Gen 2 A Look into the Celebi era - GSC RMT

[Destiny Warrior]

This was a team I made to test out Celebi in GSC. My results weren't very conclusive in the end, because my matches were dominated by my 2 Cursers, and Celebi itself saw very little action. There are a few problems witht his team, which I shall mention later. I'd like to take this step by step, so here we go:-

Team Building Process
I was really curious to see why Celebi was banned, and how exactly it was a staller, so it was kind of natural for me to choose it first?

Next, I checked out threats to Celebi. Heracross and CurseLax star among them. Drumlax too, but what doesn't Drumlax threaten? Skarmory made it in next, as my physically defensive Pokemon and also my Curse Pokemon stopper since I couldn't fit Perish Song onto Celebi(4mss fml)

Next, I needed a pair of tanks who can check most non-setup sweepers. I put in ST Suicune + ST Raikou for this purpose.

Now, I have a solid defensive core. I needed a good lead, and figured I could use a CurseLax there. Besides, Celebi had Heal Bell, so I could run Curse + Lovely Kiss and still get away with it.

Finally, I looked through my team's weaknesses: JoltWak and Growth Vaporeon. I figured Raikou could possibly take on Vaporeon(its still very iffy) , so I slotted in Starmie to Spin away annoying Spikes since most of my team is grounded, and because JoltWak wasn't very common. I fully admit I have no idea what would be best in this slot.

Now to the main team.

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
- Lovely Kiss
- Rest
- Belly Drum
- Body Slam

This is so good. Teams which don't have a Skarmory have a lot of trouble with this. Lovely Kiss means I can choose exactly what to disable on my opponent's team, and I often get very good targets for it. CurseRest is self-explanatory, and Body Slam to fish for paralysis and also because I don't need Double-Edge's power. This lures out ghosts satisfactorily, so I can go to Skarmory/Suicune on Misdreavus and Raikou on Gengar.

EDIT: Changed to DrumRest to provide some offense to this team.

Celebi @ Leftovers
- Psychic
- Heal Bell
- Leech Seed
- Recover

This is the keystone of my team. It is significantly limited by the lack of Spikes, which I'm not sure if I should be running(need help there!). Leech Seed helps the team as a whole, and in tough situations, tides me over in stall wars. Recover is self-explanatory, and Heal Bell helps Snorlax. Psychic hits Machamp, means I can actually do some damage in a pinch, and lets me hit any Gengar that try to stay in and Ice Punch. Gengar in general is annoying to this team with access to Explosion and Perish Song.

Skarmory (M) @ Leftovers
- Rest
- Sleep Talk / Whirlwind
- Curse
- Drill Peck

This bird once killed 3 Pokemon a team at a stretch. I'm honestly amazed by how good CurseResTalk Skarm(can I call it CroMory :P) is, and it stops so many physical threats. I decided to go with Curse instead of WHirlwind because I lack Spikes, and jeez, this thing does so much. It can go toe to toe with CurseLax, and either win or leave it deprived of a lot of PP.

EDIT: It was brought up on IRC that I could use a phazer, so Skarmory now has Whirlwind slashed with Sleep talk. Both are equally viable options, and it really comes down to what you prefer.

Raikou @ Leftovers
- Thunderbolt
- Rest
- Roar
- Hidden Power [Water]

Teams up with Suicune in a mini-core to beat down mixsweepers. I didn't go with HP Ice because I found Exeggutor was really uncommon, and didn't feel the other targets like Dragonite particularly deserved my attention. On the other hand, HP Water lets me hit Ground-types while also punishing Rhydon and Golem more severely, something I like.

Suicune @ Leftovers
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Surf
- Ice Beam

Suicune is what I use for taking on Dragonite and other Mixsweepers Raikou doesn't cover. Surf + Ice Beam gets decent neutral coverage, and Raikou already deals with Water-types, so that's all nice and dandy.

Cloyster @ Leftovers
- Rapid Spin
- Rest
- Surf
- Spikes

My Spiker. This ensures my team isn't mere bait for stall wars, and hinders switching around. While I do have a shortage of phazers, I feel that Celebi should be able to force switches with Leech Seed, to cover for having fewer phazers than normal.

Threats

JoltWak: I haven't encountered any JoltWak teams, but if it gets through to Wak, its gg. As far as I can see, JoltWak can beat this team easily, something I'm not very comfortable with. My only semi-reliable checks are Skarmory to take on Marowak(Maro can SD and break me down pretty fast afaik), and Raikou for Jolteon(can easily BP out). I'd really like help with this.

Drumlax: Obviously.

LK Nidoking: Generally leads are dealt with by Snorlax, but midgame it can give me issues.

Perish Sleep Trapping Misdreavus: Another issue, can come in on Snorlax and get free kills again and again.

Rate away guys, I'd appreciate criticism and help on this team!

 

[Crystal_]

Thunder p-trappers eat your team, you should add, Roar on Raikou. And Hp Ice is better for Raikou if you are not spiking imo.

I'd rather use Drumlax to add some offense to the team if you don't want most of your battles to end in a 400 turn stall war. And, without it, you are chanceless against other stall teams with drumlax or some other sort of offense, which will beat you sooner or later, since you do nothing to them. However, ill use EQ imo, or you are not going to sweep anything if your opponent has a ghost type.

I think Leech Seed Celebi can stall out Vap by switching to Suicune / Starmie with seed support, right?

Celebi just makes stalls more solid and offensive teams worse imo.

BTW, i'll drop Starmie for Cloy since I don't really think you need it for machamp, specially if you have spikes. Or even add something like Pursuit, Crunch, Rest, whatever Ttar to allow Snorlax to run LKDrum, at it will really be useful to cover your Curse/LK+Fire Blast Snorlax weakness. Plus, it would be good for Celebi I guess. Anyway, I don't think you will convince anyone to return Celebi to OU though.

 

[Jorgen]

Team seems to follow the "GSC = Stall" stereotype and, as such, is nothing but defense with no path to victory. This just delays the inevitable in high-level matches, although the team will probably get a lot of wins against people without a clue. It needs spikes, Drumlax, anything that gives you the ability to impose your will.

GSC Celebi is a topic that never dies; it's not a loud topic, but it's an eternal mist that constantly shrouds GSC discussion. And it makes sense that it doesn't die, since Celebi is by no means overpowered. However, the justification for its ban isn't that it's too strong for standard, it's that it makes standard a nebulously-defined "less good" game, which is really the core reason you ban anything anyway.

You're not really going to be able to get much of a feel for Celebi's impact on the game by playing a few matches with it on your team; it's a feel that's really only remembered by the vets that experienced it in the days of old, and most of them do not seem very receptive to letting Celebi back in. It's already been used in the past, and deemed unhealthy by most legit players that bother to be vocal about it; this can of worms really need not be opened again.

 

[Destiny Warrior]

This team wasn't to convince people to return it to OU, I did state my results were inconclusive as my cursers won me most of my matches.

Like I said Starmie was basically a "filler", and I'm really happy to replace it. I guess I'll change my lead to LK Drumlax, to maintain the pressure on my opponent, and for some much-needed offense, which I did feel in a few matches.

How well would Clotser with Spikes/Rapid Spin/Surf/Explosion work for this team?

 

[gene]

snorlax without rest makes no sense on a defensive team.

cloyster can't use both spin and explosion. you definitely benefit from spikes though.

 

[Crystal_]

Offensive Cloyster has Explosion and Ice Beam/Toxic/Icy Wind/Clamp/Reflect; Defensive Cloyster has Rest and Spin (apart from Surf and Spikes)
If you run LKDrumLax without a pursiter though, you won't do anything if there's a ghost type.

 

[Jorgen]

Reiterating that you still want Rest on Lax. Longevity is a priority over hitting ghosts with EQ, since a one-and-done kind of offense is silly on a stall like this. And Pursuit isn't absolutely necessary with mono-attack Snorlax; it's helpful, but ghosts can be worn down easily enough with spikes abuse and hits on the switch.

 

[Destiny Warrior]

I've looked into things a bit more, and found that teams built around Baton Passing really seem to give me a problem, but then again, defensive teams always have problems with BP teams(not full-blown ones like ADV, but extensions of JoltWak).

I'm swapping Starmie for Cloyster, and am reverting Snorlax to its original spread, since now I do get some offensive presence. I'm also dropping Sleep Talk on Suicune for Roar, so as to gain more momentum out of Spikes.

 

[Crystal_]

You lose to BP-ers because of no Roar Raikou. And to Thunder p-trappers as well. And Roarkou works really well with spikes.

And, uhm, I was supporing Rest in Drumlax, right...?

 

[Destiny Warrior]

RoarKou, knew I forgot something.

With RestDrum, I guess I could even more reliably lure out ghosts, making change.