-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Gen 1 6th spot: Rhydon vs. Snorlax
- Thread starter moymoy
- Start date
Comments are in bold. Also, remember, your team your choices.
Well, if you think he's an utter failure, than don't use him. When you play against someone in RBY who dominates you with a Alakazam, you'll clearly see why it does not fail in RBY.
Also, Starmie does not "outclass" it. Every Pokemon in RBY does something different, you can't simply outclass one Pokemon with another, especially in RBY. Alakazam doesn't fear Chansey if she switches in.
Right, then just go with Alakazam. Jolteon will be a far bigger threat in Stadium and without something like Golem/Rhydon to deal with it, it's going to be a tough one to take down if it Subs up and uses Focus Energy, or vice versa. Alakazam is your better option in this case, and Starmie would like to fit into your team but Alakazam fits in better.
Well, that's all I can think of for now. I'm pretty sure I made a few typo's but oh well. It's almost 4 a.m. here, and it's my Birthday today (turned 20), so I need my rest. So anyways, good luck with the changes and thinking them through and when the hell is your tournament? Seems like you're getting all these options flung at you and making teams on cartridge games aren't that simple, even with a sharker.
~ Aether Nexus
Please explain what Alakazam does in RBY. I honestly have no clue. He PP stalls Chansey? Then can we assume Alakazam's speed is a non-factor then? Or do you mean he comes in when Chansey is dead?
He seems to be a special wall more than anything, but with a tick over 300 HP, that's not much walling. Any mistimed FP will result in death. And quite frankly, for whatever reason, he tends to absorb either para or sleep most of the time.
He seems to be a special wall more than anything, but with a tick over 300 HP, that's not much walling. Any mistimed FP will result in death. And quite frankly, for whatever reason, he tends to absorb either para or sleep most of the time.
Alakazam in RBY has no real weakness (pin missile lol), has Amazing speed, thus amazing CH rate, Sky high special meaning that he is like a "mini chansey" but with more power and he also has recover just in case you need to restore HP. Basically he has the best typing in the game and really high stats plus a recovery move
Tobybro.
No weaknesses and also no advantages really. You'll either hit Chansey with sky high Spc/HP, or other psychics.
His amazing speed is usually nullified by Chansey. Unless he plans to run away on sight versus chansey, he'll get paralyzed in some way. Not to mention, the other assortment of switches (Starmie/Egg) also often pack paralysis.
He's a "mini" (and I use that term loosely) Chansey in the same way that... well he's not. 313 HP doesn't cut it anywhere.
Yeah, I usually always have both Chansey and Alakazam in my team. The only thing can that can wall Alakazam is something that resists it's STAB Psychic, like Starmie or Exeggutor (or Chansey to wall them and heal them off). Alakazam has Seismic Toss, which helps him out greatly when against things like Exeggutor and so on.
Well you know, we're going completely off-topic - whatever you like to use, and whatever you think does not work, than so be it; it's pointless to argue or discuss such a matter. And not saying this at you, Goto.
Even though I'm using a cartridge I also own Pokemon Stadium (with Dodrio mode) and I've been leveling up almost all of my options (I even have a lvl 100 Jynx with max stat exp... kind of a shame).
Also, I understand the dilemma about using an Exeggutor with Double Edge against Chansey. I made a post a few months ago on this forum about DE on Exeggutor, and the consensus that I read was that (1) Mega Drain seems relatively pointless, as you will lose to Starmie beat Golem/Rhydon anyways and (2) DE is very effective on disposing Alakazam, who has very little HP and thus low recoil damage.
A double powder Exeggutor sounds very tempting (right now I have Psychic/DE/Stun Spore/Sleep Powder... once I decide on his moveset I'll replace a move with Explosion), especially since sleep is accurate. I'm just debating it merit in Stadium, though I guess with its high accuracy it shouldn't backfire too often...
I am enjoying the debate on Alakazam/Starmie, and for me personally I don't find it offtopic at all (I too am still debating between the two greatly). Defensively, Alakazam is overshadowed by Chansey, but having a backup never hurts. Basically this slot is serving a few purposes
1) Scouting the other team and spreading paralysis (and hopefully not getting paralyzed in the process)
2) Cleaning up the garbage late game should Tauros get paralyzed/KOed and Slowbro fails.
Both seem to do a pretty good job at 1 (they can both be alternate leads, they have good typing, fast, recovery). Alakazam has a slightly better edge because he can forces switches better with Psychic SpDown chances and he's faster. As for late game cleanup: If I expected all of my opponents to be completely educated (some are searching online, sort of), I would pick Starmie in a heartbeat, just because of the abundance of Psychic-resistant types. However, in this format, and with Stadium, I expect to see a lot of BL and UU alternatives (Sandslash, Arcanine, 3 Starters, etc.) which is why I switched back to Alakazam. Psychic is reliable, has STAB (unlike Blizz and Tbolt), and has fewer direct counters to stop him. I will probably use Substitute on Zam, so he might also have more protection from status to actually reach goal 2. Also, Chansey has an almost identical moveset to Starmie, Gengar has Tbolt, Slowbro can cover rock/ground; it just feels like Starmie is a little repetitive on the team. Though I guess you could similarly argue that Exeggutor/Alakazam share these features.
Overall, I encourage the debate to continue, as I'm really struggling to pick between the two. While I am afraid of Jolteon (though I have Chansey and Gengar who might fare well), the OU pokemon are still a very real threat, and there might be one or two opponents who are knowledgable and end up bring Eggy and Tauros and such to the team (luckily there are very few good Stadium strategy sources out there). Keep talking guys!
Also, the tournie was originally meant to be held in the summer, but it got postponed for a while and the buzz is starting up again
Also, I understand the dilemma about using an Exeggutor with Double Edge against Chansey. I made a post a few months ago on this forum about DE on Exeggutor, and the consensus that I read was that (1) Mega Drain seems relatively pointless, as you will lose to Starmie beat Golem/Rhydon anyways and (2) DE is very effective on disposing Alakazam, who has very little HP and thus low recoil damage.
A double powder Exeggutor sounds very tempting (right now I have Psychic/DE/Stun Spore/Sleep Powder... once I decide on his moveset I'll replace a move with Explosion), especially since sleep is accurate. I'm just debating it merit in Stadium, though I guess with its high accuracy it shouldn't backfire too often...
I am enjoying the debate on Alakazam/Starmie, and for me personally I don't find it offtopic at all (I too am still debating between the two greatly). Defensively, Alakazam is overshadowed by Chansey, but having a backup never hurts. Basically this slot is serving a few purposes
1) Scouting the other team and spreading paralysis (and hopefully not getting paralyzed in the process)
2) Cleaning up the garbage late game should Tauros get paralyzed/KOed and Slowbro fails.
Both seem to do a pretty good job at 1 (they can both be alternate leads, they have good typing, fast, recovery). Alakazam has a slightly better edge because he can forces switches better with Psychic SpDown chances and he's faster. As for late game cleanup: If I expected all of my opponents to be completely educated (some are searching online, sort of), I would pick Starmie in a heartbeat, just because of the abundance of Psychic-resistant types. However, in this format, and with Stadium, I expect to see a lot of BL and UU alternatives (Sandslash, Arcanine, 3 Starters, etc.) which is why I switched back to Alakazam. Psychic is reliable, has STAB (unlike Blizz and Tbolt), and has fewer direct counters to stop him. I will probably use Substitute on Zam, so he might also have more protection from status to actually reach goal 2. Also, Chansey has an almost identical moveset to Starmie, Gengar has Tbolt, Slowbro can cover rock/ground; it just feels like Starmie is a little repetitive on the team. Though I guess you could similarly argue that Exeggutor/Alakazam share these features.
Overall, I encourage the debate to continue, as I'm really struggling to pick between the two. While I am afraid of Jolteon (though I have Chansey and Gengar who might fare well), the OU pokemon are still a very real threat, and there might be one or two opponents who are knowledgable and end up bring Eggy and Tauros and such to the team (luckily there are very few good Stadium strategy sources out there). Keep talking guys!
Also, the tournie was originally meant to be held in the summer, but it got postponed for a while and the buzz is starting up again
Well, this is how I look at it and for you to choose wisely rather in a haste: if you go with Alakazam you can Sub up and take down most of your opponents due to their lack of knowledge towards the RBY metagame. As for Starmie, if you want a late-game sweeper, which on your team it is best, and you don't fear Jolteon or can handle it, than go with a late-game Starmie. The moveset for such is pretty basic: Surf, Thunderbolt, Blizzard, Recover. As you can see that would be tough to wall once Chansey is removed (or Alakazam) and pretty much anything weakened at around 70% and below should be KO'd.
All though, this will ruin your late-game Tobybro sweep surprise. You can always just bring it in on something and your opponents don't realize you're about to send them into Oblivion by raising your Special with Amnesia. But like I said, if you fear Jolteon, than either keep in Alakazam or if you think you can handle it, than switch in Chansey. If you don't feel like tossing in Chansey, you can always send in Exeggutor to eat the Not Very Effective STAB Thunderbolt and Explode on it to remove your fear of it. Also, if you try to face Starmie against Jolteon late-game, you have a slim chance of winning. Jolteon with STAB + Super Effective Thunderbolt does 261 non-crit and with a crit it's a obvious KO. As for Starmie with STAB Surf, it does 115 non-crit and 222 with a crit.
Jolteon, with it's base 130 Speed reaches a 25% chance of netting a Critical Hit, and if it manages to use Focus Energy, then it will reach 31%. Starmie on the other hand with its base 115 Speed has a 22% chance of netting a CH (also remember, being Paralyzed or having your Speed lowered any amount or raised does not change the outcome of the percentage; it all relies on the base Speed of the Pokemon: CH%=Base Speed*100/512).
If your friends or whoever realizes how beastly Jolteon is once it gets a Sub up and uses Focus Energy, than it's ready to go. It can also carry Sand Attack, so be cautious (Sand Attack doesn't break evasion clause, if you guys are playing with that clause, that is). If your friends do read up on how to use the right sets for such Pokemon, than I suppose be prepared for anything. If it was me, and if I used Jolteon on my Stadium team, than the set would be: Substitute, Focus Energy, Body Slam, Thunderbolt.
~ Aether Nexus
Why wouldn't you use Double Kick on the Jolteon (to help deal with Chansey mainly, and maybe Tauros and Snorlax, though Tbolt might do more there, or maybe Rhydon/Golem get one decent critical hit in before the sub breaks)? I imagine my friends would use Pin Missile though, as its the "counter" to psychics. Also, i thought focus energy raised it more than 6% (I thought it was like 4 times for often).
On that note, is Jolteon considered a must-have for Stadium?
On another note, is there any good place where I can practice online? R2 Stadium just doesnt seem like enough, although the computers might better emulate the strategies of my friends
On that note, is Jolteon considered a must-have for Stadium?
On another note, is there any good place where I can practice online? R2 Stadium just doesnt seem like enough, although the computers might better emulate the strategies of my friends
I remember doing some damage calculations with another persons team when it came to Body Slam vs. Double Kick. Double Kick, if I remember correctly, is really only somewhat useful against Chansey due to it's low base Defense and being Super Effective, but it wont do that much damage because Jolteon has a low base Attack.
When I did the damage calculations for another user for their team, the results weren't that great. The 3 Pokemon that usually switch into Jolteon to absorb the blow are: Chansey, Golem, and Rhydon (and on rare occasions Dugtrio, Alakazam and Zapdos). Even if Double Kick is SE against Golem and Rhydon, it still didn't do as much as would expect. Not like enormous damage, just a slight scratch to them. I'd rather go with Body Slam because Chansey will get hurt not as much as using Double Kick but it's better against Golem and Rhydon switch-in's because you can net the 30% Paralysis when they switch in.
As for Pin Missile on Jolteon, that's just pointless, IMO. The only thing you'd be hitting with Pin Missile for somewhat reasonable damage would be the Psychi-type Pokemon, clearly. As Jolteons RBY analysis says, Pin Missile is really all about luck. Through the shoddy 80% accuracy of the move and only being able to hit your target 2-3 times max each time unless you get even luckier and hit 4-5 times, it's just something that it should avoid using. If you do get lucky at hit 5 times, Pin Missiles power only because 70, which is terrible as it's a Physical move and Jolteon has a very low 65 base Attack (298 max).
Having such a move on Jolteon means you want to deal with the likes of pesky Psychi-type Pokemon, like Alakazam, Jynx, and Exeggutor. Starmie and Slowbro don't need to be hit by Pin Missle because STAB + Super Effective Thunderbolt does a lot more damage, clearly. Pin Missile is a 3HKO on Alakazam (without Reflect and without CH'ing). If Jolteon does get lucky and hits 5 times with Pin Missile it becomes power 70, which deals (max): 146 non-crit, 282 crit, and 75 with Reflect up. Jynx takes: 163 non-critical, 315 critical, 83 with Reflect up. Exeggutor is really the only Pokemon I'd carry Pin Missile for because it's x4 weak to Bug-type attacks. Here are the damage calcs: 208 non-critical, 398 critical (OHKO), and 108 with Reflect up. But again, it's really all about luck, and I highly doubt anyone can score 5 hits in a row or too many times by using it.
Having Jolteon in Stadium is not really a must-have for Stadium, it is basically just a whole lot better in Stadium with it's movepool. Standard Jolteon isn't all that great in competitive play, hence why it's BL. It's really thanks to Golem and Rhydon who make Jolteon BL, because even if Jolteon used Substitute for some reason in a regular battle, sure as hell Golem or Rhydon is going to be switched into it and they surely use STAB EQ to take away the Sub. In return, Jolteon can't do anything to them because Electric-type moves wont work on them, Double Kick does little damage to them, Pin Missile wouldn't do all that much and Body Slam is its only option for the incoming Golem/Rhydon/switch-in.
Jolteon is one of those Pokemon you wish it could have 6 moves rather 4 in Stadium because you can't resist not putting Sub + Focus Energy on Jolteon in Stadium. Behind a Sub and with it's monstrous Special, decent offensive movepool, and pumping its Critical Hit ratio, than you can see why it's beastly. Whatever switches in on it is going to take quite the hit if you predict wrong. To your last question, best place to test out a team is on NetBattle Supremacy: http://pmnb.net/index.php?categoryid=9 I believe it works on Windows computers only. As for other previous battling simulators (in this case, generation 1 battle simulators) there is PBS, but the old PBS died and now there's the new PBS: http://porygon.math.miami.edu:7137/ And if you want something different, there is always trying out Schwa's battle simulator: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50995
~ Aether Nexus
Personally I would go with Rhydon. You already have Gengar and Exeggutor with suicide moves and with a bit of prediction your opponent could easily make there sacrifice useless. Also, as you have already mentioned Rhydon packs a much harder punch and can also double as a physical tank (you already have Chansey as a special tank so don't need another one in the form of Snorlax).
It is easier to spread paralysis with an alakazam than it is with a chansey.
The reason is alakazam will force switches with his numerous special falls. Timing twave on the switches is key. Hipmonlee also used kinesis for that same purpose.
But yeah, I'm not a big user of alakazam myself, I rather have an extra physical attacker take its spot.
The reason is alakazam will force switches with his numerous special falls. Timing twave on the switches is key. Hipmonlee also used kinesis for that same purpose.
But yeah, I'm not a big user of alakazam myself, I rather have an extra physical attacker take its spot.
True but wouldn,t it be easier to kill off chansey (in RBY special sweepers are special walls) the only true special wall in the whole game with say tauros and then plow opponents with alakazam, chansey, exeggcutor, toybro, etc.
