobatics / Shadow Ball
In the metagame thread, Minimize was not listed, and Substitute or several other options took its place, but on Wifi I'm almost thinking Minimize is the best option. The idea would be to come in on something that can't OHKO it, use either Stockpile or Minimize (not sure which, but I'd think Minimize would be superior most of the time), ideally tank one super effective hit, then Baton Pass the Stockpile/Minimize and the Weakness Policy boosts to a fast or Scarfed sweeper - or even a sweeper with Agility / Automize. The Unburden boost cannot be passed, but it would likely guarantee that Drifblim gets off its Baton Pass before the killing blow comes in.
This could also be done more safely with Focus Sash to pass strictly defensive boosts, perhaps relying on a little bit of evasion luck, but then one would not get the Weakness Policy boosts.
Acrobatics / Shadow Ball are simply there as the strongest STAB options (especially after Weakness Policy is used up) to prevent being Taunt bait.
Any thoughts on Weakness Policy vs. Focus Sash? I know the latter is safer, but it also doesn't pass +2 offensive boosts to a potentially mixed sweeper. Does the game size influence this decision? I'd think 3v3 would favor Sash more because with fewer Pokémon on both teams, it's harder to pick and choose what Drifblim can switch into. Or should this just be used as a lead, especially in 3v3? A Sash lead with Minimize is extremely likely to pass one +2 evasion boost.
Any thoughts on Stockpile vs. Minimize? Is it a waste to include both? Would some situations favor one over the other (e.g. Minimize better against opponents with low accuracy moves)?
In general I'd think this could set up and pass quite well against the ubiquitous standard M-Kanga (immune to Return / PuP / Earthquake and won't be hit by Sucker Punch if it doesn't attack) and potentially even Aegislash as long as its evasion keeps it alive long enough to pass a few Minimizes. Fun fact: max SpA Aegislash and M-Gengar Shadow Balls do not OHKO a Careful Drifblim with over 150 SpD EVs.
Finally, what teammates would rock it the hardest with a potential +2 evasion or +1 mixed defense, along with +2 mixed offensive boosts? Garchomp / Multiscale Dragonite with Yache? Something else bulky offense with Leftovers?
I've made a team utilising an idea like this but unfortunately haven't had a chance to test it properly with rated battles down. I tried it out in a few free battles but people generally rage quit after the string of misses.
I went with 252 def/252 SpD Evs and Sitrus berry on Drifblim to survive longer to hopefully get off 3 minimises and a sub, which I was running over an attack - if I'm gonna get screwed by taunt I may as well just get completely screwed. In a few cases where the opponent didn't have a good counter for dribbling I could get off a full 3 minimises, 3 stockpiles, sub and baton pass it on. If you wanna go with an attack I'd think using minimise/sub/baton pass/attack would work best. After 2 minimises you'll be avoiding a lot and from my experience often have the health to set up a sub before you baton pass, keeping your next mon safe during the switch.
I chose to baton pass to focus sash Blaziken with swords dance/baton pass so I could swords dance/speed boost and try to sweep, or if things looked dicey I could baton pass all these buffs along the line to mega Kang. Mega Kang with minimise, stockpile, swords dance and a couple of speed boosts is going to wreck anything. Especially with rock slide for flinch hax to top it all off, and ensure he can hit ghosts.
Obviously taunt will shut Drifblim down completely, but that's why there are 5 other mons to pick your team of 3 from. If your opponent doesn't bring taunt along and you can get a few minimises off it's incredibly effective though.
The idea of weakness policy could def work, but I'd rather try and survive longer to get more evasion/defensive buffs up to baton pass. If their lead is strong against Drifblim often the first super effective attack will drop me just below 50% before I get a minimise off, activating situs berry getting me back above 50% as well as unburden so I can get a second minimise off before I'm attacked again. At that point I can baton pass 2 minimises off if they manage to hit again, which I should survive, or more often they miss and I can set up a sub and continue buffing, if they bust that I can set up another before I'm forced to pass. I don't think a focus sash will work well on Drifblim since it's so difficult to OHKO anyway, as your calcs suggest.
See, this is why I always bring a Taunter just because of these strategies. In fact, if you really want to utilize Minimize passing, watch out for Sableye. That's who I use, and it has been an amazingly great counter to a ton of different gimmick strategies. Baton Passing, Evasion, setups or whatnot, you name it. If you want to get something to discourage Sableye, I'd recommend either Espeon or Xatu. With Magic Bounce and a well-timed switch, you can disable the Sableye right back. Or, the player can predict that you would and just Foul Play your switchin, but that's prediction for you.
Phil274 - I might try Weakness Policy on it instead. Your 3-Poke chain strategy is solid, but a few things seriously mess it up, namely any sort of phazing or Taunt. Not to mention, in team preview, I'm going to be thinking "pass team" the instant I see Drifblim and Blaziken together (since the presence of Kanga almost certainly indicates Blaziken is a passer - yes, some players carry a second Mega and only bring one to each 3v3, but in that case I'd be way more concerned about the passing threat).
By contrast, Weakness Policy Drifblim is a bit less of a safe "win condition", but it doesn't depend on a second Pokémon in the chain passing the attack buffs. That way I can have a third Poke that is more useful than a boosting/passing Blaziken, and isn't ruined as easily by a timely phaze.
Still, I was surprised from the calcs just how little Drifblim can do against Sableye... neither STAB option does better than a possible 3HKO vs. Sableye with Leftovers, and I can imagine Sableye and other Taunt users creating problems for this too. I like a Magic Bounce option. How about M-Absol alongside Dragonite/Garchomp/some crazy-fast sweeper? M-Absol is the only Magic Bouncer who isn't weak to Foul Play and other Sableye nonsense, and as a bonus he could pass too... but he needs a turn to transform, which probably scraps the whole idea right there unless he's used as a pretty iffy lead (and then good luck getting Drifblim in). Or could that work?
Mega Absol should never be used for Magic Bounce. Magic Bounce is merely a benefit, not the main point of Mega Absol. So if you want to use Magic Bounce, use Espeon or Xatu.
The thing I like about the 3v3 style is I don't have to take Drifblim if I see a common taunted/phaser :) Blaziken and Mega Kang are perfectly good without Drifblim and there's three other pokemon to choose from. I seem to come across a lot of players without any kind of phase or taunt though, so Drifblim would just be a not-so-fun surprise for them.
That makes sense Phil274. Maybe I'll train up a Drifblim with a similar set and bring it along for the ride when the opponent doesn't seem to have a way to get rid of it. And I agree farranpoison, it's just that most defensive Taunt users seem to have considerable advantages over Espeon and Xatu. Magic Bounce seems better used for entry hazards, which are not as common in 3v3, if I'm not mistaken.
Speaking of Sableye, what are some good counters to the standard SpD Sableye? I'd like to pack mons that serve general offensive purposes and also happen to counter Sableye and other annoying, bulky ghosts like Dusclops/Dusknoir and Spiritomb (and Drifblim, while we're at it)... rather than taking mons specifically for them.
Usually, now Sableye is max Def rather than SpD. Or, a mix of both defenses. If you want to counter Sableye, pretty much bring a Fire type. Yet, that's not totally a safe thing to do, since many Fire types would not want a Foul Play on the switchin. Really, one thing you have to remember is that Sableye is still quite frail, and strong hits will decimate it over time. I've been using max SpD Sableye myself, and strong physical hits kill it, or even Fairy attacks like Togekiss's Dazzling Gleam can OHKO it. But as always, you have to watch out for stuff Sableye can do. If you predict wrong, it can mess you up with Burn, Taunt, or Foul Play.
I just want to say that I've tried this out a little and this set is beautiful. It completely slipped my mind that Muk got both Minimize and Infestation.
I've been running Gunk Shot and Curse in the optional slots, but I'm thinking Rest might be a solid choice over Curse. I think I prefer Curse to Acid Armor to avoid being helpless in the face of a set-up mon that gets lucky bypassing Minimize. As long as you've managed to Minimize once you aren't totally screwed by Taunt, since the amazing Infestation will go through it.
Has anyone had any luck with weather teams or Terrain abuse? I figure even with the weather nerfs you'd not really feel it in 3v3 I'd think so long as you bring the proper item. I'm working on a Politoed with Drizzle and trying to come up with potential buddies.
In my experince, it just doesn't work. I've faced a couple decent Politoed teams doing everything in their power with Rotom-W and Politoed, both super bulky, trying to keep rain up to support a powerful rian sweeper/stall pokemon (Hydration Vaporeon is popular) And the short version is with only 3 team slots, Goodra laughs in their faces. I had a goodra sit in for 11 turns against them, eating ice beams and hydro pumps, and just slowly beat them all too death. the normal rain dance status inducers are grass or T-wave spamming, and I've seen a couple lanturns as well. Goodra simply does not care. I run mine with Sap Sipper, but hydration works as a dedicated rain stopper.
Sun I find more challenging, though I use Rotom-H as well to burn block with Reunicleus, as well as Sand. Rain just doesn't seem as awesome in 3v3 singles anymore.
EDIT: If you play in Free mode, you see alot of swift swim sheer cold Lapras spam. I see it in rated as well and wonder how in the world they have rating above 1600 trying it (it auto fails)