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Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by Stathakis, Apr 18, 2009.

  1. Stathakis

    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion

    Dec 28, 2007
    team, but if you really want you can skip it. the team at a glance for your viewing pleasure:
    Οι Έλληνες!

    so I haven't made a rmt in a long long time. Thing is, most of my good teams I am reluctant to reveal because in mirror matches they suck (i.e. the whole match pretty much comes down to one speed tie). those of you who have used some of my teams vs. me, youknow what I'm talking about. But enough about why I haven't made a rmt in a while, let's talk about why I am making one now. Well, here's the deal. Lately, a lot of people on the forums have associated heavy offense with lots of prediction. I am here to tell you guys that this is not the case. I have here a team that wins games handily without making ballsy switches. Some of you may remember my latest rmt, the suicide concept. think of the suicide concept to an extreme, and that's what you'll find here. the sacrifice team has made its comeback, and now it's better than ever. for those of you who care about numbers, on the suspect ladder under the alt Zorba (hence the title of the thread.) (where this team is meant to be played, latias is too much of a bitch), this team, in two days, reached a CRE of 1685 or so with a rating of 1950 (after that, the test ended. I started laddering too late =/). I might've lost 5 battles, all of which were lost because very good players got a crapload of hax vs. me. Ladder rank aside, this team was basically my attempt at variety after going through a bit of a slump. but why post this team if it is so good? well, I'm done using it, and I'm here to lead by example, so that the rest of you guys can learn something and improve your own teams. I'm doing this for you, the population of smogon, so if you fully read and appreciated and learned from this rmt, say so in your post, so that I know how many of you actually gained something here (I also want to see who took the time to actually read the intro).

    First, to understand this team, you must understand how I play. Basically, to play offense, all you have to do is get in a sweeper, set up, do as much damage as possible, sacrifice said sweeper, get in the next one, etc etc. By using stuff that is walled by the same things, you sacrifice one guy to weaken the counter (a bulky water or blissey in the case of this team) and then the rest of the team has a party. there is a lot of longterm thinking involved, because you have to sacrifice the right stuff and find openings to sweep and stuff. with this team, you don't have to predict, but you have to be thinking about the lategame from turn one, keeping the right stuff alive, sacrificing the right stuff, etc. otherwise, you'll find yourself unable to break through the opponent. It is also imperative, that, to not get swept, you have to not let anything be able to set up anywhere. if you want to effectively beat stall, scarfers are a huge no-no, therefore you can't revenge kill. since you can't revenge kill, the only way to not get swept is to not let anything set up on you. it follows that choice items in general are a no-no, due to the amount of free turns you give. It is also not good to switch, as by switching, you take two attacks, or worse, give your opponent a fee turn to set up. by doing your own thing and not switching out and giving your opponent free turns, you are never on the defensive, the pressure is always on the opponent, and you don't have to predict. It also follows that since we don't want to predict, explosion is a no-no as well, because it causes blind switches, which are even more guess-like than predictions. By doing all this, you play without having to predict. as long as your long-term thinking is solid and your team is good, you can win, no guessing necessary. this is the better way to play offense, the more reliable way.

    so, knowing all this, it follows that a good offense team will be predominantly physical or predominantly special oriented, so that one has things that are walled by the same stuff. it is, due to the abundance of bulky, hard-hitting setup sweepers on the physical side, much easier to create an all-physical team. however, there is a downside. your generic team has more than one physically bulky pokemon, making it hard to break through some teams. so, I have crafted here an all-special team. by doing this, I minimize the amount of bulky pokemon I have to eliminate. it is rare that defensive tyranitar, snorlax, and blissey will all be on the same team. therefore I only have to sacrifice one pokemon sometimes, and I can win handily. However, I have here broken a few principles here. I have a choice item on the team and two explosions. if you blindly follow the principles of no-prediction offense, this team looks bad. however, if you understand WHY the principles are there, what purpose they serve, you realize that this is ok. I'll start with the concept of explosions. they help me take down blissey. but what about the blind switches? well, I have specjolt and logar on the team, and they can take on near anything without one-on-one without having to set up. therefore it is ok to explode, because I am coming out on top afterwards anyways. as for specjolt, you must understand that I rarely bring it out before the lategame. I think I may have used a move other than thunderbolt once or twice. rather than lojolt, I need specjolt to be able to take things on one-on-one. specjolt often comes in the lategame and just ohkos everything, without needing an opening to set up. that is why it's potent. and since I save it for the lategame, it's rare that anything sets up on it anyways. So, here we go with the team! (ps zorba really isn't that common a greek name but they made a movie so I decided to make my alt that so eh)

    a.k.a. Azelf
    Azelf @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Levitate
    Evs: 252 Satk, 4 Atk, 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+ Spd, -Sdef)
    ~ Stealth Rock
    ~ Explosion
    ~ Fire Blast
    ~ Psychic
    Comments / Thoughts: So I start the match with suicide azelf. Here's the reasoning. I get up sr early, and I sacrifice azelf, giving me a free switchin to whatever kills it, generally giving me a free turn to set up and sweep or sacrifice or whatever. Generally I don't set up sr right away, but attack to 2hko whatever is in, encouraging the opponent to switch as I set sr. by doing this, I get damage on a first pokemon, scout a little, set up my sr, and maybe even continue denting stuff. Oftentimes, I decide to just not explode and continue to fire off strong psychics, which allows me to weaken enemy rotoms, as they are an annoying threat to this team, beating manaphy and infernape as well as forcing jolteon out. So azelf generally puts me ahead from the start. Sometimes, I can just continally fire off psychics, lulling poorer players into a sense of security and managing to blow up blissey early in the game. It's also fun to hit jirachies hard and then come in laer. Basically, I don't explode immediately with this guy because that's somewhat expected. And if I happen to explode on a ghost, no sweat. If azelf gets sr and scouts a little, he's done his job. Besides, worst comes to worst, if I don't get a kill with explosion, I still get the free turn from bringing in whoever I want. Azelf has failed me maybe once or twice to get a good start in the match, despite how prepared people are for him.

    a.k.a. Gengar
    Gengar @ Life Orb
    Ability: Levitate
    Evs: 252 Satk, 4 Atk, 252 Spd
    Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def)
    ~ Shadow Ball
    ~ Focus Blast
    ~ Explosion
    ~ Hypnosis
    Comments / Thoughts: Logar generally comes in early game, right after azelf explodes. He can take on most things one-on-one with hypnosis, and sleeping scizors on the switch is pretty cool. Generally if the opponent has a blissey, they're bringing it in immediately. If they don't bring it in due to being scared of explosion, they're getting hit by incredibly strong shadow balls and getting frustrated enough to just bring her in anyways. I can generally scout the protect, and if I don't get blissey dead, it's generally at low enough health for the rest of the team to take on. Gengar can generally just throw attacks without switching and ko or 2hko everything, especially with sr and hypnosis forcing switches. He comes in early game and just does damage while scouting the team to helll. You don't know how many switches this guy forces. What's nice is, with scizor getting gengar, people have stopped worrying about it and letting it walk all over their teams. Well, gengar is back and better. Even if scizor bullet punches me dead, I've got like 3 guys who love coming in after scizor bullet punches. So yea, this guy works in conjunction with azelf for early game havoc generally. If it lives to see the lategame, it can sweep once bulkier pokemon are weakened and scizor is taken out / slept. But generally I sac this guy early so that doesnt happen tooooo often.

    a.k.a. Infernape
    Infernape @ Life Orb
    Ability: Blaze
    Evs: 252 Satk, 252 Spd, 4 Hp
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    ~ Nasty Plot
    ~ Fire Blast
    ~ Focus Blast
    ~ Vacuum Wave
    Comments / Thoughts: Nasty plot infernape. This guy is a threat that is not too often seen anymore. He is, however, incredibly potent. This guy generally comes in after gengar, due to scizor bullet punching me dead. As he plots the switche, he ohkos vaporeon, swampert, blissey, zapdos, and all the rest of the usual suspects (blissey not as much but sometimes they think they can survive allspecial ape once the cat's out of the bag. that is assuming they survived my early 'lures'). Blaze fire blast is nothing to scoff at either, ohkoing even resists like swampert and the bulkiest of salamences. Vacuum wave is mainly to revenge kill stuff if somehow I let something set up, as well as priority for random scarfers and priority users that may try to hurt ape after it's taken some damage. I didnt' use vacuum wave too much, so I considered hp electric to more reliably stroke manaphy as well as to kill annoying gyaradoses and weaken tentacruels, but was too lazy to actually make the team change lol. The thing is, tentacruel lacks recovery, and generally it is the only thing standing between empoleon and gg, so hitting it reasonably hard with fire blast is enough for me. A lot of the time, preople expect me to switch out to save ape and take the chance to set up toxic spikes or rapid spin, allowing me to get two +2 hits on an annoying pokemon, leaving it with very little health (and obviously not enough hp to deal with empoleon). This guy exemplefies the team concept of sacrifices, generally busting open huge holes for me to exploit. By the time this guy is done rampaging, it's generally game over no matter what. Stroking manaphies is also fun as they can be a bit of a thorn in empoleon's side, and nobody likes speed ties. Oh, this guy also completely decimates stall pretty much one his own, which is another plus, though stall really has no place vs. this team and its nature anyways.

    a.k.a. Manaphy
    Manaphy @ Life Orb
    Ability: Hydration
    Evs: 252 Satk, 252 Spd, 4 Hp
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    ~ Tail Glow
    ~ Surf
    ~ Energy Ball
    ~ Ice Beam
    Comments / Thoughts: The dreaded suspect manaphy. Ironically, this guy has generally been the weak link of the team. When I win, he is rarely a substantial contributor, if I even reveal him at all. When I lose, he is usually just taking up space. Rarely did manaphy help me at all, other than maybe to coax out other manaphies to speed tie with me. The reason I built this team was to use manaphy in the suspect test, and I found him quite underwhelming. So basically I theory'd him onto the team and was reluctant to remove him. He is quick and can ohko frail stuff without setup, and once he is set up even the strongest of defenders can't take him on. Even blissey. If blissey, for whatever reason, is still alive to take on manaphy, I don't switch out. One time, I won a game because manaphy set up as blissey came in, set up again while getting thunderwaved, then sacrificed himself to hit blissey with powerful 70%+ surfs, forcing her to stoss because she dies before lo kills me. Basically manaphy is a bit of a glue for the team, ohkoing most everything while at the same time being bulky (and not early game death fodder) so that I can go to him mid-late game. Anyways, aside from serving as prime lategame stuff to sacrifice so that I can get an opening for ape or jolt to sweep, manaphy didn't do too much. Another interesting thing, I don't think I ever won a manaphy speed tie =[[.

    a.k.a. Empoleon
    Empoleon @ Petaya Berry
    Ability: Torrent
    Evs: 252 Satk, 232 Spd, 12 Hp, 12 Def
    Modest Nature (+Satk, -Atk)
    ~ Agility
    ~ Substitute
    ~ Hydro Pump
    ~ Ice Beam
    Comments / Thoughts: Sub empoleon is quite possibly the most fearsome sweeper in OU. No, in fact, it IS the most fearsome sweeper in OU. I think the only reason that he isn't seen more is because of the amount of support required to make him sweep, and the fact that you pretty much only get one chance to sweep. Well, that isn't an issue for this team, because every single member of this team is a win condition on its own, so even if emp doesnt sweep, its ok. Basically I get him in midgame on a scizor bullet punch, generally to kill off ape, and just sweep away the rest of the enemy team. He is quick enough after an agility to sweep, though getting beat by scarfgon is kind of annoying. Basically, empoleon is what makes allspecial offense worthwhile over allphysical. His formidability as a way to end games in a snap is just insane. And with this team being as wearing as it is on blissey and waters, it's rare that he can't do his thing. I have emp here using hydro pump and ice beam, mainly to kill off bulky things. if empoleon were my only way to sweep, I'd be using surf, but since the goal is to do as much damage before dying, hydro pump gets the nod in order to ohko bulky pokemon that might get in my other guys' way. Ice beam, in the meantime, is here because I can deal with waters with ease but not with fliers as easily. Yea, not much to say here, this is kinda the guy the team was built around, and he does a good job of what he does.

    a.k.a. Jolteon
    Jolteon @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Volt Absorb
    Evs: 252 Satk, 252 Spd, 4 Hp
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    ~ Thunderbolt
    ~ Shadow Ball
    ~ Baton Pass
    ~ Rain Dance
    Comments / Thoughts: Specjolt. This guy can ohko pretty much any semi-frail mon in platinum. Zero set up. Just get in and kill stuff. This guy is mainly my lategame sweeper if for some reason there isnt an opening to set up on. He comes in usually just once and it's game over. The moveset might throw you guys off, but there is pretty ok reasoning behind it. Basically, I'm never EVER going to use a hidden power, so I figured why screw with the ivs and sacrifice satk points to get a hidden power. It's much more likely that setting up rain dances before dying so that manaphy or empoleon can win with double stab water attacks than it is to get a kill on swampert with hp grass. Swampert is nearly ALWAYS dead by the time I should even think about bringing jolteon in. So yea, no hidden powers for me. This is my guy who can beat scarfgar with his nice sdef, which is really sad because scarfgar does a number to this team. Luckily, they are usually saved for the lategame where jolt wins 1 vs. 1. This guy kinda functions like deoxys-s did once upon a time. Not much to explain here, jolteon just gets the job done when I need it to, and that job is just coming in lategame and killing shit. I also generally go to jolt if I'm nervous about going to ape after gengar explodes. Jolt is another force that wins 1v1 against most things after an explosion.


    so yea, that's the team in all its glory. Sacrifice, sweep, win, do your own thing and not worry about the opponent (this is the only way to keep the initiative really), etc etc. I guess I'll just go through the teambuilding process with you guys for shits and giggles.

    In the beginning, I decided that I would be using manaphy in the suspect test. I'm an offensive player who doesn't like to predict, and I knew what kind of team I had in mind, so any defensive / specs sets / whatever are out of the question. It followed that I was gonna go with np lo manaphy, to be able to also do some damage to blissey with +4 lo surfs. so, the team as it was in the beginning....

    After that, I decided that since manaphy lures tentacruels and vaporeons and ludicolos and other waters, as well as blissey, and does substantial damage to all of the above, as well as the fact that empoleon is basically needed on a special team to make it worthwhile, I added him in. so at this point, we have our two incredibly scary water types.

    So now, we have two water types that are sacrificing themselves to take out each others' counters. they are walled by the same thing, etc. etc. I decided to further expand this combination and add another fearsome special attacker to the mix. In came npape, making even more formidable offensive synergy between the three guys. At this point, bulky waters are walling my three sweepers on the team, making it easy to win by just killing off the water. I was quite pleased with the addition of ape, as it made a lot of sense. I checked at this point to make sure I had my bases covered. does the team have some speed? yes. can stuff set up on me easily? no. great!

    after I had my 3 pokemon core that pretty much breaks through teams on its own, I decided that I needed some sort of guy who is mean to bulky waters, in case I find myself up against one at full health. I figured charge beam lojolt fits the bill, and it's still incredibly hard to set up on, so we're good. jolt also can take advantage of double switches, meaning I can add an explosion or two to the team, helping me to take out blissey. Every pokemon is still an individual win condition, while everyone still contributes to an empoleon sweep. I'm fulfilling the preferred goal while still having lots of backups for the team to sweep. another pleasing step in building the team.

    So, now the team is pretty quick with two guys hitting 328 speed. however, there are a few too many ground weaks. and there are no explosions for blissey. hmm, logar? logar. I decided he could provide some early game devastation while also luring in blisseys and blowing up. in addition to that, cb bullet punches are easy for the rest of the team to set up on and do extra extra damage, so scizor is not a problem. logar also adds even more blistering speed to the team without resorting to choice scarves. and since I'm still all-special, physical walls have zero place vs. the team.

    And so, everything but the lead position has been decided. I decided to add even more speed to the team and have a guy who can do some early game damage. azelf has been the lead of my choice since early early june, and he remains an excellent lead today. I decided to try him out.

    And so, the team was complete, and it went through some playtesting. I found everything to be pretty good, except jolteon didnt ever make good use of the lo, I hardly ever switched moves save for going between charge beam and thunderbolt, and I missed a lot of kos, costing me games that I couldve won. so, I decided to go out on a limb, break a rule of thumb, and go specjolt. I haven't regretted the decision since. And so, all I needed to do was be extra careful and make sure grounds were out of the way. I found this to be incredibly easy for the team to do. and so, with the final changes set, I tried to ladder. And, to my delight, the team was incredibly successful.

    of course I need to do a threat list for the rmt to look nice right?

    Defensive Threats

    [​IMG] Blissey - explosions, sacrifices, etc. blissey generally comes in on gengar and dies, so I'm good. otherwise it comes in on ape or manaphy. if not, then I'm killing everything else so its ok. blissey has never been alive after empoleon or jolteon were revealed.

    [​IMG] Bronzong - takes early game damage from the get-go from azelf and gets at worst 2hkod by every pokemon on the team. ape fb kills it, shadow ball 2hkos, petaya torrent hydro pump ohkos it, etc. it rarely gets more than one turn to do anything. most of the time they try and switch in somewhere just to die.

    [​IMG] Celebi - gets ohkod by everything on the team except jolteon, who is only out in the lategame. it can't come in anywhere, literally.

    [​IMG] Cresselia - usually I set up empoleon on it due to the twave immunity, but it takes heavy damage from everyone before it can do anything significant. it's kinda like bronzong in that it can't switch in without taking heavy damage, and if it's coming in after something's dead, that means I've already set up and am ready to smash it.

    [​IMG] Donphan - on a team with no physical attacks or dragons, this guy doesnt come in at all.

    [​IMG]Dusknoir - ape comes in and sets up without issue. same with empoleon. this guy cant touch me.

    [​IMG] Forretress - No room to set-up on this team or spin at all. Pretty self-explanitory. he gets set up on by ape and empoleon as well.

    [​IMG] Gliscor - dealt with by every single member of this team.

    [​IMG] Gyarados - a bit problematic if it sets up on ape, but generally they cant take sr + fireblast + vacuum wave and then other stuff.

    [​IMG]Hippowdon - gets ohkod by near everything, 2hkod by gengar. a bit of a problem if they save it for the lategame when only jolteon is left but its pretty easy to beat.

    [​IMG] Jirachi - takes big damage early game from fb and gets 2hkod by everything. cant do any damage anywhere.

    [​IMG] Rotom-A - they usually try and absorb azelf explosions and take 60+ from psychic, sometimes I can get them with a still intact sash, in which case they just die there.

    [​IMG] Skarmory - no issues whatsoever

    [​IMG] Snorlax - it takes too much damage. it might kill something in the process, but it's not defensive enough to take on anyone but jolteon. it gets lured in generally by the rest of the team.

    [​IMG]Suicune - it takes lots of damage from everybody. generally comes in on ape just to get ohkod.

    [​IMG] Swampert - comes in on ape almost always. otherwise it gets 2hkod by everything and ohkod by ape where it usually tries to come in.

    [​IMG] Tentacruel - annoying, but generally it gets lured and weakened into emp range by manaphy+ape. they also have a habit of trying to absorb gengar focus blasts on stall teams between him and blissey. usually by just firing hypnosises and explosions I can end up crippling this guy and killing blissey with gengar, sealing a win.

    [​IMG] Tyranitar - only a problem for jolteon. nonissue.

    [​IMG] Vaporeon - gets stroked by ape when it tries to come in. gengar can also beat it, as can manaphy and jolteon. they are never alive at the same time as empoleon (i.e. i dont reveal him till they're dead)

    [​IMG] Zapdos - generally they try to come in on ape and die. nobody cares about zapdos really. like, everyone, once set up, can ohko it. and if it tries switching in it gets 2hkod by whatever.

    Offensive Threats

    [​IMG] Azelf - forces me to go to jolteon early game, but not much other issues so its good.

    [​IMG]Breloom - outsped and ohkod by everybody. nonissue.

    [​IMG] Dragonite - doesnt come in anywhere except vs. ape, but it takes too much damage. a nonissue.

    [​IMG]Dugtrio - ohkod by everybody except jolteon, but generally they try to go to it vs. ape.

    [​IMG] Electivire - usually comes in on gengar expecting a thunderbolt only to get 2hkod. they are never alive in the lategame, so jolteon doesnt care.

    [​IMG] Gallade - ohkod by gengar, ape, empoleon, manaphy, pretty much everone. cant come in.

    [​IMG]Gengar - all gengars have hp fire pretty much so mine outspeeds theirs. scarfgar is generally only in the lategame where jolt beats it.

    [​IMG]Gyarados - annoying but generally sr + repeated hits bring it down.

    [​IMG]Heatran - manaphy sets up on scarftrans, as can empoleon. empoleon really is the best answer.

    [​IMG] Heracross - cant come in anywhere. scarfed ones are easy to set up on.

    [​IMG] Infernape - gengar is cool for revenge killing. everyone ohkos this guy though so its ok.

    [​IMG]Jolteon - a thorn in my side. generally I have to sac my own jolt or let it get to low health just to weaken this guy.

    [​IMG] Kingdra - not bulky enough to take me on i.e. it takes too much damage from everyone and vacuum wave kos the ones that survive.

    [​IMG] Lucario - they no longer carry bullet punch so gengar can take it on. he cant set up anywhere, and once hes taken a tiny amount of damage vacuum wave does him in for good.

    [​IMG] Machamp - annoying little mf. i have to get lucky and not hit myself in confusion too many times. otherwise a few hits bring him down.

    [​IMG] Magnezone- never had any issues. generally they try to revenge kill ape or come in on emp as he agilities only to die.

    [​IMG] Mamoswine - ape revenge kills, though they can be annoying. usually they come in on weakened gengar and then get forced out by ape and lose.

    [​IMG] Metagross - takes big damage early game and cant come in anywhere. agilitiers with leftovers are a problem if they come in on gengar, though. but that almost never happens. if it does, generally sleep clause isnt up.

    [​IMG] Porygon-Z - cant set up anywhere, and the scarfers are easy to set up on.

    [​IMG] Salamence - doesnt set up very easily. and ape/gengar/jolt revenge kill it. scarfmence gets set up on.

    [​IMG] Scizor - gets set up on everywhere

    [​IMG] Starmie - annoying, but generally I can wear them down.

    [​IMG]Togekiss - cant come in anywhere

    [​IMG]Tyranitar - nobody but jolteon cares. and jolt is a lategamer anyways.

    [​IMG] Weavile - ape can set up on it, so can empoleon, but they're annoying when they come in on gengar. basically scizor but sometimes not choiced so eh.

    [​IMG] Yanmega- a thorn in my side again, but jolteon can beat it ok. empoleon can set up on them decently well with his buff sdef.

    [​IMG] Zapdos - nonissue for me, everyone ohkos or 2hkos.

    so yea comment/rate/fix/whatever
  2. YTP


    Jun 13, 2008
    EXCELLENT team. I'm just wondering how you get by special defensive CBTar... since nothing can (well wants to) switch in after it has come in on Jolteon. It will screw up your empoleons subs and manaphy will be pretty much done considering you have no recovery and you will be taking 16% for just attacking. I suppose prediction could get you around it though. Also in your threat list you dont counter anything really... you just plan that it doesn't get to set up which isn't always the case. But I don't want to get too much into that because I don't feel like talking a lot today.

    Just a minor nitpick:

    MAYBE HP Fire on Gengar over Hypnosis. Your team can't really handle SD Scizor very well outside of Infernape and Jolteon which are both one time switchins into Bullet Punch. Luring Scizor in with HP Fire would be cool =P. But seeing as you say that Gengar is "suicidal" and that your set up sweepers love Scizor to bullet punch... i dunno.

    This team is very cool in the fact that it is all special and you have more than one way of taking out Blissey.
  3. Stathakis

    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion

    Dec 28, 2007
    I almost never reveal jolteon until I have maybe 2 pokemon left. like, not until I know every pokemon on my opponent's team. he never... comes in on jolteon. and if he does, he's weakened.

    i just sac whoevers out to do huge damage to him, and then whatever comes in next can set up on him.

    if you tell me where something sets up on me I will tell you how i deal with it. it....IS always the case. if I can ohko near everything, where does anything set up on me?

    hp fire is OK, but firing off hypnosises means that I dont have to predict nearly as much. as for sd scizor, my switches may be one time switches to bullet punch, but the only way they're taking a bullet punch is if he stays in and dies, which means... he's dead and I handled him. I'd much rather throw a hypnosis and cripple anything that comes in on me than throw a hp fire and cripple scizor IF it comes in. any reliance on prediction means that your team isn't as good as it can be.

    This team is very cool in the fact that it is all special and you have more than one way of taking out Blissey.[/quote]
  4. kd24

    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Dec 21, 2007
    im still having trouble seeing how well you deal with blissey x=. when jolteon / manaphy / empoleon are all completely walled by it and your plan to defeat it rely on two exploders (and blissey will usually protect or just switch out of both of these since blissey will rarely want to fight gengar unless it is known to be choiced and azelf usually carries explosion) and for infernape to come out on top, you have a 49% chance of hitting two np focus blasts in a row to get the 2hko and by that time, you are probably paralyzed or have missed.

    While you can probably eliminate blissey against average opponents with gengar or with set up infernape, against truly good teams, blissey just seems to be a "headache" machine.

    so as great as a team this is, is it really a crime to put close combat over focus blast on infernape or even actually go as far as to use SD infernape? sd life orb close combat / stone edge / fire punch is ohkoing everything you mentioned with maybe the exception of swampert who will most likely be at very low health / if not dead anyway.

    this team is really cool though, but i just think sd infernape would really help out taking all water threats and you won't be relying on 70% and 85% accuracy to take things out (because if you are relying on np focus blast to take out swamp / vappy, you will soon be in a world of hurt).

    take it as you will, obviously the team has been very successful for you but putting a lot of everything on coin flips like that wont be very beneficial.

    also, just a quick question but how do you deal with DDMence, who has set up chance on jolteons rain dance (even though you probably dont use it often).
  5. Solidus


    Aug 22, 2005
    I originally was going to suggest the same thing as KD24, which was dropping Focus Blast for Close Combat, but when you visualize the fact that +2 Focus Blast's and Vacuum Wave's will be hitting Blissey and Tyranitar just as hard (if not harder) than a Close Combat coming from a minimum Attack, hindering nature'd Ape, it's not a necessary move replacement to make. Another thing is that you're probably going to be using Fire Blast + Vacuum Wave on a normal basis, so there isn't much need to change anything up.

    I don't really understand Jolteon's movespread. I understand the "not going for HP Grass" logic, but I'm still a bit iffy on his spread...

    Heh, that's all I noticed at a first glance. I can't really give an in-depth rate here because there isn't anything that needs a big change. I might have more to add later.
  6. reyscarface

    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusdefeated the Smogon Frontier

    Dec 9, 2008
    Thorns, i think Psychic is a must seeing how luring Blissey into a fall sense of security that you have no Explosion is very good to then explode on her.
    If you taunt her, she will just switch, meaning you exploded on Rotom or something.

    Oh yeah. Stall teams loooove to bring Rotom into Azelf, so Psychic dents them and leaves a whole open for something to sweep.

    Nice team Stath.
  7. Stathakis

    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion

    Dec 28, 2007
    guys this is how it goes. if the opponent brings blissey into manaphy, it's forced out with like 30% health left after manaphy dies, meaning sr puts it into even jolteons ko range. there are a total of two pokemon that can't put blissey into huge amounts of pain on this team: empoleon and jolteon. and if you read how I play this team, those guys are coming in during the lategame, so I know if the opponent has blissey or not. and for those of you who say "well what if they dont bring in blissey." well thats fine. if they dont want to bring in a special wall into my special attacker, I'll just kill shit because they can't wall me. that's the reason to not have npape. so that the opponent, if they want to live at all, they have to let me weaken blissey. no matter what my opponent does, they're fucked. so guys, quit saying blissey is a problem. I've beaten even the best of the best with this team, and I've played "good players" (IPL level good) who have used blissey and come out on top. in fact, the 3 or 4 losses that this team got were all vs. teams that didn't have blissey. blissey does not bother this team at all. oh and the whole 'blissey not coming in' thing is why npape > sdape. basically, I want to take advantage of blissey's inability to come in on this team as much as possible. infernape isn't just for waters! it helps me weaken any specially bulky pokemon. basically, by going with npape, I make a great synergy between everyone, because no matter who I sacrifice, they're always opening up a hole in the team. that's the way it goes. everyone helps everyone. that is true synergy. none of this "i take this attack, you take that one" or "everyone helps one pokemon." I have achieved a 'higher level of synergy' and by making anyone physical, I destroy that.

    as for dropping psychic on azelf, the reason I have psychic is to try and do as much damage as possible without exploding. the reason is, everyone expects explosion on azelf anyways, so they often try and bring rotoms in. by using psychic, I really don't mind if rotom comes in, as it can be annoying to this team, so weakening it from the get-go is fine. generally I dont explode until after azelf has scouted some of the team, which when the opponent is trying to flee from an explosion, it's easy to do. so yea, I need psychic. I dont' really need taunt on azelf because I dont even have any sr weaks, so I'd much rather get the extra hit on whatever opponent as they sr than taunt them.

    on infernape, I have focus blast as a solid stab move that does heaps of damage to whatever comes in. fire resists that take neutral from fighting, stuff like kingdra and the like, that want to come in on ape are also ohkod by focus blast. and of course I want to be as wearing to blissey as possible.

    as for jolteon, you guys have to understand that everything other than thunderbolt is purely filler. if for whatever reason the opponent is gonna kill jolt next turn I sometimes find myself in a position where just rain dancing so that manaphy doesnt have to set up is the only way to win the game. basically, I'm just adding another win condition and sacrificing a filler move.
  8. panamaxis

    panamaxis how many seconds in eternity?
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Aug 30, 2008
    Excellent team. And yes, I did read the intro.

    I have played people using this team, lost once, won one. I was using stall and believe stathakis, taking out blissey was not as huge of a challenge as it might seem. That infernape is going to wreck stall on its own, and just like stathakis said, I was pretty much forced to use blissey on infernape and gengar, even though I really did try to save it for late game (once I figured out it was this team).

    So, If stathakis says blissey is not a problem, believe him, blissey is not a problem.

    From what I can read into your playstyle for your intro, it seems that azelf and gengar will usually be sacrificed early game, am I correct? Scarf Dugtrio if saved late game is going to have a field day with your team, OHKOing half your team with ease, as soon as manaphy sets up and kills one or two things, it's pretty much GG and infernape won't KO with vaccum wave without a nasty plot (will it?). I know that I am doing the whole: If x dies y sweeps thing here, but it does apply moreso on a sacrificial offensive team such as yours (once gengar has exploded and azelf is dead, who do you normally bring out?).

    Sorry I don't have much of a better rate, there isn't much to fix, unless you want suggestions for standard and to replace manaphy etc. but I got the impression that this team was just made to help prove your point on "offense doesn't need prediction to win" and you probably won't expect too many beneficial rates (as the team doesn't really need changing unless you're trying to make it work for standard).

    If you want advice on how to make the team better for standard, let me know and I'll try to help you replace manaphy and fix up your latias weakness.
  9. Stathakis

    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion

    Dec 28, 2007
    I havent used this team since posting it =/

    yea scarfdug, and well, anything fast and a ground type, are huge issues for me. luckily, blissey and scarfdug/gon are never on the same team, so they try and revenge kill manaphy, letting me get a free kill on something dangerous. yea, the only saving grace is that scarfdug and scarfgon try to come in as ape plots, so I get a big dent (read, 90%) on them with vacuum wave (I do like 90% to duggy without the plot). scarfgon has never given me problems, mainly because people bring it out early game into azelf so I know it's there and play more carefully with gengar (i.e. I sac manaphy early). but yea you found the biggest problem with the team. I just usually try and make sure everyone's set up when they are fighting stuff like dug and flygon

    pretty much yea. this team was built for suspect, and I have no intention of using this team ever again. latias pretty much shits all over it, so eh. the reason I was comfortable posting this team is because I have retired it.

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