1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

A short guide on how to create the Base Stats of a Pokemon Evolution

Discussion in 'Create-A-Pokémon Project' started by X-Act, Jan 25, 2009.

  1. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2006
    Messages:
    4,675
    The following is a short guide on how to write the Base Stats of a Pokemon evolution. I decided to post it as it is independent of any process the EVO project would have.

    ---------------------------------------------------------

    Rules to evolve a Pokemon

    The following are the rules that an evolution to an existing Pokemon must adhere to:
    1. The Base Stat Total of the evolution cannot exceed 540. The only exception to this rule is when the Pokemon to be evolved already has a Base Stat Total that is greater than 540. In that case, the Base Stat Total of the evolution cannot exceed 555.
    2. Each base stat of the evolution except for Speed must be at least equal to the corresponding stat of its immediate pre-evo.
    3. The Base Stat Total of the evolution must be at least equal to the Base Stat Total of its immediate pre-evo.
    4. The evolution must not have the same six base stats as its immediate pre-evo.
    Notice that the above never mention the bias of the Pokemon (whether it is offensive/defensive or whether it is physical/special), which could imply that these can change. In fact, they can change.

    Here are some examples:
    1. Magneton's Base Stats are 50/60/95/120/70/70. It has an ODB of 20.5 (offensive) and a PSB of -18.4 (special). The Base Stats of its evolution, Magnezone, are 70/70/115/130/90/60. It has an ODB of 1.7 (balanced) and a PSB of -15.9 (special). So Magnezone turned from offensive to equally offensive and defensive when it evolved.
    2. Electabuzz's Base Stats are 65/83/57/95/85/105. It has an ODB of 20.4 (offensive) and a PSB of -24.9 (special). Electivire's Base Stats are 75/123/67/95/85/95. It has an ODB of 27.5 (offensive) and a PSB of 3.8 (balanced). So Electivire turned from special-based to equally physical and special when it evolved.
    3. Nosepass's Base Stats are 30/45/135/45/90/30. It has an ODB of -40.2 (defensive) and a PSB of 19.2 (physical). Probopass' Base Stats are 60/55/145/75/150/40. It has an ODB of -38.6 (defensive) and a PSB of -13.2 (special). So Probopass turned from being physical-based to being special-based when it evolved.
    4. Piloswine's Base Stats are 100/100/80/60/60/50. It has an ODB of -8.4 (slightly defensive) and a PSB of 33.1 (physical). Mamoswine's Base Stats are 110/130/80/70/60/80. It has an ODB of 14.5 (offensive) and a PSB of 43.4 (physical). So Mamoswine turned from being slightly defensive to offensive when it evolved.
    5. 5) Seadra's Base Stats are 55/65/95/95/45/85. It has an ODB of 12.4 (offensive) and a PSB of 13.5 (physical). Kingdra's Base Stats are 75/95/95/95/95/85. It has an ODB of 4.4 (equally offensive and defensive) and a PSB of 0.0 (equally physical and special). So Kingdra turned from being offensive and physical to being balanced when it evolved.
    The fact that 5 examples could be produced (there are even more) where the offensive/defensive bias and the physical/special bias were changed during evolution clearly shows that they are not a factor to consider when writing an evolution's Base Stats. Also note that all of the examples above are of Pokemon that evolved in later generations than their pre-evos. This gives us much more freedom to provide the base stats for our new evolution Pokemon.


    An example Evolution

    In the following example, we evolve Chimecho in four different ways.

    Chimecho's Base Stats are 65/50/70/95/80/65. Its BST is 425.

    Evolution 1: 75/70/90/115/100/75.
    HP: +10, Atk: +20, Def: +20, SpA: +20, SpD: +20, Spe: +10. BST: 525.

    Evolution 2: 65/60/80/125/125/70.
    HP: +-0, Atk: +10, Def: +10, SpA: +30, SpD: +45, Spe: +5. BST: 525.

    Evolution 3: 80/85/95/100/85/80.
    HP: +15, Atk: +35, Def: +25, SpA: +5, SpD: +5, Spe: +15. BST: 525.

    Evolution 4: 85/90/105/105/90/50.
    HP: +20, Atk: +40, Def: +35, SpA: +10, SpD: +10, Spe: -15. BST: 525.

    All of the above Base Stats follow the four rules mentioned at the start of the previous section, and hence they would all be allowed.
  2. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    7,544
    I take slight issue in one important factor: proportionality.

    Generally speaking, A pokemon's evolutionary stats excluding HP remain mostly proportional to their pre-evolution.

    [The reason HP is exlcuded is because while HP may be higher than several stats in pre-evolved forms, in fully evolved pokemon several stats tend to surpass HP.]

    Three of five pokemon presented are exceptions to this rule. Magnezone and Mamoswine are not.

    Example:


    Dusclops -> Dusknoir

    40/70/130/60/130/25

    45/100/135/65/135/45.

    +5/+30/+5/+5/+5/+20.

    Dusknoir is much more offensive than Dusclops, but its focus on being a generic wall with a physical orientation did not change.

    Example:

    Tangela -> Tangrowth

    65/55/115/100/40/60

    100/100/125/110/50/50

    +35/45/+10/+10/+10/-10

    Tangrowth's offenses certainly became more balanced, but SA still leads slightly, and Defense is still slightly higher than SA.

    So while BSR's can change in radical ways, most evolutions, even radical ones like Tangela -> Tangrowth, still have the same overall trends in stats.

    Please note that I'm talking about proportionality here overall, not stat by stat. Dusknoir clearly has a proportion of offensive stats that greatly favors Attack over SA. However, it's Defenses are still higher than both by a substantial margin.
  3. Atlas

    Atlas I'm the Mary!
    is a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 19, 2005
    Messages:
    3,496
    raise this to 555, to match up with arcanines bst

    there aresome other instances,
    metapod gets less attack from caterpie, butterfree gets less defence from metapod (similar outcomes are seen in beedrill/kakuna, beautifly/wurmble)
    nuzleaf gets less defence from seedot
    ninjask/shedinja have less defence than nincada
    vibrava has less attack than trapinch

    so basically for the most part if there is a shelled (etc) pokemon other stats may change.forretress, wormadams, even torkoal potentially could evolutions with weaker base stats.
  4. hydrolphin

    hydrolphin

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2008
    Messages:
    317
    Simlarly to Atlas' post, a direct example of a pokemon being "upgraded" between generations where a stat goes down is Porygon2 to Porygon-Z, where Z loses 20 points in both defenses. Thay rule is generally true, but we shouldn't hold to it. This could be used in a Hariyama evo for example. We could easily give make it more bulky, while toning down the attack a bit to keep it from getting broken.
  5. DougJustDoug

    DougJustDoug Knows the great enthusiasms
    is a member of the Site Staffis an Artistis a Programmeris a CAP Contributoris an Administratoris a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    CAP Leader

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Messages:
    3,060
    Just posting to say I really like the general concept of the limitations proposed in the OP, and I like the general tenor of the discussion that has started here. I agree that this discussion is separate from the EVO process; let's keep it that way, please. This thread will be very useful if we can arrive at some BST guidelines that can be used for any EVO process that we develop.

    Thanks for starting this, X-Act!
  6. Naxte

    Naxte

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2008
    Messages:
    1,320
    Arcanine (555), Ttar, Salamance, Dragonite, Metagross and Garchomp (all 600) all are over that (and so is Slaking at 670, but Truant neutralizes its massive BST). So like Atlas said, the BST should normally not exceed 555 in most cases. However, if we're evolving a dragon, or Pokemon similar to Pupitar or Metang, then then the option of having a BST of up to 600 should be there.

    The exception to the 600 BST dragon rule seems to be when the Pokemon gains the dragon type through evolution instead of beginning with it (Seadra --> Kingdra, Trapinch --> Vibrava). So if we were going to evolve say Altaria, since Altaria's first form didn't have the dragon type, it would be stuck at 555 BST as it's cap.

    Thus, I don't believe there are any Pokemon that would qualify for BST 600 evolutions right now, but it is something to keep in mind for when new Pokemon games are released.
  7. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    7,544
    It isn't actually being "shelled" per se, but rather a pokemon that evolves by the pokemon equivalent of metamorphosis: altering appearance drastically on the way to the next evolution.

    This includes the starter bugs and Nincada, but also Trapinch and Shelgon. Pupitar, interestingly enough, does not follow this trend, but Tyranitar itself has large defenses so it may be the exception.
  8. Atlas

    Atlas I'm the Mary!
    is a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 19, 2005
    Messages:
    3,496
    right, but i couldnt think of the word. although shelled pokemon could possibly be in the same habit. say if torkoal evolved into something like blastoise, which would leave him more exposed, decreasing his defence and maybe raising his attack.
  9. ferron

    ferron

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2008
    Messages:
    542
    im not so sure we should want to raise the bar over 545 just yet. think about some of the pokes in UU at the moment and how they would be with that much of a bonus.

    hypno, the special tank of UU, has a BST of only 483.
    scyther, one of the best sweepers in UU, has a BST of 500
    altaria, which is a popular sweeper, statis inflicter and tank, has a BST of 490.
    bibarel, that is already sometimes used in OU, has a mere 410
    shuckle, no intro needed here, has 505

    and the list goes on from there. there are some pokes that might not even need to be boost to 545 to become OU viable, so lets just stay with the 545 parameters for now. we can always raise it later if we don't think it will be enough.

    edit @x-act: forgot to thank you for making this thread, thus helping to make the whole process easier for later on.
  10. Naxte

    Naxte

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2008
    Messages:
    1,320
    Eh, we've created CAPs with a BST of 555 (Argo and Fidgit) and one with 550 (Syclant) fine, so I think going with the BST limit of 555 for EVO would also be fine. Either way, the limit is arbritary, as there is only one evolution with a BST of 545 (Togekiss) and one with 555 (Arcanine). Going with the higher one would be more accurate though and help us learn more about what's too much for standard.

    As for your examples, yes, they are good in UU, but there's a reason why they are mostly used there and not in OU; they're just not good enough or are outclassed. Plus, while Pokemon like them and Revenankh work well even with a low BST, there are other Pokemn that could really end up needing those points to be useful.

    Thus, I'd rather go with the 555 BST limit, but expcet people to use common sense and be very cautious with the spread and BST, just like in CAP. If something is already fairly good, don't increase its stats too much, and only give it a high total if that's what is needed to stay consistent with its stat distribution and biases, and for it to be beneficial to the metagame without being broken. This shouldn't really be too much to ask for, since most people who work on creating good stat spreads, full of damage calcs and such, already keep that stuff in mind anyway (which is why the damage calcs are done and included as support for a stat-spread; to show that the creator has worked it out and made sure that it should be good in the current metagame, while still leaving ways for it to be handled worked into it). And even if we're wrong, we can revise it and tone it down, which I don't believe is something that we'd really end up bothering to do if it ends up being underwhelming rather than overwhelming.
  11. Mario With Lasers

    Mario With Lasers Self-proclaimed DEAD king
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2006
    Messages:
    7,191
    However, Tyranitar's first form (Larvitar) has 300 BST, and its second forrm (Pupitar) has 420. So, unless we find a pokémon line with the first stage having 300 and the second having 420, we can't evolve anything to 600 BST.
  12. Naxte

    Naxte

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2008
    Messages:
    1,320
    True, as I said, it's not really relevant right now; I was just pointing that out. Although it probably never should really matter in their case, I suppose.
  13. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2006
    Messages:
    4,675
    Okay, some explanation.

    First and foremost: we are evolving an already-existing Pokemon. So forget about Sandslash, Exeggutor, Butterfree, Azumarill, etc.'s stats. Rather, look at Crobat's, Kingdra's, Tangrowth's, Magmortar's, etc. stats. That is, look at those Pokemon that evolved in a later generation than its pre-evo. If you look at them, Togekiss gets 545 BST, and none of the others exceeds it.

    Secondly, Deck Knight, you're wrong. :( I presented those 5 examples on purpose, and you admit that 3 out of 5 are exceptions to your rule. It's one thing to have only one exception, but at least 3? That means it's not an exception. It's not even a rule. To be completely honest, at first I thought that is supposed to be true too, but when I saw what Gamefreak did, I stopped believing it. I'll give you a further example: Yanma's stats are 65/65/45/75/45/95; Yanmega's are 86/76/86/116/56/95. Clearly the stats are not proportional: it suddenly has more defense than it has attack, while Yanma has more attack than defense. So, yeah, those are at least 4 exceptions to your rule... and those are too many exceptions for your rule to even be considered a rule.

    Now, about Porygon-Z. I was aware that Porygon-Z is the only final stage Pokemon evolution of ALL that has base stats other than speed that are lower than those of its immediate pre-evo before typing this short guide. And since it is the ONLY exception to the rule, I thought not to mention it. In fact, I'm sure Porygon-Z was made as Porygon2's evolution, rather than Porygon's alternate evo, only because it has a higher BST than Porygon2. If that weren't the case, I'm sure it would have been made as Porygon's alternate evo, as its stats would fit better as being Porygon's alternate evo rather than Porygon2's evo.
  14. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    7,544
    Indeed. But it is also true than Yanmega's Attack and Defense are both less than it's Special Attack, and both are equal to or greater than it's Special Defense, just as in Yanma. You see the same switch in Atk/Def between Rhyhorn and Rhydon. Rhyhorn having 85 Atk/95 Def and Rhydon having 130 Atk/120 Def.

    So I suppose it's a wash, and the rule is too vague to be useful. Point taken.

    Oh yeah, and Shelgon technically has more Base Defense than Salamence, but Intimidate mitigates that, I suppose =).
  15. Not Scicky

    Not Scicky

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,310
    "The Base Stat Total of the evolution cannot exceed 545."

    What about if we tried to evolve Arcanine, whos BST is already 555 =/

    I mean, people have already said that the first post should be changed to 555, but then if we evolved Arcanine, what would we do, mix his stats around?
  16. Naxte

    Naxte

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2008
    Messages:
    1,320
    Yeah, that was also something that I was thinking about; Arcanine is UU, so it would be eligible for an evolution. But, we wouldn't be able to evolve it with the current set of rules, due to the first three rules. Because of it, moving the BST limit up to 600 might not be too bad, as it's the best option really, allowing for it to evolve and any other such future exceptions that Game Freak decides to make (as they love to do, probably in an attempt to keep things fresh and avoid making exactly the same things).

    And Togekiss is just as much a break in the trend as Arcanine is. Togekiss might have come out later, but it still breaks the more general trend of evolutions usually not having more than 540 BST; it's the first one to have 545 and the only Pokemon period that does. Thus, I'd really rather go for at least for 555, if not 600 to allow for an Arcanine evo and possible future-dragon evos, especially since Game Freak doesn't really seem to want to stick to any particular set of rules or standards for BST and such anyway. If we're going to make such a restriction based on the outliers, let's at least do it in a way that allows for more freedom, especially since in our own experience we can create a Pokemon with such a BST without it winding up broken.
  17. ferron

    ferron

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2008
    Messages:
    542
    we don't know the stipulations on our choices yet. it could end up that no poke that has already had a special evo (stone, move, happiness, location and trade) would be eligible to choose. and would we really want to up the BST to more than 555 just because of a single poke?
  18. Naxte

    Naxte

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2008
    Messages:
    1,320
    Eh, true. The Arcanine bit was admittedly just me being a bit bugged by putting the limit at 545 just because of one Pokemon, and then extending that logic to apply to Arcanine's (another outlier's) case, which also happens to work because we do have precedent for base 600 evolutions. But, Arcanine is an exception and it's problems are more things like a not-so-great movepool and being SR weak, and not actually haivng poor stats, resulting in it being outclassed, so it really isn't a good choice to be considered for an EVO anyway.

    But I do still feel that 555 should be the upper limit; it's worked fine in CAP projects, and we do have precedent for it in Arcanine, so it shouldn't really be different in EVO. The "545 BST is the highest that an evoltuon from a different generation from the pre-evolved form has" just seems like an arbritary add-on to me. Why does it really matter if the evolutions occured between generations or not? We're still playing in the 4th gen metagame, and not creating a new generation, so that doesn't really seem signifcant to me. I really doubt GF considers what generation a Pokemon was in when figuring out the BST of its evolution, so I don't see why we should either. The highest BST that GF has been willing to give a Pokemon that isn't a "pseudo-legendary" or special case like Slaking is 555, so I feel we should go with that, especially since such a limit hasn't been a problem for CAP.
  19. ferron

    ferron

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2008
    Messages:
    542
    smeagle is the only poke to learn sketch. sableye is the only poke to have stall. bibarel is the only poke to have simple. etc.
    you know what all those have in common? that they are all single examples or exceptions to the rule. we cannot define our process by citing single examples constantly.
    so i do not see any precedent in arcanine, or even togekiss.

    edit- didn't realize that numel had it, since i don't look at NFE.
  20. Atlas

    Atlas I'm the Mary!
    is a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 19, 2005
    Messages:
    3,496
    actually numel also has simple
  21. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2006
    Messages:
    4,675
    Jesus, would we REALLY evolve a Pokemon that has 555 BST? Goodness gracious me.

    By the way, Scizor has the same BST as Scyther. And actually, according to my BSR, Scizor has worse stats than Scyther. And yet Scizor is obviously better than Scyther.

    My point is: base stats aren't everything.
  22. Objection

    Objection

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2008
    Messages:
    5,695
    So theoretically, if we have a BST limit of 555, we can still evolve Arcanine, but simply by rearranging the base stats a little and expanding on his movepool and such.
  23. Mekkah

    Mekkah
    is a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    14,036
    There's also obviously the exception of Shedinja, who has far less HP than Nincada. But I believe the last process thread already said that we are not doing any special evolutions like Shedinja, and rightfully so, to stick with keeping it simple and consistent as much as possible.
  24. X-Act

    X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2006
    Messages:
    4,675
    Well, that's fine by me. I'll increase the allowed BST to 555.
  25. Not Scicky

    Not Scicky

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,310
    Typing could also be changed if the community sees fit =/

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)