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BW Ubers 6 Sandy Beasts

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by Donkey, Apr 25, 2012.

  1. Donkey

    Donkey

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    528
    Introduction:

    What's up smogon, Donkey here. Normally I post RMTs on the PO forums, but I'm posting this here to show off my team to a much more solid group of uber players. In the last RMT I posted on the PO forums, someone suggested that I replace Chansey with a Lanturn arguing that Lanturn WALLS specs ogre...which it doesn't.

    Anyways, onto the team. This team is probably the best team I've built. It's currently sitting at rank one on PO and peaked around 1470 on smogon. My old team had lots of problems with taunt and a few offensive cores, but this one has very few weaknesses since it's a lot more balanced. Sand is incredibly anti-meta in ubers, and when used well it can be nearly impossible to beat. To use this team successfully, you have to focus on wearing down opposing weather starters, getting up hazards, and preserving Excadrill for a late game sweep. Groudon and Kyogre have a very hard time staying alive against this team.

    Changes BOLDED -- will edit descriptions later

    At a Glance:
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    In Depth:

    [​IMG]

    Tyranitar (M) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 64 Atk / 184 SDef / 8 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Superpower
    - Stone Edge
    - Pursuit

    Tyranitar is one of the best anti-leads in the current uber metagame. It guarantees you sand 100% of the time, and also acts as a check to some of the common non-weather leads. Lum Berry absorbs Dark Void and Spore, allowing Superpower to bring Darkrai and Smeargle down to their focus sashes, which are taken out by sand. Tyranitar single-handedly prevents losing a pokemon to sleep and shuts down smashpass. Stone Edge is mainly a filler move to hit things hard on switches and stop Ho-Oh/Rayquaza from setting up (although Arceus-Rock can switch in on both of these). However, Pursuit is the most important move on the set. Since Ferrothorn can't really take specs Water Spouts, my usual switch-in for Kyogre is Giratina. Eventually, my opponent catches on to this and locks themselves into Ice Beam. At this point, I'll go into Tyranitar, easily take the Ice Beam, and do about 45% with Pursuit as Kyogre is called back, quickly wearing it down. Pursuit is also nice to use on Palkia or Reshiram after they Draco Meteor and drop to -2. Stealth Rocks rack up switch-in damage and wear down the opponent's weather inducer.

    Possible Changes: Roar or Dragon Tail could be used instead of Stone Edge. This would rack up more hazard damage, while still preventing Ho-Oh/Rayquaza from setting up. Roar is also guaranteed to stop smashpass. Ice Beam can also work to help deal with opposing Gliscors and still hit Rayquaza. Similarly, Fire Blast could be used to hit Ferrothorn/Forretress/Skarmory, but I prefer having an all physical Tyranitar to optimize my EVs.

    [​IMG]

    Excadrill (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Rapid Spin

    Changed to Life Orb, Rock Slide, and added more speed.

    Excadrill is a great cleaner and revenge killer. Any team, offensive or stall, needs a pokemon that can sweep late game. Excadrill fits this role perfectly with Sand Rush. However, weather inducers such as Groudon, Rayquaza and Kyogre are the biggest threats to Excadrill since they stop it's sweep. Defensive Ho-Oh can also be annoying since Shadow Claw doesn't hit it very hard. This shows how well Arceus-Rock and Giratina synergize with Exca. Rockceus can switch in on virtually any of Rayquaza or Ho-Oh's moves and OHKO back, while Giratina takes hits from Kyogre all day. Groudon is also worn down by Earthquake spam + hazards pretty quickly (especially if I can burn it). Shadow Claw is specifically for Giratina-O. Rock Slide doesn't do enough damage to break Gira-O, so I prefer using Shadow Claw to help me spin. This being so, Earthquake hits Giratina-A harder because of STAB. Skarmory does completely wall this set, but at the expense of Excadrill getting free rapid spins. Finally, it's EVd to outspeed Scarf Terrakion in sand while still maximizing its bulk. Excadrill not only can sweep, but provides great defensive support.

    Possible Changes: Lum Berry breaks Giratina-A easily, but it means that leftover recovery is lost and Exca is worn down faster. Air Balloon works well too, since then Exca only takes resisted SR damage. I wouldn't recommend life orb, since it means you can't spam spins vs skarmory.

    [​IMG]

    Arceus-Rock @ Stone Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Judgment
    - Calm Mind
    - Recover

    Added Calm Mind

    Arceus-Rock has a very special role on this team. It's main purpose is to check Rayquaza and Ho-Oh, which can cause the rest of the team trouble. Rockceus outspeeds both and OHKOs with Judgment, and can take +1 Life Orb Earthquakes from Rayquaza. Ho-Oh can't do anything to it besides land a burn. It also walls Specs Reshiram in sand, and Will-O-Wisps Groudon (and other physical attackers) with the benefit that common sun abusers such as Reshiram or Ho-Oh can't switch in on the expected Will-O-Wisp as they would vs Giratina. Non-Timid SD Arceus is outsped and burned while Arceus takes +2 Extremespeeds with ease. Physical attackers such as Excadrill, Garchomp, or Terrakion are walled by Ferrothorn and Giratina. With Perish Song, Rockceus also phases and checks sub HC Zekrom, BU Dialga, CM Arceus forms (The forms that threaten it (Fight, Grass, Water, Steel) are walled by Giratina-A), and any last poke. In sand, Arceus also is able to stall out Mewtwo, Palkia, and Dialga. With Gliscor spreading toxic, Arceus's becomes very threatening. It's not an easy poke to take down.

    Possible Changes: Calm Mind can be used instead of Perish Song. Arceus-Rock can then setup on Palkia and other special attackers, and sometimes pull off a sweep. Since Kyogre is commonly brought it to check it, if you predict right you can hit Kyogre on the switch.

    [​IMG]

    Ferrothorn (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
    - Leech Seed
    - Spikes
    - Protect
    - Power Whip

    Ferrothorn is a self-explanatory poke. With its evs maxed out in special defense, its a solid check to TG Manaphy, CM/Bulky Kyogre, and Scarf ogre. Protect helps scout scarfers, although Lustrous Palkia must be watched out for. It's water resistance and steel typing makes it a great option on sand, and synergizes well with Tyranitar and Arceus-Rock. If Arceus-Rock is low health, Ferrothorn also sponges physical attacks, particularly Zekrom. Leech Seed wears down pokes on switch-ins as well.

    Possible Changes: Protect could be replaced with Thunder Wave or Toxic, but I find that Protect helps keep Ferro alive longer.

    [​IMG]

    Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Earthquake
    - Toxic
    - Taunt

    Since this is a wifi team, I always lead with Gliscor vs Groudon. Taunt stops SR, Toxic cripples Groudon for the entire match and stalls offensive Groudon, and sub blocks dragon tail. Gliscor also beats Sub HC Zekrom, dealing over 50% with Earthquake and forcing Dragon Claws or Outrages. Gliscor is also great because it can switch in on Giratina-A, stall mons such as Chansey, Ferro, Forry, Skarm, etc, and setup a sub, Taunt, or Toxic/Earthquake on the switch. It helps put a lot of pressure on any offensive team with a few stall pokes. Toxic also cripples CM Arceus forms, which can be very important. Reaching 240 speed, it can Toxic Ho-Oh before it can sub, Earthquake Tentacruel, and Sub/Toxic stall any slower mon. Poison heal also means it can absorb Will-O-Wisps for the team, which is very important for Excadrill. Gliscor is the most fun poke to use on the team, and by far the MVP. Since it's set is unexpected, it can really do damage early on.

    Possible Changes: You can run either a larger speed creep to outspeed other Gliscors, or a smaller speed creep to ensure that Ferrothorn Power Whips don't break subs. Protect is always nice to have on Gliscor, but there isn't really a moveslot available.

    [​IMG]

    Giratina @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 248 HP / 244 SDef / 16 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Roar

    Special Defensive Giratina + Tyranitar is as close as you can get to a counter for Specs Kyogre without using Shedninja (lol) or Gastrodon. As I mentioned before, Giratina baits Ice Beam allowing TTar to Pursuit. Giratina is also a backup SD Arceus check. Without physical defense EVs, it can still tank one Shadow Claw and get a burn/remove lum berry. Gira also phases CM Arceus forms and Mewtwo; racking up hazard damage with Roar. Last but definitely not least, it spinblocks. Forretress can setup on it, but in that case I usually try to predict around it. Gliscor can taunt it and wear Forry down. Giratina is incredibly durable, and undoubtedly the best Kyogre check/Spin blocker in the game. Although this set is taunt weak, the rest of my team doesn't have that many problems with it.

    Possible Changes: Dragon Tail instead of roar, but then sub Mewtwo, sub Ho-Oh, sub Exca, and sub Steelceus all become big problems. The lower pp means that Giratina has to use its moves more carefully as well.

    Conclusion:
    Thanks for reading, here's the importable for anyone who wants to try out this team. Hope you guys enjoyed. I will be posting a complete threat list when I get the chance.
    Shoutouts to Faint, Dotteh, Rudy, Loco, Hugen, Syrim, Princess Bri, Soulwind, Noodlez and all my PO bros.

    Importable:

    Show Hide
    Tyranitar (M) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 64 Atk / 184 SDef / 8 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Superpower
    - Stone Edge
    - Pursuit

    Excadrill (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 64 HP / 252 Atk / 192 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Earthquake
    - Shadow Claw
    - Rapid Spin

    Arceus-Rock @ Stone Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Judgment
    - Perish Song
    - Recover

    Ferrothorn (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
    - Leech Seed
    - Spikes
    - Protect
    - Power Whip

    Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Earthquake
    - Toxic
    - Taunt

    Giratina @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 248 HP / 244 SDef / 16 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Roar
  2. Donkey

    Donkey

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    reserved for threat list
  3. Manaphy

    Manaphy

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    Messages:
    695
    This team is sexy. I can't really see anything wrong with it. Palkia could cause you troubles since it scores a super-effective hit on everything but it shouldn't be hard to play around. The team is incredibly solid and anti-meta.

    also I luvdisc'd <3
  4. shrang

    shrang I AM CHAMPION CHRISTMAS!!
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

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    You're 6-0ed by CM Fighting Arceus, just saying. Sure, Giratina can take a hit and phaze it out with Roar, maybe burn it, but that is all you're doing to it. It can easily switch into Tyranitar or Ferrothorn, set up a Calm Mind and then just destroy you. You have absolutely nothing to take it on, lol. You're also lacking a decent SpecsOgre switch-in, although I guess with Sand up, Giratina and Ferrothorn can switch in enough times to weaken Water Spout to the point where it can't hurt you any more. Although it would make you a bit weaker to Excadrill, I'd suggest changing Gliscor to Lugia, since Fighting Arceus will have trouble breaking through it, and you can just use Toxic on it to prevent it doing anything.

    Lugia @ Leftovers
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD
    Nature: Impish
    - Substitute / Reflect
    - Toxic
    - Dragon Tail
    - Roost

    Have fun.
  5. Donkey

    Donkey

    Joined:
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    Arceus-Fight is a minimal threat. With some hazards and sand up, it will be forced to recover almost every time it switches in due to its lack of leftovers. It does not get unlimited setup opportunities, either: it can't always set up on Ferrothorn or Tyranitar if I leech seed or attack. With hazards, sand, and damage from Ferro or TTar, it won't have much time to setup Calm Minds. If Gliscor is under a sub, I can toxic and cripple it (since Arceus-Fight carries Ice Beam, it's a fairly common switch in on Gliscor and may have to switch in late game to break the sub). If it does switch in vs Ferrothorn or Tyranitar near full health, I'd just go into Giratina (sp defensive) which takes a whopping 25-30% from +0 Ice Beam. I can easily burn it if I'd like or leave it vulnerable to a toxic later on, and then phase it. If Arceus-Fight Calm Minds on my switch to Giratina, using Ice Beam will be at the expense of not getting recovery and being at even lower health when it switches in later. Once it is in the 50% range, Excadrill KOs. It's not hard to wear down. If Arceus-Fight is bulky, Giratina laughs at it and it's an even smaller threat. Adding Lugia would make me very Groudon weak, since it could set up SR for free. Lastly, keep in mind that Arceus-Fight only has 8 Ice Beams to use due to pressure, which is easy to stall out.


    Calcs:
    Show Hide
    Detailed Result: 252 SpAtk Arceus-Fighting Ice Beam vs 248 HP/244 SpDef Giratina (+SpDef) : 25.05% - 29.82%
    Detailed Result: 252 +1 SpAtk Arceus-Fighting Ice Beam vs 248 HP/244 SpDef Giratina: 40.95% - 48.51%
    Detailed Result: 252 Atk Excadrill (+Atk) Earthquake vs 0 HP/0 Def Arceus-Fighting: 41.73% - 49.08%


    In terms of Specs Ogre, once again, Giratina walls it pretty hard. It takes around 60% from Ice Beam which is bad, but it takes 45% from Specs Water Spout in rain. This means I can pressure rest stall 4 Water Spouts easily. If Kyogre Ice Beams, I go into Tyranitar and Pursuit trap it, taking very little damage from Ice Beam. Sp. Def Giratina is one of the best switch ins for Specs Ogre in the game.

    If I predict poorly, obviously both of these could be a problem, but that's true for nearly any poke.

    Thanks for the rate!
  6. Marth

    Marth
    is a Past SPL Winner

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    It's a very ignorant statement to just say "CM Arceus fight 6-0s", as a person whos used cm arceus fight vs and used this team against arceus fight, i can tell you it really isn't a threat at all, it cant really do much damage to giratina at all and he can phase him out all day, eventually the opponents team gets worked down by hazards etc and towards the end gets psonged, also it cant come in on gliscor or even ferro for that instance since it just gets seeded and he goes straight into giratina and with hazard damage is forced to recover.

    a much bigger threat would be CM Mewtwo who can actually hurt giratina.

    asides from that a very solid team and great job with it donkey.
  7. shrang

    shrang I AM CHAMPION CHRISTMAS!!
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

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    Firstly, you're all assuming that Ferrothorn can get 4 layers of hazards straight off. That practically never happens unless your opponent just sucks. Seriously, I'd just lead with Fighting Arceus if I had it on my team and I played this team. You wouldn't even know which Arceus the opponent is running either since they don't show you which form in Team Preview. I'd presume you'd just lead with Tyranitar or something. There is absolutely nothing that can threaten it whatsoever. Then, the Fighting Arceus would just Calm Mind up as you go switch to Giratina, then take as you say, about 45% to Ice Beam then phaze it out. If Giratina had Recover or something, I'd say it's a decent answer, but it doesn't have reliable recovery. Fighting Arceus can easily come in again and again (and don't tell me hazards, because you're going to find at least 2-3 free turns before they start getting taxing to Arceus at all. Before that, he would have easily blown massive holes in your team just by Calm Minding up, then firing off attacks. Giratina can't take Fighting Arceus forever either, since with Sleep mechanics and RestTalk, you're easily getting 3HKOed, something which you're not going to be recovering quickly enough from.

    So don't call me ignorant ArkhiMarth, I've used Sand teams in Ubers for a very long time, now, probably longer than anyone in 5th gen, and I can tell you that Fighting Arceus is probably one of the biggest threats to Sand teams to exist, and unfortunately, I don't think this team has an adequate enough response to it.
  8. ssbbm

    ssbbm

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    1,020
    I also see a weakness to (along with Arceus-Fighting and CM Arceus-Ground) Shaymin-S.

    I guess you could try running Ho-oh over something; possibly Gliscor? It hurts you in the sense that you have nothing to beat RP Groudon besides Giratina, but Giratina is already a pretty good counter, and unless RP Groudon runs Fire Punch, Ferrothorn can check it in a pinch.

    Furthermore, the Zekrom problem that will be opened up can easily be dealt with by your Excadrill; in a pinch, Ferrothorn checks it too, so it's not really a big problem.

    Try running something like

    Ho-oh @ Leftovers / Life Orb
    252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd (you can speed creep to beat Kyogre, etc)
    -Substitute
    -Brave Bird
    -Sacred Fire
    -Roost

    By running Ho-oh, you can lure and weaken Giratina, Kyogre and Lugia; these Pokemon all stop a Excadrill sweep.
  9. Donkey

    Donkey

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
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    528
    Giratina-A is a pretty good check to Shaymin. Since I have roar, it works almost as well as Ho-Oh. CM Arceus Ground is never used, and if by some odd reason I come across one, Ferrothorn can beat it.

    Unless you knew my Arceus form in advance, it's very risky to lead with Arceus-Fighting and unlikely that you would. There isn't really a point to reveal it that early on. You have to also realize that ubers is incredibly situational. Even if you did get that early momentum against my team in that situation you described, I'd still probably find a chance to rest later on, build up hazards, and eventually kill it off with the method I described. It is only in very specific situations that Fighting Arceus becomes a threat, and only if I play bad. Believe it or not, I know how to predict, and I can use predictions to beat Fighting Arceus. Once I know it's a fighting arceus, I will play completely differently.
  10. puregenius

    puregenius

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Messages:
    198
    genius team

    anyway i agree with ssbbm

    i also think u should run hippo over ttar since he pretty much covers the role of gliscor and at least this way u can win weather wars with groudon (i think) with a combination of toxic and slack off, which reminds me he gets recovery

    ho-oh over gliscor
    hippo over ttar

    oh and ho-oh helps with the fighting arceus problem
  11. shrang

    shrang I AM CHAMPION CHRISTMAS!!
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

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    Wait, what Arceus forms would be dangerous against Fighting Arceus? Unless you're running Psychic Arceus (ridiculously rare), Ghost Arceus (not likely, since you're running Giratina), Flying Arceus (lol), there is absolutely no danger in sending Fighting Arceus against your team. Even if you know I have Fighting Arceus from the get go and send in Giratina, I haven't lost anything at all. I just switch it out (no hazards) and bring it in again when Giratina disappears. I repeat, Fighting Arceus can set up or just plain attack a lot of things on your team with minimum risk. It doesn't even need to set up if it comes in on Ferrothorn or something like that, it can just attack you and blow holes in your team. It is the one dictating play, not you. The thing is even if you know it's Fighting Arceus. You say you'll play differently, but there really isn't much you can do differently. You say you can set up hazards on and kill it off, but how the hell are you setting up hazards when it's just coming in every other turn and forcing you to defend? Sure, you force it out with Giratina, but then it's just coming back in straight away while you try to go to Ferrothorn. You have absolutely no deterrent for it whatsoever.
  12. Donkey

    Donkey

    Joined:
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    Just because you play Sand in ubers doesn't mean you're an expert...no team can perfectly check every threat to your questionably high standards. I'm not sure whether or not you've read my previous posts. If you are a good player, Arceus Fighting can be played around; it's that simple. Arceus-Fighting only becomes a problem if you aren't good and can't make smart decisions. Unless you were using Arceus-Fighting as if you knew my team and my exact strategy for handling it, it wouldn't ever become as big a threat as you describe it to be and the situations you describe would likely never arise. Since I'm explaining how to handle it, you can obviously come up with a counter way to beat my method of beating it, but that doesn't mean you would do it in game with no prior knowledge of my playstyle. "You have absolutely no deterrent for it whatsoever." is probably the stupidest statement I've ever heard...running Lugia or Ho-Oh would make my team much, much weaker to other things, and Arceus-Fight is only getting free switch-ins if I play badly.
  13. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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    I agree with Donkey! Give him a break Shrang, ffs... You come in this thread and say Fighting Arceus 6-0s this team, which is a gross overstatement, and your attitude is just rude and hostile.

    Instead of attacking him, you could simply suggest him a way to deal with it, and be done with it. He has reached number one, for crying out loud, so he must know something right? If he really was that Arceus-Fighting weak, he would already have realized it...

    I am not saying that it isn't a threat, just not as big as you make it be. And as Donkey said, he is not an idiot, so Arceus won't be getting as many free switches as you seem to imply. Leech Seed is one of the best moves to spam early game and totally fucks up Arceus, wearing it down along with SS damage and healing Giratina-A, so Ferrothorn can surely keep Arceys at bay. Gliscor can Toxic on the predicted switch, Giratina-A can burn it, Excadrill can hit it with EQ and force it to Recover, or 2hko if SR is up, and Rock Arceus can WoW it too, making it take 18% each turn, without even counting entry hazards damage.

    Maybe you could try Hippo + Ho-Oh instead of Gliscor + Ttar, as a guy above mentioned, but then SpecsOgre would be a much bigger problem so i don't really know.

    Anyway amazing team, congrats and luvdisc'ed!
  14. shrang

    shrang I AM CHAMPION CHRISTMAS!!
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

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    I'm being rude and hostile? All I said was that I can foresee a Pokemon giving him lots of trouble, and I'm explaining how it would give him that trouble. I even gave him a proposed solution to the problem. I never said this was a bad team, I'm just spotting a weakness which I believe to be a massive one. You are all the ones who could listen with an open mind.

    Back to the actual Fighting Arceus argument, no alexwolf and Donkey, you are not getting my point. I know you can play around Fighting Arceus, because a good player can do that. However, you are not playing against a computer. If your opponent is competent, he can easily play around your methods of playing around him. If he is competent, he is the one dictating play with that Fighting Arceus and you will get no opportunity to act on your own game plan. I still don't get how this "residual damage" is getting onto Fighting Arceus at all. Giratina would be busy phazing it otherwise it'll just die, Ferrothorn gets killed, Gliscor gets killed, everything gets killed apart from Giratina. Unless you go double-switching into Giratina-A like every turn (which achieves nothing), Arceus easily gets his switch-ins. What's the worst that could happen? He gets Toxic'd by Gliscor. Oh well, he can't stick around forever, I suppose, but he can still just attack you with his two move coverage and still smash holes into your team before it dies. Hell, I said you could lead with Fighting Arceus from the get go, you could also bait in Giratina and hurt it first, then all the opponent has to do is just switch in Fighting Arceus into Tyranitar, and just attack. No Calm Minds are needed. Since Sand is actually important to your team, Tyranitar is a huge source of switch-ins, and you're likely to keep it alive because other teams have their own weather inducers which you want to outlast with Tyranitar. When I say you have "no deterrent", I'm not overstating it either. Seriously, which one of your Pokemon, with the exception of Giratina, is winning a one-on-one duel with Fighting Arceus? Unless the Arceus is under 50% (in which Excadrill can then KO it), all of them risk losing or taking heaps of damage. Do you stay in and get killed, or do you go to Giratina-A (which again, doesn't get you very far at all)? See what I mean about getting your hand forced?
  15. Manaphy

    Manaphy

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    He does have a point, CM Arceus-Grass can also bother you because Ferrothorn can't actually hurt it. I faced a team with this exact set-up and managed get Giratina Rested, and then set-up with Grassceus. However it appears that the situations described haven't shown up enough to impede your progress, and replacing Gliscor would result in other weaknesses. (as well as the fact that Gliscor is simply fun to play with.)


    It's impossible for a team to be perfect and you will have to play around things, but I'd say this team comes pretty damn close.
  16. Donkey

    Donkey

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    528
    Giratina is a deterrent when combined with the rest of the team, as I said in my first post. The way you write your posts makes it sounds like Arceus will NEVER have to recover and can setup 100% of the time vs anything on my team. The only time it can set up vs anything completely safely and freely is turn 1 or after I KO an opponent's pokemon. If Arceus-Fight gets a switch in later on in the game and is hit with an attack, seeded, burned, or toxic'd it will be forced to recover, and when you account for sand and hazard damage it won't have as many chances to setup as you think. If I get SR and 1 layer of spikes up, it would be taking 25% + 6% from sand every switch in. Add a burn, and it would be taking an additional 12.5%. It would spend most of its time recovering rather than setting up boosts. Since Arceus-Fight CANNOT break through Giratina quickly, I generally find time to setup at least a layer or two of hazards and burn it. It is very realistic to get up a couple layers; I might even sacrifice Ferro if I thought I didn't need it that much.

    In regards to the turn 1 situation: if I lead with Tyranitar and my opponent leads with Arceus-Fighting, and Turn 1 we assume Arceus-Fight Calm Minds (it might not even want to risk using Calm Mind in fear of Stealth Rocks) and I switch to Giratina, Arceus would lose 6% of it's health. Consequently, I could choose to Will-O-Wisp or phase on the expected Ice Beam next turn. If I Will-O-Wisp, it would have lost 24.5% from sand damage and the burn in two turns. I'd still have 60% of my health left, and then I would either predict a Recover or Rest predicting an Ice Beam and play from there. Every turn, Arceus-Fighting is now losing 18.5%. If I phase it at ANY time, the next time it switches in, it cannot safely attack or setup, especially with hazards.

    Double switching is a great deterrent as well. I don't understand how you say "it does nothing". Once I get a burn or a few hazards up, double switching forces recovers, and puts the game far in my favor. Even if I play a good player, I pride myself in the fact that I can outplay them. Arceus-Fighting only becomes a problem when the opponent knows in advance EVERY single way I will try to beat Arceus-Fighting, and since this isn't obvious to you, I don't see why it will be that obvious to them. I don't really have anything else to say on the topic of Arceus-Fighting except that you're really blowing this out of proportion. Many Arceus-Fightings used by Smogon players run Dark Pulse instead of Ice Beam, at which case it is laughable. You assume that my opponent can easily outplay me or someone using my team, in the end, it comes down to predictions.
  17. cheap_uber_battler

    cheap_uber_battler

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    17
    First of all, really nice team Donkey and impressive peaks as ever from you. Sand is difficult to use for many players, and I am a fan of the way you play Tyranitar to wear down weather bringers aswell as stopping those pesky smashpass teams. Also Gliscor is such an amazing troll.

    It is incredibly easy to critique a team when knowing every single move/item/EV's and there are a few points that should be considered when doing so.

    Firstly, Donkey built this team and so knows the playstyle better than anyone else reviewing it with a quick glance. In comparison to Team Groundon for example, I'd say this team is more 'expert difficulty' to use. Lots of people will try to ladder using this team now it is published, and yet I doubt anyone will come close to the sort of ranks Donkey has acheived using it. It is easy to point out a weakness to the likes of CM Fighting Arceus when viewing the entire teams movesets, but in reality, anyone battling a player of Donkeys calibre unscouted will find it as easy to set up as theorised.

    You also need to consider usage statistics when teambuilding and cover the most used threats first and foremost. A lot of the proposed changes would create weaknesses to other more common threats. For example, Hippowdon would not be able to pursuit trap locked Kyogre. Replacing Gliscor would lose an invaluable member for shutting down many stall teams with a fast taunt.

    It is important to remember that no team is perfect and will have threats to some extent. However, more successful teams will have fewer, more obscure threats, or combinations of threats and a lot of the time, an adept player will still have a gameplan to play around them.
  18. gookie

    gookie Administrator
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    Fighting-Arceus destroying 5/6 of this team is not a point that can be dismissed. By no means does it straight 6-0 Donkey but if paired with something like Specs Ogre and/or Deo-S combined with a smart opponent it's going to be very difficult to play around.

    With sand down a lot of special sweepers can wreak havoc upon your team, Mewtwo is only soft checked by Giratina-A and takes a tonne from +1 Ice Beam; Darkrai, if Life Orb or brought out on a revenge kill against something that's not full hp Lum Tyranitar will be a massive pain, Gliscor can't be slept but can't do much back either, furthermore, without Life Orb Excadrill can't revenge kill it properly unless it's at around 75%. Without the Sp.Def boost from sand Arceus Rock can't stand up to Lustrous Palkia on sun, rain is somewhat manageable but Ferrothorn is still taking heavy damage from Fire Blast. Although Arceus Rock isn't OHKOed (outside of sand) Life Orb and Choice Specs Draco Meteors still hurt it heavily.

    Opposing Gliscor that are faster and have taunt walls the entire team save for Rock Arceus, who also fails to deliver crippling damage. Although your own Gliscor can just stay in and spam Earthquake I guess; if Ferrothorn gets burned be prepared for a really annoying 'mon to face.

    Substitute, Swords Dance Garchomp is also really irritating to face. Gliscor can take a hit but can't do much back. It can really only set up on Tyranitar or a miss from something else, but if it gets to +2 be ready for some extreme hurting.

    With that in mind I recommend a Skarmory over Gliscor, safely walling most physical sweepers and having the best ExtremeKiller counter in the game, it also provides Spikes. Then I recommend Scarf Jirachi with Trick over Ferrothorn, as it allows you semi-reliably check Mewtwo and Darkrai (and Shaymin-S, which is also very irritating), and still deal with Manaphy with Trick. It can also take Draco Meteors in a pinch (it takes over 50% though). The addition of Jirachi gives a faster Pokemon to use when sand is not up and a moderately bulky steel.

    Despite what I pointed out this is still a very good team! Good luck playing with it and I understand if you don't want to take my suggestions on account of somewhat wrecking the dynamic (I love Gliscor too D:).
  19. Blim

    Blim
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
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    As a very experienced ubers ladder player, I can say that arceus-fighting is very rare on the ladder, so while it may seem like a big threat on paper, the fact is that you'll rarely encounter it so it isn't a big deal. Plus, even if you donkey were to encounter a fighting arceus on the ladder, it's most likely he'll be able to out-play his opponent due to his skill level vs most people on the ladder. For tournament / high level play, yea, arceus fighting is used much more, but for the ladder you don't need to go out of your way to account for threats you'll rarely face . But on the other hand I can agree with shrang and poppy, when a pokemon straight-up crushes 5/6 of your team without blinking an eye, you can't just say "well i can just play around that by doing this and that etc and out-predict my opponent." Either way, it still should be recognized as massive threat that shouldn't be easily dismissed.

    If you an easier way to deal with arceus fighting, then either ho-oh or the lugia set shrang posted works fine over gliscor, ditto for mewtwo although you'll lose some defensive synergy in exchange for offense by going that route. Also, I consider Gliscor to be very overrated in ubers atm anyway, but am not going to go there xD.
  20. Donkey

    Donkey

    Joined:
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    First off, thanks to everyone who's rated and commented about the team!

    @Blim You bring up a good point, this team is designed for the ladder where Arceus-Fight is really uncommon. I wouldn't use this in tournaments.

    @Poppy I added Life Orb Excadrill to help better deal with those threats you mentioned. This also helps break Arceus-Fight. While I acknowledge it can sweep 5/6 members, my main point was that it rarely gets the opportunity to do so. I don't mean to say it isn't a threat at all, I just mean that it's very manageable.
  21. Iceydude168

    Iceydude168

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
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    Hi, Donkey.
    First off, this is a solid team and good job building it. However, as with every team, there are a few threats that can beat it somewhat easily.
    - Arceus-Fight, as mentioned before, beats everything but Giratina, and Giratina can't do a whole lot to it.
    - SubPunch Palkia in non-sand (often Sun) beats this team as thoroughly as Arceus-Fighting (i.e. 5/6 are shredded). Spacial Rend rips through Gliscor (and Giratina won't enjoy taking it either, especially on the switch), Flamethrower/Fire Blast broasts Ferrothorn, Focus Punch beats Tyranitar. Arceus-Rock can sort of handle it if it's healthy, however if it's Burned or Poisoned it will likely lose, moreso when out of Sand.
    - SubDance Garchomp will smash your team if Gliscor misses.
    - Spooky Plate Swords Dance Arceus can trouble your team, especially because Ferrothorn does not carry Thunder Wave. Gliscor can stall for a bit but it falls rather quickly, taking around 51-61% from +2 Shadow Claw, meaning that it's going down really fast. Arceus-Rock is not enjoying Earthquake or Brick Brea, Ferrothorn isn't either. I'm thinking you might send in Ferrothorn to Leech Seed Arceus-Ghost, then stall it out with Gliscor, but both Ferrothorn and Gliscor need to be at really high HP. If Ferrothorn's HP is 3/4 or below when their Arceus-Ghost is sent it it's pretty much GG right there.

    Few more threats I might post later.
    The bulk of the threats to your team are fairly uncommon and I see you having no trouble beating any team that does not carry these specific sets. To beat the specific threats, I suggest a Physically Defensive Lugia like the one suggested before, which beats all the threats bar SpookyDance Arceus. Great team overall.
  22. Donkey

    Donkey

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
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    Thanks for the rate.
    - Already addressed Fighting Arceus.
    - Sub Punch Palkia can be annoying, but Giratina takes only about 55 from Spacial Rend and can phase once. Once I know it has sub, it can't really set up easily, especially on Ferrothorn since sub punch never carries a fire move.
    -Sub Dance Garchomp can't sweep my whole team. Excadrill outspeeds, Arceus-Rock outspeeds, Giratina and Gliscor force Outrages which can then be walled by Ferrothorn. Then, it has a confusion chance. While it is a threat if I miss enough moves for it to get to +4 and have a sub, I can usually handle it.
    - SD Ghostceus is not a threat at all. It literally does nothing to my team. Arceus-Rock can take a +2 Earthquake and doesn't have to worry about Lum Berry or Life Orb, getting an almost guaranteed WoW. Excadrill (which I replaced with Life Orb, gotta update) can easily take it out IF it manages to kill something, since it doesn't have STAB boosted Extremespeed. Additionally, Ferrothorn can take a +2 Brick Break or Earthquake, Leech Seed, and I can Protect stall then make smart switches from there to kill it. It's not by any means "GG from there" when Arceus-Ghost is sent in on a 3/4 health Ferrothorn, since I can take any hit, Leech Seed, then protect. They rarely even carry Brick Break since it causes them damage...Also, Thunder Wave would do nothing except make it harder for me to beat since I can't burn it. The only thing it sets up on safely is Tyranitar...chances are I won't get a situation where I'd even have to switch in Ferrothorn. I'd love to see Arceus Ghost try to set up on anything besides Tyranitar.

    And, once again, adding Lugia means I lose to Stealth Rock Groudon. It isn't a reliable check for Sub Palkia (they carry Thunder) or sub dance garchomp in the sand, of which I can miss whirlwind on -- which is just as likely as missing an Earthquake from Gliscor.
  23. Silver Owns

    Silver Owns

    Joined:
    May 2, 2012
    Messages:
    22
    This. Also donkey there are a few other ways to stop specs kyogre ya know
  24. miao2me

    miao2me

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
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    I tried this team but I found difficulties playing past leftovers offensive palkia, the kind that runs both fire, water and dragon attacks. Man.
  25. TonyFlygon

    TonyFlygon

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2011
    Messages:
    14
    Yo Donkey, congratulations on building such an amazing Uber team man! This team is without a doubt one of the best Uber teams I have ever seen for the ladder. I just read through the comments and realized that one of the most annoying Pokemon in the metagame hasn't been mentioned yet: Stalltwo. The stall varient of what is perhaps the most frightening special sweeper in the game can do a ton of damage to this team. Being such a fast abuser of Taunt, Stalltwo immediately forces Giratina (your primary Mewtwo switch-in) to Struggle, meaning Giratina is no longer an option. Tyranitar and Ferrothorn don't stand a chance against Mewtwo's Taunt + Will-O-Wisp + Recover combination. Gliscor needs his Toxic Orb activated to be able to defeat Stalltwo, which isn't done so easily since it can't risk switching in because Stalltwo could Will-O-Wisp on the switch and your Gliscor doesn't have Protect either. Excadrill can't switch in, and an Earthquake only does a mere 48 to 57% to Mewtwo. This is assuming that Mewtwo runs a specially defensive set. Mewtwo can then Will-O-Wisp to Recover off the damage the next turn. This means it all comes down to Arceus-Rock, who won't appreciate dealing with Stalltwo either. Ofcourse, this set is uncommon, but it's definitely a big threat and a Mewtwo set that should be used more.

    Outside of the threats that have been mentioned plenty of times (*cough*Arceus-Fighting*cough*) there is one more I want to mention. Choice Scarf bluffing Palkia. Whether it's Lustrous Orb, Haban Berry or Expert Belt, as long as it carries Hydro Pump, Fire Blast and Spacial Rend it is a huge threat. Not only does it do a huge number to your team, you don't have any Dragon-type attacks of your own, meaning you can't OHKO opposing Palkia, which could be problematic. Especially since it destroys your entry hazard using Pokemon with the appropriate move. Palkia is easier to handle than Stalltwo though, seeing as hazards and Sandstorm will quickly bring it into Excadrill's Earthquake's killing range.

    Outside of the aforementioned threats such as certain Calm Mind Arceus formes and Substitute + Swords Dance Garchomp I think this team is incredibly solid and especially well designed against common threats. I would recommend trying to squeeze in a Ho-Oh somewhere, but I'm not sure if you should change anything at all. Ho-Oh is amazing against most Calm Mind Arceus and other common threats to Sand. It also helps you abuse opposing Groudon's weather and relieves the Pressure on Giratina as a special wall.

    Again, congratulations on building this fantastic team! (:

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