Surely having a lure specially designed to take out a specific threat to your team puts you at a disadvantage when facing a team that does not have that threat?
The key to a good lure is making one that isn't useless outside of luring things - that's why good lures are quite hard to come by, and the successful ones are usually somewhat known by experienced players. A great example of a successful lure is Hidden Power Flying on Specs or Life Orb Keldeo, used to lure in and attack Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss. Thanks to Keldeo's awesome STABs, it easily fits HP Flying into its moveset, and it's not at a disadvantage against most teams because most of the time it gets by just fine with Hydro Pump, Sacred Sword, and Scald.Surely having a lure specially designed to take out a specific threat to your team puts you at a disadvantage when facing a team that does not have that threat?
HP Fire is extremely common now, and it's too common to be a lure, it's more of a coverage move.I personally run HP Fire on all my greninja sets. I have no idea how common this is, I got back into the game after a year, but its hilarious when I predict the ferrothorn switch in and hit him in the face with stab HP fire
Not really a lure either :/I tell ya hwat one thing that's been busting my balls is HP grass on Ninja. I got used to it being hp fire and switchin in Azu only to get shat on by a stab grass move. Good lure tho, caught me off guard several times
Grass Knot hits just as hard as HP Grass. I suppose if you really hate Rotom-W and do not want to run into Iron Barbs/Rock Helmet, but Grass Knot hits Hippowdon and Tyranitar hard without missing Hydro Pump and/hard changing yourself to the vulnerable Ice type (against Bullet Punch).I tell ya hwat one thing that's been busting my balls is HP grass on Ninja. I got used to it being hp fire and switchin in Azu only to get shat on by a stab grass move. Good lure tho, caught me off guard several times
By my definition of "lure", it does not merely take advantage of information asymmetry (the mere identity of whatever coverage moves it may run), but it is run so infrequently that most competent players would not be wary of it. Now using that definition, is HP Flying really a "lure" on Keldeo or Heat Wave on Zapdos? I thought those are fairly common moves, although it is more of a lure on Zapdos because Heat Wave wouldn't hit anything else hard (except Scizor) since it is being used on defensive Pokemon?The key to a good lure is making one that isn't useless outside of luring things - that's why good lures are quite hard to come by, and the successful ones are usually somewhat known by experienced players. A great example of a successful lure is Hidden Power Flying on Specs or Life Orb Keldeo, used to lure in and attack Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss. Thanks to Keldeo's awesome STABs, it easily fits HP Flying into its moveset, and it's not at a disadvantage against most teams because most of the time it gets by just fine with Hydro Pump, Sacred Sword, and Scald.
An infrequently used coverage move is by (my) definition, a lure. The questions are whether the opportunity cost of using the move are too high to warrant its use and the efficacy of the move against its target.Not really a lure either :/
Just another coverage move, albeit not used as much as other ones.
I would argue the contrary; HP Grass/Grass Knot (Grass Knot is better, just FYI) Greninja fits the definition of a lure quite well. It's really only used to take out one Pokemon - that being Azumarill, and to a lesser extent Rotom-W - but it does its job admirably, considering that Azumarill hard-checks any Greninja that's not running the move. And when it comes down to it, a lure is really just a Pokemon that has a less-popular coverage move that hits a specific target or group of targets that is commonly a first response to said Pokemon.Not really a lure either :/
Just another coverage move, albeit not used as much as other ones.
GK / HP Grass Greninja used to be a lure in addition to being a great all out attacker in general. Now it's not a lure because everyone expects it and scouts for it, it became a standard option that started as a luring option, and because it was useful besides the luring aspect by covering very important threats, it became standard. For the same reason FB Garchomp is not a lure, everybody expects it. About HP Flying Specs Keldeo, i am not sure, i would argue it's not a luring move it's just that when the opponent's best answer to Keldeo is Mega Venusaur they will go to it even with the fear of a possible HP Flying because they don't have something to switch into its STABs.I would argue the contrary; HP Grass/Grass Knot (Grass Knot is better, just FYI) Greninja fits the definition of a lure quite well. It's really only used to take out one Pokemon - that being Azumarill, and to a lesser extent Rotom-W - but it does its job admirably, considering that Azumarill hard-checks any Greninja that's not running the move. And when it comes down to it, a lure is really just a Pokemon that has a less-popular coverage move that hits a specific target or group of targets that is commonly a first response to said Pokemon.
Just because it's somewhat common doesn't mean it's not a lure - in fact, it's indicative of it being a great and useful lure. Sets such as Thunder Punch Dragonite, Hidden Power Ice Landorus-I, Fire Blast Tyranitar/Garchomp, Salac Berry Talonflame, and HP Flying Keldeo are all commonplace, but they still carry out the duties of a lure - they aim to draw the opponent into making a risky move and catching them off-guard.
see the problem with this set is the lack of recovery, which will really sting in handling mons like azu/Keld repeatedly. i'd just run zone and synth > hp fire.
Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 232 HP / 252 SpA / 20 Atk
Quiet Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power Fire
- Earthquake
Brings in Heatran, only to face a EQ to the face. I chose a quiet nature so I don't lose bulk unlike mild or rash. This can also help with SpDef Scizor in the rain and other steels that HP Fire won't cover.
Giga drain>water typing?see the problem with this set is the lack of recovery, which will really sting in handling mons like azu/Keld repeatedly. i'd just run zone and synth > hp fire.
that's not the point, the opponent will switch and you'll still have a weakened ass venusaur. giga is not enough.Giga drain>water typing?