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5th Gen Concept Theoreymoning

Discussion in 'Create-A-Pokémon Project' started by Deck Knight, Dec 12, 2010.

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  1. Rising_Dusk

    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Dec 27, 2009
    This is exactly the issue with the concept. A ton of Pokemon are exactly like this concept. Then just look at the questions being asked in the concept formulation; they really don't ask any questions regarding what we can get out of the concept, they're just rhetorical and lacking in direction.I don't want to get on your idea, Zebstrika, but you need to consider some of these things when formulating concepts. Let's take a look at the questions from the winning concept for Voodoom, Perfect Mate.
    Is the base pokemon's usefulness (and usage) in the metagame increased as a result of having a "perfect mate"?​
    This is a good question. Does having a perfect mate improve the popularity of the mate? Who knows! That's something we can learn.
    What strategies are more effective for the base pokemon, as a result of having a perfect teammate?​
    This is also a good question; does the mate play any differently now that it has something 'perfect' to fall back on? This is something we can learn about inter-Pokemon synergy.
    What are the most effective aspects of the new pokemon, for purposes of making a great teammate with the base pokemon?​
    This is the best question for many reasons. This question is asking what actually makes something a good partner in the first place! We all have a few good ideas for answers to this, but getting the opportunity to actually check it with a CAP project is exceptional. We learned a lot from this question in particular.
    Is the new pokemon viable in the metagame without the base pokemon as a teammate?​
    This sort of question is an afterthought, but it's still good nonetheless. Does the CAP need its partner? Or must a good OU partner be perfectly viable on its own as well? We know the answer, having done Voodoom, but we didn't at first. For reference, the questions are all answered here.

    Those are the sorts of questions you want to ask, not something like "How would a Pokemon like this be made?" That isn't the sort of question to be asking, because it doesn't even discuss what the Pokemon does by itself or to/with the metagame. Focus those questions on the Pokemon and what it can or cannot do, and most of all on what you think it might do but aren't sure about.
  2. Zebstrika


    Oct 3, 2010
    Yeah, and if I really try to give it less support than them (i.e. Froslass sets up lots of Spikes which can help with phazing) than it won't be a good pokemon anymore.
  3. Yogi Bear.

    Yogi Bear.

    Jan 3, 2009
    Concept: Infinite Field-Effect Support MK II

    Description: An alternative method of setting up field effects.

    Justification: Rather than try to come up with an anti-weather pokemon, I thought up of a PRO-weather pokemon instead. Create a pokemon that is able to create field effects that last for an infinite amount of turns, but is unable to create them without moves. That is to say, in order to make use of this effect, one of its moves must be Sunny Day, Rain Dance, Sandstorm, or Hail.

    Since it IS possible that the auto-inducing part will make this CAP Pokemon outclassed by DroughTales, DrizzleToad, Ttar, Hippo, and Abomasnow, additional moves like Gravity, Trick Room, Wonder Room and other field effects that at present have no Pokemon capable of auto-inducing them should be in the move-pool for two reasons. 1) If this Pokemon is deemed unsatisfactory for weather support, it still has a unique niche to fall back on. 2)It lets us see whether or not field effects are only "gimmicky" because they have not been given reasonable competitive prowess, or if their effects are truly not worth using.


    • What about the abilities Drought, Drizzle, Sand Stream, and Snow Warning ake them so good for Weather Teams? Is it the auto-inducing effect or the infinite effect?
    • How competitively viable are Trick Room, Gravity, Wonder Room and "lesser" field effects?
    • Given that this Pokemon can have ANY field condition move, does there need to be some sort of reveal on this Pokemon so the opponent knows which ones it has? (Think Rotom-A)
    • Follow-Up to Previous Question (assumes yes to previous): Would four separate CAP Pokemon (one for each weather with specialized move pools) need to be created to test this, or would one Pokemon that is restricted somehow by form be created?
    • Would Infinite Weather be better if it was created by a Move or ability?
    Explanation: Test Strategical Power of Weather abilities by giving a Pokemon only one of the desirable effects of Weather abilities. Otherwise, Test Strategical Power of more "gimmicky" strategies to test for competitive possibilities of future generations of games.

    Possibly Conclusions From this CAP:

    If CAP > Auto-inducers: The auto-inducing aspect of Weather abilities is detrimental to Weather Teams. Infinite Field Effects would prefer to be created by a Move rather than an ability.

    If CAP = Auto-Inducers: Infinite Weather is by itself useful. It receives little benefit from how it is created.

    If CAP < Auto-Inducers: The Loss of a Move Slot to create Weather is an absolutely horrid idea and it's only uses are as a backup method for 1) creating infinite weather or 2) for destroying infinite weather that is beneficial to the opponent.
  4. Auraknight


    Mar 17, 2009
    A Tricky Opponent

    The offensive Pokemon metagame has always revolved around speed. It is very arguable that what makes weather teams threatening is not the power of their moves, but the speed of the users of those moves. Abilities such as Sand Throw, Chlorophyll, Swift Swim and Speed Boost are so powerful because of the effect they had on a Pokemon's speed. whilst the new ability Mischievous Heart has weakened the emphasis on speed somewhat by enabling priority on otherwise normal moves, there still remains in the 5th Gen Metagame a stronger emphasis than ever on being faster than your opponent.

    What if we could create a Pokemon that, either through using concepts of move priority, tailwind, trick room (either by functioning exceptionally well in it or being consistently able to set it up), by lowering the speed of opponents or by being exceptionally fast itself (note that the latter option would need careful balancing to prevent further centralization around speed) could lessen the impact of speed in the Pokemon metagame? What effects would this have?

    • Why is speed so important to the Pokemon metagame?
    • How can we change this emphasis?
    • Is it even possible to have a metagame where speed does not play a central role?
    • If we were to create a Pokemon that caused such an effect, which low-speed pokemon who are greatly hindered by this could become viable?
    • Would certain team styles (such as weather) become unviable in a metagame where there speed is no longer such an asset?
    • When speed is eliminated as a factor, what becomes the next most important property which defines the success of a Pokemon?
  5. Wyverii

    is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    May 1, 2008
    Closed due to upcoming CaP project.
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