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5th Gen Concept Theoreymoning

Discussion in 'Create-A-Pokémon Project' started by Deck Knight, Dec 12, 2010.

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  1. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight October Surprise
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    I think it's time to spark some new life in the forum, so while I take care of a few things behind the scenes, I figure you all could use a little fun right now.

    So here's your basic disclaimer:

    We will not be transferring 4th Gen CAPs to the 5th Generation. Do not attempt to bring this up for discussion or argue this.

    That being said, the reason we have come to this decision is because the 5th generation is a whole new metagame, and between the hard-coded seperation (no HM transfers from 4th Gen, No Item transfers, etc.) and the all new threat level (as well as entirely different threats) it's highly impractical.

    What this thread is for is to speculate on concepts that can help address the new threats in the 5th generation. Fidgit's concept is excellent, except now it has Magic Mirror (Xatu and Espeon) and buffed Magic Coat to contend with as well as a ton of hyper-powered Ground offense with Doryuuzu and the return of Garchomp, so Ground/Poison probably won't cut it, for example.

    Basically share your 5th Generation experiences and look for the gaps that CAP can fill.
  2. smashlloyd20

    smashlloyd20

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    I'm thinking of an all-purpose weather counter. From my Gen 5 experience, weather is highly dominant in the metagame. If we did a CAP like this though, we'd have to be careful as a Pokemon that could check all forms of weather might end up slightly broken.

    In any case, Air Lock peoples. Stops all weather just like that.
  3. cyberzero

    cyberzero
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    Gen 5 seems to have a lot more weather than the previous Generation, but weather still has a general counter, as you mention. Air Lock is prevalent on many Pokemon already, and there's already a Pokemon for all sorts of weather - Castform. If we want to make a Pokemon that has the ability Air Lock or Forecast in order to deal with weather, it's going to have to do more than just have those abilities in order to be viable in the metagame, otherwise we can just use Pokemon that already exist.

    As for Fidgit's concept, it's still completely viable, but the implementation has to be drastically different. Due to the different speed tiers, we might need to make it dramatically fast or just forget about speed altogether and depend on bulk to be able to use support moves. It would be an interesting experiment as to how we could take the exact same concept and apply it in a different environment.

    Arghonaut's Decentralizer concept could be under some kind of consideration later on during Gen 5, but we have to make sure that we don't allow for another Arghonaut/Zapdos/Tyranitar triangle like last time, because that was a major flaw and it turned out to keep things just as centralized. However, due to the facts that things are so fast and there is a large amount of reasonably hard hitters without any boosting required, Unaware may not be a viable ability once again, so rehashing another Arghonaut probably isn't a good idea.
  4. Ice-eyes

    Ice-eyes Simper Fi

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    I think it would be interesting to see what impact the introduction of a pokemon which is very, very good against the metagame would have. Would the 'best' tactics simply not be used as a result of this poke? Or would teams adapt to still get good use out of the otherwise optimal pokemon?
  5. KidX

    KidX

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    Sandstorm is dominant weather wise in this Gen as well as Gen 4 especially with Doryuzu on the loose. I think the best way is with an Air Lock poke. I honestly think that the poke doesn't need speed because of air lock swift swim etc. is canceled. In my opinion something bulky with good typing would be a great idea. I think that along with air lock mishievious heart would be cool.
  6. Arch

    Arch

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    I was thinking something along the lines of Krilowatt, but 5th Gen edition!
    Ex. The pokemon can negate and counter all types of weather, but not at the same time. Or we could just do an Air Lock pokemon.

    Besides that, I think a pokemon who can act a sort of "auto-hazer" would be a good idea as well.
  7. smashlloyd20

    smashlloyd20

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    @Cyberzero: No Pokemon with air lock actually work in Gen 5. LOL CASTFORM.

    @Arch: Auto-Hazer? How would that work? I mean we have escape button, so if you're suggesting something similar to an auto-forever escape button, that would just be insane.
  8. Arch

    Arch

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    Well, that would really be insane. But I mean something can can come in and negate the positive and negative effects of stat boosts on both sides. Maybe even the effects of Trick Room, Tailwind, etc.

    Hell, why not switch it up and even reverse stat boosts when it switches in? (That wold be extremely hard to balance though...) On second thought, nevermind about the reverse idea...
  9. smashlloyd20

    smashlloyd20

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    You mean like a Stat Lock thing, as in all stat boosts are negated for everybody? Sounds hard to balance, but it's a cool idea.
  10. Arch

    Arch

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    Mine was more along the lines of completely removing the effects upon switch in. But I freaking love the idea you have!

    A pokemon that temporarily removes and blocks positive and negative effects on stats as long as it's in play. Awesome!
  11. SgtWoodsy

    SgtWoodsy

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    So, what you're suggesting is Unaware but better?
  12. Arch

    Arch

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    I guess you could say that. But I thought it would be cool if it were more focused toward both sides. When it's in play it'll prevent either side from using stat boosting moves, and, like you said, act like unaware and allow both sides to ignore the negative and positive effects on stats, including speed.

    I guess it's an Unaware that completely shuts down stats, rather than allowing the user to ignore the opponents. This pokemon would make a great utility and wall.
  13. SgtWoodsy

    SgtWoodsy

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    I personally think it's a horrible idea, since we would learn very, very little from it as Arghonaut does more or less the same thing (since ignoring stats is more or less the same thing as "temporarily shutting down stats") and the idea behind CAP is to "explore and understand the competitive Pokémon metagame by designing, creating, and playtesting new Pokémon concepts".

    Sorry for the long sentence.
  14. smashlloyd20

    smashlloyd20

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    The idea here is different from Unaware. It's sort of a worse Unaware, as it negates your boosts also. I think it has cool potential in preventing brokenness.

    Those are my thoughts anyway.
  15. SgtWoodsy

    SgtWoodsy

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    Here's a challenge for you (Arch, you can get in on this too if you want, since you came up with the idea)

    Unaware:
    Upon switch-in, all of your opponent's stat boosts bar Speed are "lowered" to 0 (or base level). Upon switch-out, your opponent's stat boosts are "returned" to their original levels.

    Please explain what your theoretical ability does in a similar way to which I have.
  16. Arch

    Arch

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    It isn't just ignoring stats, it prevents the use of stat boosters as well. I think to make it stand out, it would also ignore the boosts weather and moves like Trick Room and Tailwind give on both sides. The thing is, this isn't Arghonaut or his metagame, nor is the idea here the same.


    Edit: Why it's different from Unaware. Upon switch in, both sides stat boosts, including Speed and the boosting effects of weather (and moves such as Trick Room) are "lowered" to the "base level", stat boosting moves are negated, and the secondary effects of attacks that lower or raise stats are negated. Upon switch out yadda yadda yadda.


    iDunno, exactly! A pokemon that forces the opponent to the very basics. How would the metagame react if a pokemon forces it back to square one, and makes it stay there? (Not including status, crits, flinch, etc of course.)
    UpQuark360 likes this.
  17. iDunno

    iDunno

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    This is actually a pretty cool idea if I'm understanding this right. If I'm correct this is kind of a bare-bones ability that pretty much pits pokemon together and the one with the basic type-advantage and base stat advantage wins. It could be pretty interesting.

    @Smashlloyd20 below: In that case it sucks
  18. smashlloyd20

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    What? No. This just prevents stat boosts, everything else still happens. Status, crits, flinch, etc.
  19. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight October Surprise
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    Keep in mind we're trying to keep this geared towards concepts, not custom abilities.

    The Fifth Generation has a truckload of unique abilities from Perversity to Magic Mirror to Mummy to the dreaded Inconsistent. Try and focus more on what the metagame is like and what niche role a concept could fulfill.

    For example, a decently bulky mon with 90 Spe and Sand Throw could be tailored to address Doryuuzu given it's fairly spotty coverage, and since Sand Throw grants immunity to Sandstorm it could also make for a fairly good "quickstaller" given the continuing presence of Tyranitar and Hippowdon for the forseeable future.
  20. Plusle

    Plusle

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    Weather is a pretty big starategy. Though instead of countering the sweepers, we should be countering the inducers. Something that checks Tyranitar, Politoed, Hippodown etc. We could give it ability to remove weather and make it a effective mix sweeper to take out the weather inducers, so to cripple the abusers.
  21. Doran Dragon

    Doran Dragon

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    to me. it sounds like unaware mixed with no guard...
  22. BlocksRcool

    BlocksRcool

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    odd thing is that ludicolo can beat all the weather pokemon while benefiting from rain specifically. I think we'll need a 5th gen krilowatt-like pokemon though.. This'll be easier once tiers are cleared up though.

    Just to throw out a random idea, a pokemon with an ability to permanently negate weather upon switch-in (like sand stream but causing the weather to clear out).
  23. Paradox

    Paradox

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    I'd like to see:

    Perfect Partner: I'd love to see a reiteration of "perfect partner", the Voodoom concept, to go with Zoaroak. Zoaroak has such an interesting ability, but its lack of a "perfect partner" makes it somewhat less usable.

    Kingdra of the Sun: Another classic idea (though it's never been used), but now more relevant than ever with the prevalence of weather in the metagame. And while Sun has some better sweepers, it has nothing at the caliber of Manaphy/Kingdra/Dory.

    Or just some things to take advantage of some of the fantastic new abilities that came this Gen, but got terrible distribution, like Wicked Thief on something that can actually take a hit.
  24. Chomper The Sharptooth

    Chomper The Sharptooth

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    I'd say a pokemon to perfectly counter inconsistent, but that probably won't be around for long. A catch-all weather counter would be neat, but a defensive Sand Thrower would probably be better. Given something like a grass typing it can resist Dory's STAB attack and hold its own against Rain teams. It would also leave it weak to Sun and hail teams, the two weakest weathers (Which is coincidentally covered by Thick Fat).

    A strong pursuiter with an ability like Air Lock/Cloud 9 or something that permenantly clears weather could counter most starters, but still won't do much to Tyranitar or Hippodown.
  25. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    Please, don't suggest we rehash ideas and previously used concepts. We are not bringing the current Caps to 5th Gen, and we won't create related Pokemon so we could still have something like them there.


    Weather is a bitch in the game right now so I would love a reliable weather counter. However, before we all decide to do one right now (this is just discussion, remember), the controversy surrounded Pokemon like Politoed has them being "suspect" in a way. We don't know if they will be banned or just their abilities or whatever else. If something does happen to curb the weather situation, what will happen to the Cap, especially if it was specifically made to counter weather? Of course, we'd have to make a good fighter regardless...
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