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Gen 1 6th spot: Rhydon vs. Snorlax

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by moymoy, Dec 9, 2009.

  1. moymoy

    moymoy

    Joined:
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    So I'm making a standard team for a tournie with friends. The rules include no Ubers, species clause, sleep clause, OHKO and evasion clause, and most importantly, NO LEGENDARIES. Without Zapdos, my team dynamic changes slightly. Also, a lot of people are inexperienced (I expect a lot of Dragonites, Alakazams, Gyarados, Snorlax). Games are likely to be half Stadium half link battle. Anyways, here's the team:

    Starmie (likely my lead):
    [​IMG]
    - Blizzard
    - Thunderbolt
    - Thunder Wave
    - Recover

    Relatively safe lead. Fast, able to paralyze. I can always switch to Chansey to take a status

    Gengar (alternate lead for multiple games):
    [​IMG]
    - Thunderbolt
    - Seismic Toss
    - Hypnosis
    - Explosion

    - I definitely need at least one sleeper for the link battles, and Gengar has a lot of utility (in case anyone tries a wrap team). I don't feel like Mega Drain will be very useful, as it doesn't do much damage, and Seismic Toss covers a lot more.

    Tauros:
    [​IMG]
    - Body Slam
    - Earthquake
    - Hyper Beam
    - Blizzard

    Yeah... standard

    Exeggutor:
    [​IMG]
    - Psychic
    - Double Edge
    - Stun Spore
    - Explosion

    I don't feel like I want another sleeper, as paralysis is much more important for this team. Also, as stated earlier, I'm not crazy about Mega Drain (loses to Starmie anyways, and Psychic already does enough to the rocks), and DE helps against Alakazam and Chansey

    Chansey:
    [​IMG]
    - Thunderbolt
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunder Wave
    - Softboiled

    My special sponge, status absorber, and paralyzer. I feel boltbeam will be critical against most of my opponents teams

    Anyways, my team is heavily focused on paralysis, since it tends to be very good in Stadium. As the topic states, my last choice comes down to which slow, powerhouse I want to finish the job after paralysis had ridden my opponents team. here are the movesets:

    Snorlax:
    [​IMG]
    - Body Slam
    - Earthquake
    - Surf
    - Selfdestruct

    With half-Stadium, I don't really expect to be using HB much, unless its worth the sacrifice. Unlike Tauros, Snorlax seems to have a good alternative for abandoning HB.

    Rhydon:
    [​IMG]
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Body Slam
    - Substitute.

    Rhydon seems to hit harder overall, and has some advantages (physical resistance), but ultimately has a lot of moves that OHKO him. Also, I do have Gengar for explosion-coverage.

    Any input would be appreciated. Funny enough, I managed to catch both a Rhydon and Snorlax with 15 Attack DV
  2. Aether Nexus

    Aether Nexus

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    Everything seems fine. As for the Snorlax vs. Rhydon choice, I'd personally go with Rhydon. I actually prefer Golem because Golem can still kill anything Rhydon can and Rhydon only has a bit more HP and Attack but still gets killed the same way as Golem to any of the moves that take them down. Golem also gets Explosion, only reason to really use it.

    If you're going to use Rhydon in the Stadium battle or w/e you mean by that than just replace it for Snorlax. I have no real good information for Stadium use so I guess your Rhydon is stuck with that moveset. I'm not sure if Substitute works for Rhydon but I suppose you can use it on the switch or bring it on on something that will used Thunder Wave and scare it away or take the hit than use EQ or w/e.

    As for Snorlax, if it's not an Amnesia set I'd rather not use it. Sure it's good but your team is fine without it and Rhydon will be better in your team over Rhydon.

    Well, that's all I can offer for right now. It's 1:38 in the morning right now and my eyes are closing on me, so maybe I'll comment more later on when I'm more awake. Good luck with your tournament and kick some ass.

    ~ Aether Nexus
  3. moymoy

    moymoy

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    I am intrigued by the idea of using an Amnesia Lax, as it will be unexpected and can counter a lot of special sweepers. However, I don't know if it fits into my team dynamic. I don't know if boltbeam can be considered redundant, but Chansey and Starmie both use boltbeam, would a 3rd one be useful?

    Also, I originally picked Rhydon because it could 2HKO Starmie with proper prediction. I like using Substitute to guarantee free hits on switches, and controlling what I hit them with (with Golem I use Explosion and pray they don't switch to Gengar).
  4. moymoy

    moymoy

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    Sorry to double post, but I also wanted to ask about something else. Without Zapdos in the metagame, how does Lapras (Blizzard, Tbolt, CRay, BSlam) move up the ranks as a viable choice over Starmie (or maybe both?). Less consistent paralysis, and slower, but a lot beefier, and has physical attacks and parafusion.

    Edit: I wish I could get some more ratings. I was also thinking of replacing Gengar with Alakazam (Psychic, Twave, Recover, Stoss) and then give Eggy Sleep Powder>Stun Spore. Overall this will make my team a little more "accurate", I guess to say, but I lose a little utility from having Gengar (though having Rhydon may compensate). Thoughts?
  5. BunnyMaster

    BunnyMaster

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    Rhydon would work better. I also dont like snorlax.
  6. ultimifier

    ultimifier

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    i know this isnt on your possible list of last pokemon, but why not Slowbro with amnesia

    You say your playing friends who are kind of inexperienced, so they wont know about the high crit rate and how to break through him. Also, since they wont know executor is a good pokemon and cant use zapdos slowbro becomes even better in the little tournament. Amnesia, surf, physic, rest seems like it would work well on your team as you already have enough Twave users.
  7. pastel

    pastel

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    like beforfe, rhydon, in that generation, rhydon was an unbetable beast, go with him...
  8. Smurf.

    Smurf.
    is a Past SPL Winner

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    Personally, i'd go with golem, mainly because of it's defense. A normal resist is so essential to prevent Explosion or a Hyper Beam doing alot. He also has Explosion, which is his ace up the sleeve.
  9. Aether Nexus

    Aether Nexus

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    Yeah, agreed. Why the hell didn't I see that opening. Slowbro would rip through your friends/opponents teams as they wouldn't know how to deal with it. Plus, like Ultimifier said, new RBY players generally wouldn't use Exeggutor and since there is no Zapdos (which is a Legendary, not Uber; Mewtwo and Mew are the only Ubers in RBY) than Slowbro is free to set up and sweep.

    The set that Ultimifier states above for it is fine, but the original "Tobybro" Slowbro set is: Amnesia, Surf, Thunder Wave, Rest. That set only gets resisted by: Lapras, Starmie, Gyarados, Dragonite, Exeggutor, Venusaur, Victreebel and opposing Slowbro. Things that wall it would be: Chansey, Alakazam, Amnesia Snorlax, and again opposing Slowbro. But with a few Amnesia's, this thing will tear through those Special walls. Just be careful of Seismic Toss Alakazam (or Thunder Punch Alakazam) and Thunerbolt Chansey.

    If you have another status inflicter on your team, than remove T-wave for Psychic, and the set Ultimifier said is pretty much what you're going to get. The only thing that would resist this set is only Starmie, which is the only thing that comes to mind when against Slowbro, other than Amnesia users or high Special Pokemon.

    As for Lapras over Starmie on your team, I'd say it'd be a decent switch. She can be your PAR absorber as well. If there is no Zapdos Lapras can cause a lot of destruction. If you are going to make the swap, her moveset would be: Confuse Ray, Body Slam, Blizzard/Ice Beam, Rest. You can swap Thunderbolt over Rest for a full-on offensive Lapras but with her base 130 HP (463 max) Rest would be nice to gain back your health and remove any status. Ice Beam over Blizzard is only recommended if you need the extra PP. STAB Ice Beam still packs quite a punch and has double the max PP of Blizzard, and has 100% accuracy over 90% RBY Blizzard (technically Ice Beam is 99.6% accuracy), so if you're not going to go with a all-out offensive Lapras, than Ice Beam along with Rest is a great option.

    Body Slam > Thunderbolt on Lapras IMO because this is what she has over Starmie by being able to hit the things that wouldn't like to be hit by a Physical blow, such as Chansey or Alakazam and so on and Body Slam causes PAR status, so it's still a great option for her.

    Also, like I already said, Zapdos is the strongest opponent for Lapras, so without the Legendary Electric-type bird floating around than Lapras is free to cause havoc.

    ~ Aether Nexus
  10. moymoy

    moymoy

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    Thanks so much for the input! After reading this I started thinking about team dynamics, and possible threats my opponents might have.

    Firstly, I am worried about Chansey. Other than Tauros, and maybe Exeggutor and Gengar exploding on her, she has the possibility to do a lot of damage. Is this a major concern for keeping Rhydon on the team? (If their Chansey is paralyzed, I can likely move in Rhydon on the switch when she's softboiling and go for the kill)

    Secondly, speed becomes an issue with the team. With Gengar, Exeggutor, Tauros, Chansey, Slowbro, and Lapras, I only have two decently fast pokemon, then again, paralysis is a major theme of mine. It seem like my team is almost turning into a stalling team, with Chansey, Lapras with Rest, and Tobybro. Maybe I need to keep Starmie in the team to spread paralysis. Another option is making Tobybro standard (with Twave) and turning Starmie or Lapras into an all out offensive beast. I'm still trying to weigh the pros and cons between Starmie and Lapras; what are people's personal experiences with them? I really like using Confuse Ray, as a lot of my friends aren't the types to switch in and out because of CRay, so I'm trying to include it on Gengar, and makes me incline towards Lapras.

    Finally, as a note for evaluating all of this, based on talking to friends I expect to see pokemon like Jolteon, Sandslash, Arcanine, Snorlax, Dragonite, and possibly starters. The presence of Jolteon makes me kind of worried, as my only decent counters are Tauros or Chansey (and if Jolteon packs Focus Energy, its bad news).

    Again, any extra input would be awesome
  11. Borat

    Borat

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    Hydro Pump Starmie.

    Why does no one use it? :(
  12. ultimifier

    ultimifier

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    Focus Energy doesnt really work in RBY. It makes your CH chance actually decrease by a factor of 4.

    So lets hope your friends use focus energy ;)
  13. moymoy

    moymoy

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    May 7, 2009
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    From what I remember, it works on Stadium, which we will be playing on for at LEAST half the time (this is a cartridge tournament, linkbattle for a bit)
  14. ultimifier

    ultimifier

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    stadium 3v3 or stadium 6v6?
  15. GOTO2435

    GOTO2435

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    why donĀ“t you do full link or full stadium since the rules are pretty dfferent and HB, focus energy, etc. work differently
  16. moymoy

    moymoy

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    Most of my friends don't know they work that differently. I imagine its going to be Stadium 6v6, if it was 3v3 I think I would just pick a bunch of sweepers and go with it (Exeggutor, Tauros, Snorlax everytime). Odds are, its going to be majority Stadium. The only reason I assume a bit of linkbattle is that if there are a lot of people in the tournie (lets say more than 6 of us, which I'm pretty sure there will be), then one Stadium game will be too slow, so people will get impatient and want to play linkbattle.

    Hopefully that made sense. Does anyone have a general guide or tips for playing Stadium (3v3 or 6v6). I read the Beginner's Guide on RBY on this forum, I was just wondering if theres one for Stadium
  17. ShadowMaster8

    ShadowMaster8

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    Rhydon > Snorlax

    The main reason being it resists more things than Snorlax. It resists Normal, Fire, Flying, Bug, and a few others. Yes it has a few glaring weaknesses, but I think the resistances outweigh the weaknesses especially since there aren't many good Grass- or Water-Types in RBY IMO.
  18. ultimifier

    ultimifier

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    WHAT!?!?

    anyways, I highly suggest you use the slowbro set I listed earlier. With all the para support you are getting he will be a great late game sweeper. As long as you save him for when starmie and jolteon are dead its a pretty easy win.
  19. Aether Nexus

    Aether Nexus

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    Okay first off, there are so many things wrong with your paragraph. Let me take a whack at it before someone else does far more damage to you by what you just said.

    Your first part is right, Rhydon over Snorlax, but Rhydon is not generally better than Snorlax because they have two different functions in the RBY OU metagame. Snorlax isn't as powerful as it is in generations 2 - 4, it has no Curse and it has no Base 110 Special Defense. It only has a base 65 Special in RBY. Without Amnesia he can't take too many blows to the face, even with his ginormous HP stat. He's open to Physical blows by having no Curse and with his low Base 65 Defense. His slow Speed against other speedy Pokemon cause Critical Hits from the speed outcome in RBY.

    Second, Flying-, Bug, and Fire-type in RBY battling is scarcely seen. The only Fire-type Pokemon you may see are only Charizard, Arcanine and on rare occasions Moltres, other than those 3 Fire-type Pokemon you never see any other Fire-type mons in the OU RBY metagame. So even if Rhydon resists those, it doesn't matter because and again, you never see them. Also, Snorlax doesn't need to resist those, with his 65 base Special and his 160 Base HP those moves wont do much to him anyway.

    Fire-type is Special in RBY (and also generations 2 & 3) and Snorlax can set up on them by using Amnesia while they do little damage to the fat sleeping Pokemon. Bug-type moves are non-existent in RBY, you never see them apart from a Beedrill using Twineedle in RBY UU. Flying-type moves are non-existent as well and the only Pokemon you'd actually see using it is Zapdos & Dodrio with STAB Drill Peck in OU and possibly Fearow using STAB Drill Peck in UU.
    There are just so many things on what you said in this sentence that are just beyond being a little wrong. I'd rather not flame you but saying things like that are going to get you one big flame from many users. It's like going to a casino and sitting down at a Black Jack table with 4 other people and losing your money on purpose. Like have 20 and saying "Hit me!".

    So let's see, Rhydon only has a few glaring weaknesses? Rhydon is weak x2 weak to: Fighting-, Ground-, and Ice-type moves (it's also x2 weak to Steel-type moves but Steel-type didn't come around until GSC, so it's non-existent in RBY). Rhydon is x4 weak to: Grass-, and Water-type moves. Now let's see, all his x2 weaknesses are bad and his x4 weaknesses are even worse. Fighting-types aren't very common in the OU metagame but Hitmonlee with STAB Hi Jump Kick and Machamp with STAB Submission are seen sometimes in OU. Ground-type moves aka Earthquake, is seen pretty much all the time in any tier, any generation. Golem, Dugtrio and opposing Rhydon with STAB EQ hurt him and other Pokemon such as: Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Sandslash, Tauros, Kangaskhan, and Snorlax are also seen with using the move.

    Ice-type moves are seen out the ying yang in RBY, same as EQ. Big Special threats such as Starmie, Lapras, Jynx, and so on learn Ice-type moves. Blizzard is the most common Ice-type move seen in RBY because of it's 90% accuracy in RBY. With or without STAB and Rhydon with its low 45 Base Special, they're going to cut through him like scissors to paper. If Ice-type moves weren't seen that much in RBY OU, than Dragonite would be seen a hell of a lot more. Why do you think it's Border Line?

    Now, as for the x4 weaknesses, well, those get even worse. Grass-type moves are only seen by two Pokemon used in RBY OU: Venusaur and Victreebel. With STAB Razor Leaf and the additional CH rate on them, it's surely going to be a OHKO from both of them all the time. As for the other x4 weakness, Water-type, is very common. Starmie uses STAB Surf/Hydo Pump, Lapras uses STAB Surf (on rare occasions - STAB Blizzard is far better on her as so it states in her analysis) and so many other Pokemon have Water-type attacks. Be it with or without STAB, with it's low Base 45 Special it's not going to live through the hit.

    Rhydon and Golem (and Dugtrio) are used for one thing and one thing only in RBY: to block Thunder Wave. They have many more uses, clearly, but that's one of their biggest roles in RBY if they're on a team. They are also used to counter Zapdos because without those guys, Zapdos would be a much bigger threat. So lastly, even though you're somewhat new to Smogon, make sure you know what you're typing before you click on the Submit Reply button.
    Then make sure you make the rules clear, either do it all Stadium battle or all Link Battle. I say this because if you had a Jolteon on your team with Focus Energy and Substitute it's going to kick ass in Stadium but not in link battle. Hyper Beam isn't as good in Stadium and that's why people replace it with Double-Edge/filler move. You need to make your tournament rules clear. If your friends are impatient than set the impatient one's to play against each other in all link battles (6 vs. 6/3 vs. 3 however you want to do it) and set the patient one's in all Stadium battles. Just split them into groups: Group A): Link Battle; Group B): Stadium Battle.

    In the end, if you have one winner from the Link Battle group and one winner from the Stadium group, you can do like a coin toss or something to see which place which person wants to battle in through the outcome of the toss win or whatever you do to decide on it.

    ~ Aether Nexus
  20. moymoy

    moymoy

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    Thanks Aether, you've cleared up a fair bit that I had misinterpreted. I have been reading up on GSC a bit (in case a tournament #2 :P) and maybe because of that I overemphasized the value of Snorlax. Also, while Rhydon might be a powerhouse, he does have a lot of weaknesses, and even with good para support there are still a lot of things that OHKO him, or damn close.

    So, going with your advice to pressure the tournament to be one or the other, it is highly likely that we will go exclusively 6v6 Stadium (with maybe some fun 3v3 afterwards, but not "official", but still good bragging rights) just because its more fun for other people to watch. With that, and the emphasized advice that Slowbro should be on my team as a surprise factor, I have reformulated the team.

    Gengar (new lead)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Psychic
    - Confuse Ray
    - Explosion

    I removed Hypnosis because sleep isn't very good on Stadium, and as I mentioned earlier, I am a big fan of Confuse Ray, especially on my friends who aren't too apt to switch (barring huge type weaknesses). Psychic is mostly there for other Gengar, which I would be expecting to see (most of my friends know its good). I figure, Seismic Toss is mostly for Exeggutor, which I don't expect to see, and my Gengar doesn't fair well against. As for Mega Drain, I already have a fair bit of rock counters, and I don't like leaving Gengar in against them anyways (plus Psychic to my knowledge will still be a 2HKO?)

    Exeggutor
    - Psychic
    - Double Edge
    - Stun Spore
    - Explosion.

    Again, no sleep powder (stadium). Double Edge for Alakazam and Chansey and such, I don't expect to go against Starmie anyway. The funny thing is, I don't expect my friends to be 100% carrying Blizzard (most will probably use Surf for STAB, Psychic because they know its the "best type", Recover, and then a tossup between Twave/Tbolt/Blizzard), but I think they will be convinced that I am carrying Mega Drain, and won't keep Starmie in for very long. With this prediction in mind, I'll probably take advantage of Stun Spore more.

    Tauros
    - Body Slam
    - Double Edge
    - Blizzard
    - Earthquake

    Switched to DE for Stadium because of Hyper Beam cooldown regardless of KO. I'm wondering maybe its worth it to keep Hyper Beam as a pseudo-Explosion/one-final-hit sort of deal

    Chansey
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt
    - Thunder Wave
    - Softboiled

    Good ol' status absorber. If Aether is true in saying that Rhydon is only good for absorbing paralysis, then Chansey will suffice to take that status. She is my instant switch-in if my opponent leads Alakazam (which I expect to see on EVERY team).

    Slowbro
    - Surf
    - Amnesia
    - Thunder Wave
    - Rest

    Standard Tobybro. I don't know if Psychic is really necessary on Slowbro, and I heard an old saying about RBY that "you can never have too much paralysis". I would assume this would be more true on Stadium

    Alakazam
    - Psychic
    - Thunder Wave
    - Recover
    - Seismic Toss/Substitute

    The major fix is that I replaced Starmie with Alakazam. They are both mainly used as para support on my team, the difference between the two is that Alakazam has less weaknesses (electric mainly, I'm worried about Jolteon) and is faster, and I feel I won't lose to much by sacrificing a boltbeamer.

    However, I do not know what to pick between Substiture or Seismic Toss. One is good for protecting my Zam from paralysis (which it actually does on Stadium), the other gives me a bit of squeeze room for stall wars against Starmie and Chansey.


    Overall I'm pretty happy with this team. Again, I'm looking for any advice on my team dynamic, or Stadium in general. Thanks =)
  21. Borat

    Borat

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    You should have at least one sleeper, especially when you have 3 potential candidates for the role.
  22. Aether Nexus

    Aether Nexus

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    Yeah, either make Gengar your sleeper or better yet Exeggutor the sleeper. I know the perfect moveset for it for you to use. Your team needs a few adjustments as well but for right now I'm off to catch some Z's, so I'll just edit my post later on when I wake up and take a whack at your upgraded team.

    ~ Aether Nexus
  23. Borat

    Borat

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    She is my instant switch-in if my opponent leads Alakazam

    I've never used Alakazam in any of my RBY teams for that exact reason.

    Come to think of it, I never use Alakazam in any of my GSC teams either.

    He's honestly an utter failure in every generation, which really makes you wonder why he's ever been OU. Outclassed by Starmie in every imaginable way. For that reason, -Alakazam, +Rhydon/Snorlax.
  24. moymoy

    moymoy

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    I guess I might as well post this before your edit, but if I'm playing Stadium exclusively, is a sleeper still that important? I was led to believe it wasn't... That being said, I think I would prefer it on Exeggutor over Gengar, because I hate the accuracy of Hypnosis and I like Confuse Ray.

    As for the Alakazam/Starmie debate, there are a couple of things motivating my decision (though I'm always welcome to change my mind against a more convincing one). Firstly, with my friends playing, I do expect the tournament to include a fair few BL and UU pokemon, which Alakazam can shine a bit more as a special sweeper against (compared to all the Psychic resistant Pokemon in OU). Secondly, I don't like the idea of two waters on my team, as I do fear a Focus Energy pumped Jolteon on Stadium (or Surfing Raichus). As for replacing with Snorlax/Rhydon, out of the two my previous fears would lead me to pick Rhydon (resistant to Electric and adds a few more resistances). However, as my personal arbitrary rule of thumb (though I don't know if its completely rational), I like to have three "fast" pokemon on my team at least; it lets me keep a bit more control over my game and lets luck go to my side first (more crits, and more likely to get crits first --> earlier KOs). Currently, I have Gengar, Tauros, and Alakazam, and I really think my team needs to keep a reliable fast paralyzer for Slowbro to shine. That being said, I do like Starmie, and joked with my friends beforehand that I wouldn't use Alakazam (only to hear them laugh and jeer at me) so I am open to opinions on this debate as well.
  25. GOTO2435

    GOTO2435

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    Going as far as saying he is a failure is A LOT i meanhe ahs a weaknesless typing in this gen + a very good STAB amazing speed and awsome sp.attack

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