Gen 2 A look at the "current meta"

#26
You're not using Kingdra, why bring it up?
Offensively: Jolt > Esp > Vap
Explain.

I'll give you 999 jolt is far better than Vap/Espy, but Esp > Vap? Why? Psychic has questionable coverage, having to deal with immunities. That same LS starmie walling vap is walling Espy in this case as well. Vap has a far better shot vs LS Blissey imo. Espy can pass out... but so can Vap all things considered.

And there's really no point talking about it. Prove it.
 
#27
I'll give you 999 jolt is far better than Vap/Espy, but Esp > Vap? Why? Psychic has questionable coverage, having to deal with immunities. That same LS starmie walling vap is walling Espy in this case as well. Vap has a far better shot vs LS Blissey imo. Espy can pass out... but so can Vap all things considered.
Yea, that's honestly pretty close. Basically, if they have a ttar then Vap is much better and Espeon is nearly worthless. If they don't, Espeon is really fucking good basically always.

I've been really liking substitute Espeon lately, actually (over BP). It basically shuts down the idea of exploding or statusing Espeon to tame it, plus you get the opportunity to fish for Thunder misses/poor STs against electrics, which can be game over in some cases. Need more testing, though.

And there's really no point talking about it. Prove it.
I have no idea what this means.
 

Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#28
I think HP Water would be the best coverage move for Espeon... it deals with the worst counters. Hits TTar, Houndoom, and Steelix for Super Effective.

Starmie, Slowbro, Exeggutor (with Giga Drain), and Skarmory are a nuisance though. However, if you can force out Slowbro and Skarmory on the Rest, then they would have to sleep for 2 turns next time Espeon sets up. Umbreon could be a pest, too, but it hardly breaks Espeon's Substitutes with Pursuit, and Espeon can force it on the defensive with +3, which shouldn't take too long.
 
#29
It means, play it. I don't think Jolteon shines in play as it does on paper, because it has nothing to offer defensively ("walling" electrics, not really). Offense and defense are infinitely intertwined.
 
#30
I'm confused. You were talking about Vap vs Espeon when you said that and now you're talking about Jolteon.

Admittedly I haven't played Jolteon a ton, but I've played it a solid amount. Vap and Espeon I've played endlessly really.

As far as Jolteon not actually shining I don't understand why you feel like that because yes, offense and defense are completely intertwined and that's why Jolteon can work. Offense IS defense at times. It doesn't "wall" electrics but you don't have to wall them if you get in for cheap on them and are a threat to beat them and everything else.

I'm not really saying anything that bold here that needs serious "proving." Jolteon is not an Uber it's just the most threatening offensively out of the 3 growtheons. I only really give it the nod over Vap as an overall pokemon because of the potency of joltwak.
 

havoc

pottlepalooza
is a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#31
I'm going to respond to a lot of stuff.

Prefixeons: Vaporeon has 130 more HP, a STAB attack with no immunities, and no physical weaknesses. this allows it to utilize Rest--even without Sleep Talk--reliably, meaning a status affliction isn't the end of the world for it...indeed, with Sleep Talk Vaporeon can take the Toxics and Lovely Kisses that others can't. this is why Vaporeon is such a bigger threat offensively than both Espeon and Jolteon. it's the same reason why Snorlax is such a big offensive threat--because it can take a hit and a status affliction.

it's my opinion that the difficulty providing the support necessary for Espeon and Jolteon to be sweepers far outweighs the potential benefits. note that 4 of the 5 most popular pokemon on that list (Snorlax, Exeggutor, Tyranitar, Raikou) all have an advantage 1v1 on both Espeon's and Jolteon's "sweeper sets," not to mention that it's not a stretch to think of seeing all four of those pokemon on one team. Espeon gets particularly exposed twofold here since (1) the mutual weakness of Psychic and Dark (Bug) is physical--not boosted by Growth--and (2) Dark and Psychic pokemon don't have characteristically horrendous Special Defense.

any second attack on Espeon, more often than not, will be a burden due to the fact that any attack will only be able to work against 1 or 2 of the vast number of things that can take it, status it, or stall out Morning Sun PP 1v1--not to mention Espeon doesn't have a 120 base power STAB attack to use on Snorlax--and therefore that 4th slot is better used for Baton Pass (added bonus of dodging Pursuit) or perhaps a supporting move (Toxic, Reflect, Charm, Substitute if not already using it). Jolteon generally needs a 2nd attack no matter what since the Ground immunity would be otherwise too glaring. that, and Jolteon (in my opinion) needs two Growths before it really becomes a threat, which is one Growth more than it can usually get in.

Jolteon and Espeon to me are best when you take advantage some/most of their best assets (Growth, Speed, the realistic ability to Baton Pass since they can soften up many/most common pseudo-Hazers) and not try to make them do too much; Vaporeon's stats and typing are just extremely well distributed for it to sweep, Jolteon and Espeon not so much.

of course, Vaporeon also can be a great Baton Passer in its own right, but I think that's assumed.
 

havoc

pottlepalooza
is a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#32
if it weren't for Marowak, I'd suggest sneaking on Fire as the Hidden Power for Electrics, BP Jolteon in particular...Rhydon looks to be nonexistent right now, Nidoking is sparse (and no one except me has ever used Roar Nidoking), Fire hits both Exeggutor and Steelix...but nevertheless, the 40% vs. 20% on Marowak is an important enough difference to stick with Water, since you have to play like it's always potentially one turn away from singlehandedly taking down an entire team.

Heracross: I've always been (still am) a big Heracross fan and think it's one of the elite GSC pokemon, but even without Skarmory, Heracross gets walled by quite a few things depending on its 4th move. Zapdos of course, but S-Toss is also pretty helpless against the Ghosts and Miltank. Curse doesn't fare any better against those (Zapdos Thunder is a 2HKO with any chip damage, CH Thunder is nearly an OHKO) and has more walls in Steelix and Forretress. if you're not careful, that Megahorn PP can also get drained pretty quickly due to things resisting it that you don't think about normally (Gengar 4x, Machamp, Nidoking for example); most people just seem to think about Zapdos and Skarmory, but that's not the whole story. of course, Heracross is just one of six pokemon on a team...but I think it's more of a team player than most people think.

I've always kind of liked Forretress, though I never really used it. humble as it may be, having STAB on HP Bug is huge for that advantage on Starmie and also being able to dissuade Tyranitar from getting a free switchin.

in my mind, Misdreavus is a very scary pokemon. it's one of the few (along with Marowak and Snorlax) that can change an entire match in one turn. all it takes is one turn for it to ruin an entire team. naturally, Misdreavus isn't taking out an entire team by itself, but you get the idea.

I like Machamp being in the top 10, that's pretty cool.
Starmie at #16 blows my mind. Misdreavus at #27 does too, but to a lesser extent.
Dragonite and Forretress both used more than Marowak?
 

Jorgen

World's Strongest Fairy
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
#33
You're looking at the older, crappier stats, havoc, since the newer stats have much more reasonable usage numbers. Still, even those are pretty old, check these out. One thing that jumps out immediately: Cloyster #2. Then, you've got Arcanine being used more than Zard, Quag, Rhydon, and Nidoking, which is just shameful. And people really need to "re-discover" Misdreavus, it's not that bad. At all.

As far as Curse/ST Heracross, it has fewer walls than are at first apparent. It can luck out Thunder Zapdos, which is pretty common now. It sets up on Gengar without FP/Psychic, although it's more vulnerable to the random CH/effect rate mishaps than ST Vap is against its "free" setup on Psychic Starmie. Plus, Hypnosis and Dbond can give it issues, so it's not exactly a free setup, but it's certainly a matchup in Hera's favor. Steelix and Curse Forry are problematic, yes, but the former leaves openings for other things, whereas the latter does that and is rarely used, to boot. Machamp + Nidoking, again, can't really beat it unless they run Fblast. Dnite too, really, though you can add HP Flying to Dnite's Hera-stopping arsenal.

Curse Hera has the potential to get stuffed by a lot of common things that resist it, but in the current meta, only Skarmory and Steelix commonly have that combination of typing + moves to be able to consistently shut it down. Miltank too, to an extent, though those Megahorns on the switch can really add up.
 
#34
Those aren't the newest stats. 92 battles? Please. On the other hand:

ST Growth vap has become the definitive set. I've recently switched to HP, let's see how long it takes for that to catch on.
1 | Growth | 78.72 %
2 | Rest | 74.47 %
3 | Hydro Pump | 70.21 %

4 | Sleep Talk | 70.21 %
5 | Surf | 23.40 %
And Eon discussion is independent of meta anyway (except Espeon, hence Espeon is the most inferior or the 3). Remind me again havoc, what does Marowak do? Joltwak the noobs? Yeah, pretty bad. Marowak's unreliable, gets punished hard, etc. There's not enough upside to Marowak, but just enough to pull off surprise wins sometimes. Machamp's too high anyway, but obviously new gen players are under the impression that Machamp beats Snorlax.

@nitro: Jolteon doesn't "beat it and everything else". Snorlax. That's in your way. You have the added advantage of "surprise" in your 4th move, but surprise only gets you so far. And by definition, if something relies on surprise, it's by nature, a gimmick. Now, obviously jolteon works without the surprise factor, but not as well. It needs a defensive side to warrant use (hence no one, including us, ever got around to using Charizard). Charizard works in short spurts, like Jolteon, and like Espeon. When you've got a 75%+ Snorlax staring down your neck, it doesn't matter if you're at +1, you're not Thundering. Argue all you want about how it shares HP's power, you're not clicking attack unless you've already lost all "legitimate" paths of winning.

You know damn well "intertwine" doesn't work like that. Offense is NOT defense (except with explosion), and defense sure as hell is NOT offense. What theorymon argument are you trying to pull here? Good pokemon, reliable ones, contribute offensively and defensively; and really only those that contribute on both ends are worth of a nod for the top rankings. Vaporeon does that. You're saying Jolteon is threatening enough offensively that it doesn't "need" that? I don't think so. In order for jolteon to make an impact, it's going in on Thunders, it's taking that risk to contribute to the team. You're playing to dodge paras, and once they land para, jolteon's dunzo. Once Jolteon gets in, it's main threats are Steelix/Egg/Snorlax/roar Raikou/(Quag), so it's going to have the predict. It doesn't have the luxury that Vaporeon has, of trading hits and dealing with it later. You'd want to hit Steelix on the switch, and not having to "trade" with it (steelix has the option of roar/eq/explosion really, and similar chance to use any of them); Egg's a weird matchup, but ideally you'd hit those on the switch too to avoid whatever status/psychic/explosion/idk; Raikou as well obviously, but Growthing on the kou switch isn't the end of the world either. Now vs snorlax? You don't want to trade hits with it, since +1 is still doing pitiful damage [especially with tbolt] and it's 2hkoing you with return/frustration or DE (and gambling BSes). So I guess... it's kinda better to hit Snorlaxes on the switch as well. So in all scenarios, unless Jolteon's "set for take off", all it's doing is throwing out Thunders on the switch, while... switching into them? And even in best case scenarios (aka you get Snorlax down to about 65%, it'll switch in on a growth now at 71), you'd still need 2 consecutive thunders. HP is already pretty unreliable at 64%, but 49%? Odds are still pretty fucking bad imo. So ultimately, while Jolteon has "far more coverage" offensively, it's falls behind Vap against the most important one: snorlax. Also, Jolteon's running BP, who are you kidding? BP at least lets you pass out in the above scenarios, possibly putting you on the brighter side of things for once.

Jolteon + Miltank sounds like an on paper "good", similar to Espeon + Miltank, because I can tell you it's very lackluster. Similar to Drumlax + Miltank in terms of efficiency.

You're not arguing about whether or not Jolteon's good, you're arguing that it's better than Vaporeon. You're going to have to do a lot better. Some in-game stuff to show it working. Jolteon is more threatening because of said "surprise". joltwak (assuming you meant lax because wak blows) is a one turn deal, you're growthing or agi-ing turn 1, and that's your game plan; jolteon, either growthpass or agipass, are not one and done setups; they get stopped by plenty of stuff, and that surprise goes away real fast. Gameplan is the same for either. Switch to Snorlax on the Jolteon in, then return/de until pass happens (by here, you should already know if it AGIs or growths, so the surprise is gone), then play accordingly. You're not really doing anything different. Joltwak/lax gets stopped at its roots by kou/lix; growtheon also gets stopped at its roots by kou/lix. Surprise isn't really surprise if your opponent can play against you the same way. What's keeping Vaporeon from running BP again? Because it has better things to do. Aka nothing. Vap has the option of AA-ing vs curselaxes too; roaring out cunes if we want to go down that route of "surprise". Is Jolteon dropping speed DVs to roar Raikou? Nah. And Vaporeon obviously makes up leaps and bounds on Jolteon defensively, not sure what bullshit you're spewing about its defense being "overrated".

And Jolteon share some pretty bad qualities with Espeon. It needs an "inferior set" to be popular in order for its "better set" to shine. In Espeon's case, it needs the "inferior" 2-attacker in order for the BP set to shine. Likewise, Jolteon needs the "inferior" joltwak/lax/non-passing jolteon in order for growthpass jolt to shine.
 
#35
Marowak 999s in a single turn and isn't 2hkoed by HP Electrics and doesn't have to, well kill itself to get that 999. Its not doing a hell of a lot defensively since it is really frail, but it has the advantage of obliterating everything that isn't named Skarmory with Rock Slide/Earthquake. It has to play around waters/eggy, but its still certainly scary especially when you actually try and play its strengths by spreading paras.But i'm sure you already knew that.

You really send a lot of mixed messages when you actually suggest Marowak with Paralysis in the first post, then proceed say it just flat out blows in another. (hopefully you just meant in conjunction with Jolteon and not entirely, since for all its faults its not a bad sweeper)

Besides, what's reliable by itself other than Snorlax?
 
#36
Vap's defense is overrated. It has to sleep talk to be defensively viable. I can sleep talk with Jolteon and make it valid defensively too, you know, but Jolteon's actually better than that.

So I guess you're taking it back that "you'll give me Jolteon" then?

Of course I meant lax when I said joltwak. Joltwak is just the brand of the concept.

Here's what's important:

-I don't think Jolteon is a better growther than Vaporeon. It's a better pokemon overall because it has more options. Yes, it can surprise. That's great. It can growth or it can agility. It's the best passer. It's a really fast hard hitting electric. These are really good things. Vap is good too, I just don't think it's as versatile. Most of the time it's an inferior Suicune. Occasionally it's an unstoppable juggernaut.

-Nice rant about surprise being gimmicky and not that good etc. Too bad surprise is devastating when you're talking about Jolteon, who only needs one wasted turn on your part to beat you. Considering that every team needs to be built with some sort of plan for handling joltwak, and that at the absolute minimum a team will have 2 "soft" stops (electric + lax) to Vaporeon, I don't feel that Vaporeon is as impactful on the metagame, sorry. Plus, at this point in the game surprise is what wins most battles between good players anyway other than luck, so I don't know why you're so quick to dismiss surprise.

-Vaporeon is much better against Lax. No question. Jolteon still has less random walls and a much easier situation vs opposing electrics, too.

And I'm not concerned with proving any of this. This is just my opinion on what I consider to be a pretty close call where either side is understandable. You're more than welcome to not give a shit about any of it.
 

Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#37
Nitro said:
-Nice rant about surprise being gimmicky and not that good etc. Too bad surprise is devastating when you're talking about Jolteon, who only needs one wasted turn on your part to beat you. Considering that every team needs to be built with some sort of plan for handling joltwak, and that at the absolute minimum a team will have 2 "soft" stops (electric + lax) to Vaporeon, I don't feel that Vaporeon is as impactful on the metagame, sorry. Plus, at this point in the game surprise is what wins most battles between good players anyway other than luck, so I don't know why you're so quick to dismiss surprise.
What surprise, though? Growtheon is pretty much dealt similarly as any other Jolteon, or HP Electric for the matter (Ground Type, Electric Resists, and / or Snorlax), so a good GSC team should have enough stops to readily resist a Jolteon sweep.

However, I could see where Jolteon could be destructive late-game, when Snorlax and Ground Types have racked up damage or asleep. It probably requires less team support than Charizard, thanks to its blistering Speed. However, probably more risky than Bellyzard, since Jolteon is relying on Thunder to muscle through Snorlax and other threats.
 
#38
Can you really sleep talk with jolteon? Can you? Would you? Ok, then it's not worth mentioning. Same argument to retarded stuff like Kingdra. Vap's defense is underrated, maybe you're overrating it, but that doesn't make it any less formidable. Boo-hoo, it doesn't survive a DE off 366 after taking double Thunders off 298. So what? Did you expect it to?

Smeargle's the best passer. Jolteon runs into the same problems whether it's passing Agility or Growth: Snorlax and Raikou. Vap forces plays that Suicune doesn't; they're not comparable at all. "Really fast hard hitting electric"; sounds redundant.

Vap has 2 soft walls at all times; so does Jolteon. It's an electric after all.

Jolteon has less random walls, in the sense that it'll take 2 consecutive thunders, while compromising 2/3s of his life taking the "randoms" down (ttar, machamp, heracross). And there's still Egg vs Steelix vs wak/nido/rhydon coverage that you have to choose between. And can't forget lax. And the odd Raikou still roaring. What about Blissey?

Surprise wins games. Of course. But what surprise doesn't do is change a meta, which is what you're proposing. Jolteon is a better off pitch than Vaporeon, who kinda defines the meta in itself. This is the Charizard/Quagsire vs Skarm/Suicune comparison; Charizard/Quag wins games, but you can't even begin to consider a meta without Skarm/Cune (whose usefulness is downplayed by the fact that everyone considers them when building a team). Vaporeon's usually accounted for, Jolteon isn't.

I don't feel that Vaporeon is as impactful on the metagame, sorry.
Now you're just trolling. Like with HP electrics, you don't technically have to go out of your way and "prepare" for it, so to speak, if you don't want to or can't spare the room. Does that make it any less "impactful"? Nah.

Anyway, if Jolteon is better, then use it. Prove it. You don't have to argue for it. If it's really good, people pick up on it, you shouldn't have to justify something that's truly good anyway.

EDIT: @Electro Gypsy: And of course I send mixed signals. There's two sides to every pokemon. And when talking about how to use certain things, which side would you want to hear?

I'm merely pointing out that Marowak falling behind Dragonite/Forretress isn't exactly a surprise, and it really shouldn't be. Having said that, does that make Marowak a bad pokemon? Not really. Because Dragonite/Forretress are great pokemon in their own rights. If something is an inferior Snorlax, does that make it a bad pokemon? No. Now I wouldn't even call Marowak "inferior" to Dragonite/Forretress, but just the fact that its "lesser usage" doesn't throw up any red flags.

Now, likewise, Dragonite has upsides and downsides too. It threatens everything readily, comes in on spikes, etc etc wins some games flat out. But on the flip side, Dragonite falls short of some pretty important damage thresholds, and is very suseptible to bad luck. It CAN'T win some games, etc etc, but these are things you have to deal with yourself. All pokemon have downsides. Curselax has coverage problems, and there's no way around it. Drumlax is a bitch to play. HP electrics sometimes is setup bait for... Jolteon, which is pretty gnarly if your team's weak to it.

Furthermore, Vaporeon has problems as well. 8 PP only goes so far (but ST helps in that regard). It's bulky enough to take quite a few hits (50/50 chance to survive 2 jolteon tbolts; 50/50 to survive 3 egg giga drains, 3 nido thunders, 3 lax returns; takes 3 lax bslams easy, 3 starmie tbolts easy, takes 2 megahorns, etc), but NOT enough to take a couple other ones (not enough for zap's tbolt, not enough to take 2 dnite thunders and a de, not enough to take gengar's tbolts, etc). Depends how you want to argue it. Jolteon has great coverage, and poor coverage, depends on how you want to look at things. Guaranteed to survive a Nido EQ (but that goes away when HP is factored in), 50/50 taking 2 snorlax returns (again, changes with HP factored in).

I'm careful not to point out that Jolteon "sucks" in any way. Vap's better, but that doesn't make Jolteon bad. With Vap, you're looking at top 10 consistent material, whereas at best, Jolteon's one of the best "surprise" pokes in the game, but by definition, that makes it an "overall" worse pokemon. Something that's countered and accounted for consistently team after team that still performs is probably better "overall" than something that relies on... well, surprise. Analogy: if you're "spoofing" and creating new accounts to get "different" battles (which you do, so you can relate to this example), then naturally people play a bit differently against you, for better or for worse. This is undeniable. There's NO WAY you would play against a random on PO with the same style/concentration/prediction/thinking/whatever as you would if you were playing someone in this thread. That just doesn't happen. I know for me personally, if I can't recognize the person I'm playing, I'm going all out reckless plays to win faster (since I expect to win against a nobody obviously), and because against any bad player, it's far easier to recover from any run of bad luck or misprediction than against someone who knows what they're doing. That wouldn't be the case if I were playing someone I knew and respected to a degree. Knowing the player is just as important as knowing the team.

Again, if Jolteon truly good, it doesn't need to hide behind the shadows and prey on unsuspecting teams/matchups/metas. Jolteon technically "can" do that, but it has an unproven track record of "doing".
 
#39
Top 10 consistent material for Vap? Does that mean you think Vap is top 10? We probably rank Jolteon pretty similarly. I think you just have Vaporeon way, way higher than I do.

How is Vaporeon that impactful on the metagame at all? It's basically like Machamp. Lots of potential, tends to do well against lots of common pokemon, but has lots of random walls and basically thrives when being overlooked. Vap can never touch top 10 because there are too many ways to stop it if it were really THAT important to consciously prepare for.

Genuinely curious: How many other teams besides THE team have you used Vaporeon on with consistent success against players that you respect?

Vaporeon is not at all what I think of when talking about consistency. Offensively, it's horridly inconsistent. It's basically all or nothing, depending on the other team's structure (and it's a lot more nothing than it is all). Defensively I'll give you that it's consistent, but then again, being able to switch into ttar and nidoking a couple of times is not really anything to write home about.
 
#40
It passes too.

Vap is one of the best "alternate" routes to taking bait explosion from steelix, cloyster, and egg. Who does that again? Snorlax/Zapdos/Raikou/Suicune, but that would mean bait-exploding is leaving its mark on their intended targets.

Offensively, it "forces" plays (cune), or it's actively contributing (most everything else). Lax isn't stopping it, electrics need luck, egg/cloy need to explode on it to kill it, which means they're not exploding on other things; pick your poison. What exactly DO you expect from it offensively? Isn't any and all variations of curselax hit or miss? Isn't even bait explosion hit or miss (e.g. running into Umbreon/Houndoom with Egg/Gengar, running into Vap, Miltank, etc)? Machamp's hit or miss, cursehera's hit or miss, dnite's hit or miss (literally), spikes anything, what ISN'T? Maybe Drumlax. But even then, there needs to be a ton of proper prediction to get around explosions/missy even AFTER getting it set up. If you're looking for "reliable" offense to that extreme of a degree, GSC is not the place to find it.

because there are too many ways to stop it if it were really THAT important to consciously prepare for.
WHAT is a hard stop to Vaporeon? Technically, if we were to argue it, just Kingdra/Starmie. Zam runs out of encores, Cune gets roared, Vap already can beat Snorlax with minimal help and average luck, ditto electrics. Leech seed egg is annoying, but there's the option of IB. If jolteon can get around kou with thunder para fps, then we can pretty much use the same argument that IB freeze gets around anything. Everything is a "soft" stop at best.

If vap's offense is anything remotely close to Machamp, is there any question that with what it has to offer defensively, it isn't in the top 10? Probably not. I'd rank Jolteon near the other perennial offensive OU pokes, the likes of nido, wak, and machamp. That's nothing to be ashamed of imo, since Jolteon functions very similarly with those 3, but just on the special side. Mid-teens I take it.
 
#41
Obviously it's not as good offensively as Machamp. But Machamp is also not very good, and by that I mean, not top 10.

Vap and Jolt are both mid/upper teens imo and have no prayer of going higher than that.

If Vap WAS actually that good people would actually bother to put LS on starmie, or if they're really desperate, *gasp* use blissey.

Vap (and all the growtheons) take advantage of the fact that they're really potent if uncountered but also not quite good enough to necessarily be worth changing your team to counter directly. The fact that they aren't THAT high of a priority to stop actually helps them find a niche of effectiveness that could easily be stuffed if they were to somehow emerge as truly dominant pokemon, and even while being "overlooked", they still find themselves occasionally stuffed accidentally by stuff that's totally viable for general use (leech seed egg, roar suicune in vap's case).
 
#42
Starmie is a spinner, we can agree on that. It needs recover and an attack. Agreed. Surf is preferred unless you want to be pursuited by ttar all day, not to mention if you're running Starmie (and want to WIN a game), you won't double up on waters, so that's your last ditch wak/lix stop. Zard too. So for the last slot, common practice is Psychic, since it's pretty wise to keep Gengar from blocking spin, which is the primary reason it's used in the first place.

So, I'm not really saying Vap is good enough to warrant Starmie's primary role from being a spinner to... a Vap wall, but does that really prove anything? Hardly.

Other options in the final slot are twave and reflect, which are primarily used to stop lax from capitalizing off Starmie so much.

So again, if given the choice to covering Snorlax or covering Vap, one chose to cover Snorlax, does that prove anything? Not really.

Does not using LS Starmie (and starmie in general) detract from Vap's value? Not really.

Blissey is ultimate set up bait. What are you on?

EDIT: Damn. Tentacruel. Forgot about him.
 
#43
My distaste for a slower paced GSC game has some pretty negative impacts though. Skarmory almost dropped out of the top 10, which isn't right for a "balanced" metagame. Heracross can probably rape more than half the teams flat out as of now. Skarmory is an important check in GSC for a multitude of things, to ensure than offensive teams can't just "cheat" their coverage by neglecting some specific moves.

No suicune? Mixed sweepers are getting an artificial push. You losing to random "offense"? Use fucking suicune. Either Toxic it, or IB it, Sleep talk or Roar. Take your pick at walling vaps, mixed sweepers to no end.

Too many offensive options for stalls imo.

NYPC introduced lklax and growtheons, which can completely break the old standard stalls teams.
LKdrum forces stalls to run a ghost or they lose 99%. And if you are using a ghost, you are not using something else, which means you are not walling something else. Moreover, pursuitters makes lkdrum too broken imo, for anything without quick offense. There is also LK without drum, something that the classic skarm+miltank can't wall; and if you run a third counter, you are not using something else, so you are not walling something else.

Growthvap just destroys the stcune stall, forcing stalls to run roarcune instead or something; which leaves teams vulnerable to sleeps (eggy comes to mind, nidoking etc), and to an extent more vulnerable to mixsweepers. And depending on what you do to cover that problem, you open up something else (i.e, if you stkou, jolteon agi/growth passes.

Growthespeon just rapes through stalls without roarttar. And if you use ttar, you are not using something else; you aren't walling something else.

That's the problem imo. In too many battles, the stall team has to almost completely rely on their offense to defeat offensive teams before their offense destroys the stalls. The player that used stalls realises that and thinks: if I have to use my offense to beat most (well built) offensive teams, I just use offensive teams rather than stall, as it provides quicker offense.

I'm not saying that there should be a team capable of 100% walling everything, as obviously, this would be the dumbest meta ever, but that can wall everything for some time, hopefully for enough time until you break your opponent's defense with their offense. Wasn't this GSC few years ago? I mean, Skarm with bell can't wall drumlax (turbodrum) for ever, but drumlax can't go through it easily either (broat's part 2 log proves that); Charizard/Tenta/Marowak etc etc have the potential to beat stalls, but need some things to happen before (weaken suicune/skarm, para starmie/electrics or whatever).
 

Jorgen

World's Strongest Fairy
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
#44
Honestly, I think the distinction between "stall" and "offense" is kind of misleading, like they're two discrete playstyles as opposed to being points on a continuous spectrum. There's pokemon that serve almost entirely to neutralize things: skarmory, starmie, and STcune are among these. Then, there's the pure offensive mons: Marowak, Machamp, and Jolteon are among those. Most pokemon are somewhere in between. Now, the distinction between "stall" and "offense" is really just the team's ratio of focus on neutralizing to focus on wallbreaking. STcune =/= "stall," as it's called, if Machamp, Marowak, and Drumlax are backing it up in other slots. There's a whole spectrum out there, and obviously, there needs to be some balance in a team. A pure "stall" is obviously going to fail since it's not breaking shit, while a pure "offense" is generally going to fail because it doesn't break shit fast enough to warrant its total disregard for defense.

But, in response to LKdrum and the growtheons, yes, they make stalling less reliable, and thus cause a shift toward offense and away from defense (whether people would have done this without these posts is dubious, but it might have happened, just a lot slower). But they're not as good as you're hyping them up, nor are they so devastating that they ruin any chance of slowing down the game with a "pure neutralizer" like Skarm. People are (were? idk, the latest stats are elusive) avoiding Skarm more than they ought likely because of the "Borat said so" effect, rather than some sort of "hopelessness" factor.
 
#45
Just wanted to point out that stalls are unreliable. Not defending these worthless stall teams with 0 offense at all, which just loses to anything decent offensively sooner or later, or just foces a draw after 2000 turns. But these stall focused teams with some sort of offense from spikes toxic roar to drumlax/drumzard/tenta/drumfable/marowak/machamp/p-trap/etc are just too unexistent now. In the past, in battles between these teams you used your defense to resist the more time the better, so that you have more time to break your opponent's defenses, right? But I think that know, people prefer to go full offense, that, although gives you less time to break your opponent, provides a much quicker offense, and apparently this is better vs good players (number of noobs is much smaller now as gsc is not newer gen).

Not wanted to say lklax, vap or espy are too good or broken either (though i consider lkdrumlax broken), just saying that it's another Snorlax/Marowak/Machamp/Gengar/Eggy/Charizard/Nidoking/etc you have to consider especially when trying to stall.
 
#46
Well structured offensive teams will have a good chance to beat stalls but will also get raped by other offensive teams that just happen to matchup well.

Offensive teams in general tend to be really vulnerable to snorlax. Stalls tend to rely on (at the minimum) Snorlax for offense. This means stalls will always have a chance.

Stalls are much more consistent because they have a chance to beat every team. It's not a given at all that an offensive team will break a stall faster than the stall can get lax set up. In addition, offensive teams can run into nightmare matchups like, say, a cursetalk heracross and it's gfg from the get go.

Offensive teams have proven themselves very viable but ultimately they will provide less consistency imo as they are more vulnerable to getting raped by certain matchups.

Couple other random thoughts:

Pursuit + LKDrum is not that amazing. On paper it looks like bread and butter but in practice it just doesn't work out as well. Plus, ghosts are not the only way to keep LK drumlax under control. Skarm + TTar/Rhydon is a very common combo on stalls.

If a Nidoking sleeps a non-ST suicune, Miltank becomes a pretty solid counter. If an Eggy sleeps a non-ST suicune, Skarm/TTar become solid counters. Once these pokemon lose their sleep threat they are much much less dangerous.
 
#47
The problem is imo that nowadays offensive teams can usually beat stalls more quickly than vice versa through drumlax spieksroar whatever, and without having to be offensive teams strictly made for stalls; it's just that stalls need a team of 8-9 to have a chance to wall everything for enough time imo. There's always some things (some things + lkdrumlax) that breaks stall in a very small number of turns, depending what the stall focused on countering imo.

Drumlax + Bell destroys Skarm + TTar/Rhydon ; Drumlax + LK destroys Skarm + Bell. So LKDrumlax with beller destroys stalls imo (nobody uses Skarm+Miltank+ttar right?.
Miltank's not so safe counter though; Ice Beam freeze. And I personally like to run HPFire + Giga on eggy unless im substunseed.