I really recommend toxic over ice fang on Gliscor. Toxic makes it a much better stall breaker for example on Blissey. I find that Metagross and Magnezone can be ko'd by blissey with FlameThrower. Gliscor having toxic would be very effective on this team, considering blissey is a huge problem even with taunt up.
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4th Gen Sandstorm Team (OU)
- Thread starter Elite_Trainer_U
- Start date
I would use toxic but I really need all my moves. EQ and roost are staples and I need taunt to cripple breloom, a huge annoyance as a lead. Ice fang is necessary for its excellent coverage. Thanks for the rate.
As a fix for Infernape losing HP quickly, you can replace Life Orb with Expert Belt or Leftovers.
Expert belt will give extra power due to infernape's amazing coverage, and leftovers will keep infernape alive longer.
However, neither will have the incredible damage output Life Orb has, and Leftovers misses out on a few crucial KOes.
Expert belt will give extra power due to infernape's amazing coverage, and leftovers will keep infernape alive longer.
However, neither will have the incredible damage output Life Orb has, and Leftovers misses out on a few crucial KOes.
I personally don't think that you need to even consider the threat of Attract. It's pretty much a worthless gimmick that no one ever uses.
What necessary coverage does Gliscor's Ice Fang provide? I agree with Deox759 that Toxic seems like the better alternative.
It provides coverage against flygon and dragonite AND most importantly it has coverage against breloom. How I hate breloom...
Sorry for the double post but I'm considering changing flygon for a bulky water. I wanted one that can wall and sweep, similar to how I play my gliscor. I figured that the best water types that fit my description were vaporeon, suicune, and swampert. I eliminated swampert because I wanted an even ratio of physical to special attackers. So that left the other two. Which one should I choose?
Vaporeon (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Wish
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Ice Beam
Vaporeon's massive SAtk and HP make it a very good special sweeper and wall. It's access to wish makes it even more powerful. I decided to go with a powerful STAB Hydro Pump, and a pseudo BoltBeam for coverage. However, Vaporeon lacks in the defensive departments and its speed leaves much to be desired. Also, I have no idea what I'm doing with the EV spread so I need help in that department.
Suicune @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Ice Beam
Suicune's SAtk and HP stat are both lower than Vaporeon's, but it makes up for it with its superb defenses. Its speed is subpar but not crippling. A single Calm Mind can allow suicune to sweep the opposing team. Once again, all the attacking moves are for coverage and STAB. This time I know a little more about what I'm doing with the EVs and nature but I would gladly change those as need dictates.
Both of the above pokemon have their pros and cons, but I'm leaning more to suicune because of my aggressive playing style.
Vaporeon (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Wish
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Ice Beam
Vaporeon's massive SAtk and HP make it a very good special sweeper and wall. It's access to wish makes it even more powerful. I decided to go with a powerful STAB Hydro Pump, and a pseudo BoltBeam for coverage. However, Vaporeon lacks in the defensive departments and its speed leaves much to be desired. Also, I have no idea what I'm doing with the EV spread so I need help in that department.
Suicune @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Ice Beam
Suicune's SAtk and HP stat are both lower than Vaporeon's, but it makes up for it with its superb defenses. Its speed is subpar but not crippling. A single Calm Mind can allow suicune to sweep the opposing team. Once again, all the attacking moves are for coverage and STAB. This time I know a little more about what I'm doing with the EVs and nature but I would gladly change those as need dictates.
Both of the above pokemon have their pros and cons, but I'm leaning more to suicune because of my aggressive playing style.
If you're going for bulky sweeping, I'd stick with Suicune, same set you provided.
Vaporeon is probably better suited as a team player, passing wishes, and possibly statusing or phazing or even acting as a cleric, healing status.
Vaporeon is probably better suited as a team player, passing wishes, and possibly statusing or phazing or even acting as a cleric, healing status.
Flamesaber ~ Yea I am probably going to switch flygon for suicune. The only thing that's preventing me from doing so is Vaporeon's access to wish. That just keeps popping in my mind and all of the possibilities it could offer. Should I make a support vaporeon instead? Are there any other opnions to this matter? And should I even switch flygon in the first place?
Gliscor and Hippowdon both have instant, reliable recovery, so that's less of a reason to use Vaporeon. Infernape, and Metagross and co. could benefit from Wish though, and Vaporeon can last longer than offensive Suicune through Wish + Protect, better checking some offensive threats. Vaporeon also has an immunity to Water, as opposed to a resistance. Suicune's better offensively, though.
Three Scarfers is still kinda redundant, so switching Flygon out won't hurt too much, except that it's arguably the most reliable revenge killer amongst your Scarf users. Magnezone can do better against steels, but Infernape and Flygon do well against steels anyway.
I'd switch either Metagross or Magnezone, probably the latter. Also, it's been mentioned, but switch Metagross to a more sweeping variant, or another Pokemon.
Metagross @ Life Orb/Lum Berry
Jolly 60 HP / 252 Atk / 196 Spe
-Agility
-Meteor Mash
-Earthquake
-Thunder Punch
Jolly to outspeed Scarf Flygon, Agility obviously to setup, Meteor Mash and Earthquake for general coverage, and Thunder Punch for [bulky] waters that can give your team problems, though you could also use Explosion to blow up in their faces. Fire and Ground are Metagross's only weaknesses, and most non-boosted neutral attacks shouldn't KO. When you expect an ground attack, usually Earthquake, you can switch to Gliscor or Flygon, and Fire attacks can go to Vaporeon/Suicune.
Another option you could use is the famed Sword Dance Lucario.
Lucario @ Life Orb
Adamant 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
-Swords Dance
-Close Combat
-ExtremeSpeed
-Crunch/Bullet Punch
Luke sports an immunity to the Sandstorm your team is focused around thanks to its steel typing. SD, CC, and ES are all pretty much standard. Crunch handles Celebi and non-Timid Rotom-A, though you may want to consider Bullet Punch since you don't have a particularly reliable way of KOing Gengar. Adamant for more power, but you can use Jolly to beat stuff like Timid Suicune or Timid Rotom-A.
You've got some decent checks for most flying types that could be an issue. If you can manage to fit Stone Edge somewhere on your team, then they're covered even better (maybe on Flygon, but Thunder Punch works better for many, since it's more accurate). Ghosts can be handled to an extent, though most aren't reliably KO'd (mostly since you don't have Pursuit to trap them, but they can still be dealt with). Suicune can beat most Physical walls, and Vaporeon can threaten them somewhat, though ones that carry Taunt can be a problem. Faster priority users such as Infernape can also be an issue, but Hippowdon does well against Infernape, and you can speed tie non-max speed ones, and Flygon can revenge non-Scarfed ones.
Whichever you go with, Stealth Rock will help, since it can net them some KOs, and it makes it harder for Flying types to switch in frequently.
Hope I helped,
~FlameSaber
Three Scarfers is still kinda redundant, so switching Flygon out won't hurt too much, except that it's arguably the most reliable revenge killer amongst your Scarf users. Magnezone can do better against steels, but Infernape and Flygon do well against steels anyway.
I'd switch either Metagross or Magnezone, probably the latter. Also, it's been mentioned, but switch Metagross to a more sweeping variant, or another Pokemon.
Metagross @ Life Orb/Lum Berry
Jolly 60 HP / 252 Atk / 196 Spe
-Agility
-Meteor Mash
-Earthquake
-Thunder Punch
Jolly to outspeed Scarf Flygon, Agility obviously to setup, Meteor Mash and Earthquake for general coverage, and Thunder Punch for [bulky] waters that can give your team problems, though you could also use Explosion to blow up in their faces. Fire and Ground are Metagross's only weaknesses, and most non-boosted neutral attacks shouldn't KO. When you expect an ground attack, usually Earthquake, you can switch to Gliscor or Flygon, and Fire attacks can go to Vaporeon/Suicune.
Another option you could use is the famed Sword Dance Lucario.
Lucario @ Life Orb
Adamant 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
-Swords Dance
-Close Combat
-ExtremeSpeed
-Crunch/Bullet Punch
Luke sports an immunity to the Sandstorm your team is focused around thanks to its steel typing. SD, CC, and ES are all pretty much standard. Crunch handles Celebi and non-Timid Rotom-A, though you may want to consider Bullet Punch since you don't have a particularly reliable way of KOing Gengar. Adamant for more power, but you can use Jolly to beat stuff like Timid Suicune or Timid Rotom-A.
You've got some decent checks for most flying types that could be an issue. If you can manage to fit Stone Edge somewhere on your team, then they're covered even better (maybe on Flygon, but Thunder Punch works better for many, since it's more accurate). Ghosts can be handled to an extent, though most aren't reliably KO'd (mostly since you don't have Pursuit to trap them, but they can still be dealt with). Suicune can beat most Physical walls, and Vaporeon can threaten them somewhat, though ones that carry Taunt can be a problem. Faster priority users such as Infernape can also be an issue, but Hippowdon does well against Infernape, and you can speed tie non-max speed ones, and Flygon can revenge non-Scarfed ones.
Whichever you go with, Stealth Rock will help, since it can net them some KOs, and it makes it harder for Flying types to switch in frequently.
Hope I helped,
~FlameSaber
Metagross VS Tyranitar
Actually, if you are looking for a late game sweeper, Metagross is definitely better. You don't really need sandstorm if it is your last pokemon. Depending if you expect your early and middle to KO at least 5 of their pokemon, you might want to stick with metagross. But if you don't think the early and middle is sufficent, go with Tyranitar, as he can, without a doubt shake it up in the middle game. But since Tyranitar has a gender, remember what I said about Attract.
Actually, if you are looking for a late game sweeper, Metagross is definitely better. You don't really need sandstorm if it is your last pokemon. Depending if you expect your early and middle to KO at least 5 of their pokemon, you might want to stick with metagross. But if you don't think the early and middle is sufficent, go with Tyranitar, as he can, without a doubt shake it up in the middle game. But since Tyranitar has a gender, remember what I said about Attract.