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Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by Manitary, Apr 12, 2013.

  1. Manitary

    Manitary

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    276
    Hi all, I'm here to submit my doubles team. It's pretty simple, it was created by just choosing some good pokemon and I didn't think it could get so high! (right now it's #22 with a ~4:1 win/loss ratio and 200 games played)
    But not all that glitters is gold, and that's why I'm asking for a rate: it's true that I got good results with this team, but the problem is that the ladder is flooded by gimmick team or just crap team or ragequitting people (taunt the trick room setter = resign)...I don't usually find good players but when I do I lose, so I think there's much room for improvement.

    Ok, let's stop talking and focus on the team.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Quick view on teambuilding (open)
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Prankster Taunt/Tailwind is something I love and flinch-hax/-2 spdef is good too, so I started with these two
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Infernape provides Fake Out and Stealth Rock (breaks Sashes, helps in getting OHKOs, hinder flying types and Volcarona), plus good attacking stats to dish out some damage
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Stealth Rock isn't common, and Quiver Dance+Heat Wave is quite strong, Shaymin-S helps getting rid of Water attackers
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Specs Water Spout hurts a lot with max SAtk, some Spd EVs to outspeed base 125+ under Tailwind and the remaining in bulk
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Rage Powder is good, and helps both Jelli keeping high health and Volc settings up QD. Also is good to redirect priority or prankster status
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Togekiss has superior bulk and many more support moves
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Jelli is good but difficult to use and often disappointing, I saw the post about Deoxys-A and I wanted to try this thing
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Trick Room is deadly, so if it gets up I need something to "counter" it. Min Speed Amoongus is truly slow, and so has fast Spore and After You to get kills


    [​IMG]
    Deoxys-Attack @ Focus Sash [​IMG]
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Rash Nature (+SAtk,-SDef)
    - Psycho Boost
    - Ice Beam
    - Superpower
    - Protect

    This mon is amazing, but suffers from 4MSS! Psycho Boost is the mandatory STAB, I also picked Ice Beam to help the team with dragons since many moves are NVE, especially Dragonite. Unfortunately it fails the OHKO on Latias
    Offensive Dragonite: 252+ SpA Deoxys-A Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 90.12-106.17% -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
    Multiscale broken: 252+ SpA Deoxys-A Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragonite: 108.8-128.49% -- guaranteed OHKO
    Offensive Latios: 252+ SpA Deoxys-A Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 89.4-105.29% -- 7.5% chance to OHKO
    Offensive Latias: 252+ SpA Deoxys-A Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 77.07-91.02% -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Defensive Latias: 252+ SpA Deoxys-A Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 63.73-75.27% -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Superpower is mostly for Dark-types in general (notably bulky TTar since they can survive Ape's CC) and Heatran, or when at -2 it's the best move to get this damage that I really need.
    Thunderbolt/Dark Pulse/Energy Ball are also nice moves but bulky Psychic are 2HKOed at best, I've Grass/Ice coverage with Shaymin-S/Volcarona/Ice Beam, and Psycho Boost is often the best choice.
    Extremespeed is really nice because of +2 priority to finish sashed or low health mons (and avoid sucker punches!) but there aren't enough moveslots, sadly!
    Protect and Focus Sash are a must have because of it's frailty, they help getting a KO surviving a priority, avoiding status and spread moves.

    [​IMG]
    Amoonguss @ Sitrus Berry [​IMG]
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SDef
    Sassy Nature (+SDef,-Spd)
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spd
    - Spore
    - Giga Drain
    - Rage Powder
    - After You

    Although Effect Spore can be a nice gimmick, I think Regenerator is a superior ability not only for the health regeneration but also because you may not want that sleep activating an unwanted sleep clause, or paralysis going before the Spore.

    The spread is because of the heavy presence of Heat Wave/Blizzard (Rock Slide and EQ are neutral) and it's often targeted by Ice Beams/Flamethrowers/Psychics. On the other side, I just discovered that a spread of 252/224+ is the minimum required to 100% survive a banded Kyurem-B Outrage.
    Really, I don't know what EV spread use to get the most utility so any suggestion is really appreciated!

    Ragepowder is kinda self-explanatory, and the main reason to use Amoongus: it redirects priority against Deo-A (ESpeed, Sucker Punches, anything), Shaymin-S (when Yache Berry is consumed) and sashed Ape; but also status from prankster mons!
    Only 7 pokes can learn Spore and it's an incredible move, so there's no reason to not use it.

    I used to have a Togekiss because it has Follow Me, slightly superior bulk (at least 85/95/115 seems better to me than 114/70/80) and many utility moves: Tailwind, Screens, Thunder Wave, Heal Bell, Helping Hand, Roost (better than Synthesis), Air Slash (to avoid Taunt-Struggle and get paraflinch hax) and possibly ESpeed or Encore.
    But at the end I replaced it back with Amoonguss, mostly because the whole team is Trick Room weak. 20 base speed ties only with Ferrothorn and Escavalier and is beaten only by Shuckle, so with minimum speed it's basically the faster pokemon under TR (bar strange Iron Ball sets or similar stuff).
    This allows it to go first with Spore or use a fast After You to OHKO that Rhyperior with Seed Flare, or finish that damaged Reuniclus.

    Giga Drain is mostly to not Struggle when Taunted, but don't understimate its utility!
    0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 54.46-64.78% -- guaranteed 2HKO
    (and I'm pretty sure nobody runs such spread)
    0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rindo Berry Gastrodon: 39.43-46.47% -- a 2HKO basically
    Also, it helps finishing sashed mons, which is nice too.

    [​IMG]
    Infernape @ Focus Sash [​IMG]
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 116 Atk / 142 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd,-SDef)
    - Fake Out
    - Taunt
    - Overheat
    - Close Combat

    The EV spread is easily explained:
    116 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 100.61-119.13% -- guaranteed OHKO
    116 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 326-386 (84.45 - 100%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
    116 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 408-480 (100.99 - 118.81%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Also, 252+ Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chople Berry Tyranitar: 338-402 (83.66 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    so there's no reason (I think lol) to run more Atk EVs.

    Overheat is to get a last damage burst before switching out or fainting, also it helps with Steel/Bug and Ferrothorn (overkilled under rain if not invested in bulk). With Blaze activated it's pretty powerful, especially in sun, but also under rain it does a good chunck of damage if not resisted:
    142 SpA Blaze Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 96.59 - 115.9% -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
    142 SpA Blaze Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Reuniclus: 71.69-84.43% -- guaranteed 2HKO
    142 SpA Blaze Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales in sun: 57.14 - 67.42% -- guaranteed 2HKO
    142 SpA Blaze Infernape Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 129.38-152.29% -- guaranteed OHKO
    142 SpA Blaze Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 102.95-121.3% -- guaranteed OHKO

    Fake Out is self-explanatory. I used to run Stealth Rock to break sashes/multiscale but I switched to Taunt because I can't rely only on Tornadus to prevent Trick Room.

    [​IMG]
    Volcarona @ Fire Gem [​IMG]
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 8 HP / 248 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd,-Atk)
    - Quiver Dance
    - Giga Drain
    - Heat Wave
    - Protect

    Here there's no much to explain. Protect is needed to stall TR or let the partner kill/do something while surviving Rock Slide, Surf, w/e. QD is useful to get past bulky mons that can barely scratch Volcarona especially after a boost.

    Heat Wave is the spread move of choice, boosted by Fire Gem because sometimes I need that extra power and I don't have the time to QD.
    The last move is mostly to deal with Water- and Rock-types, but let it be walled by Dragons like Dragonite/Latias and bulky Psychics.

    Again, any suggestion about this is welcome

    [​IMG]
    Tornadus (M) @ Flying Gem [​IMG]
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd,-SAtk)
    - Taunt
    - Tailwind
    - Protect
    - Acrobatics

    Fast Taunt and Tailwind are the reason to use this, and it has a lot more offensive presence than Whimsicott. Protect is mostly to TR stall, scout and avoiding priorities.
    The last moveslot, reserved for an offensive move, screams for Acrobatics.
    Boosted with the gem, it OHKO offensive Ninetales and other stuff.
    Unfortunately, it needs a Jolly nature to speed tie with other Tornadus/Thundurus and this cause it to miss some important OHKOs, like
    252 Atk Flying Gem Tornadus Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 83.64-98.45% -- guaranteed 2HKO -- 50% chance to OHKO if Adamant
    252 Atk Flying Gem Tornadus Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 88.35-104.1% -- 25% chance to OHKO -- 81.25% chance to OHKO if Adamant
    252 Atk Flying Gem Tornadus Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Politoed: 312-367 (81.25 - 95.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- 31.25% chance to OHKO if Adamant
    Last but not the least, it lacks Superpower to get past Steel- and Rock-types


    [​IMG]
    Shaymin-Sky @ Yache Berry [​IMG]
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd,-Atk)
    - Air Slash
    - Earth Power
    - Seed Flare
    - Protect

    Cookie-cutter moveset, Tailwind and Leech Seed would be cool but Protect is fundamental.
    Timid is needed to avoid getting otusped by 111+ positive nature (notably Tornadus, Thundurus, Starmie, Tornadus-T, Weavile, other Shaymin-S), although Modest would be awesome for the extra power.
    Life Orb would be a great item...but fuk Ice Shard. It also helps against random Ice Beams, and sometimes not invested Ice Punches/Blizzards
    Here are some calcs to show that some pokes need heavy EV investment to seriously hurt through Yache Berry
    +1 252 SpA Gastrodon Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yache Berry Shaymin-S: 90.85-107.37% -- 43.75% chance to OHKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yache Berry Shaymin-S: 98.52 - 116.22% -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Shaymin-S: 190-226 (56.04 - 66.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Shaymin-S: 205-244 (60.47 - 71.97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (of course Ice Punch is a OHKO)

    Threats and starters (open)

    Acknowledged Threats:
    - Trick Room: I run double Taunt just to prevent it, and Amoonguss (with After You) to somewhat counter it. Once it's been set up it's really hard to survive. I usually lose at least 2 mons unless the opponent targets a protecting mon + use a weak spread move
    - Tailwind + Tyranitar, ScarfTerrakion and similar: if a Rock Slide user outspeed the whole team and Tornadus is down, it's pretty much a loss and there are little to no way to counter that (Tyranitar is tricky because of Sand breaking sashes)

    Usual start:
    - Trick Room teams: Infernape + Torandus. Taunt the TR setter and Fake Out the other (especially if it's a sweeper), switch out the one which risk the most and try to kill something with Deo-A/Shaymin-S. Be careful to have one Taunt user out everytime if possible. In rare cases if the TR setter is obvious I can try to take it out the first turn if possible (most of the time the team can tell you how much good is the opponent so you know when there's a chance to try this, I'm not joking)
    - Rain teams: usually Infernape + Tornadus. If it's Politoed + Ludicolo/Kingdra Fake Out + Acrobatics on the second (there are so few people running Fake Out on Ludicolo o.o), otherwise Fake Out the most threatening and set up Tailwind. If there's only one SSer it's possible to use Shaymin instead of Tornadus and kill Politoed the first turn
    - Sun teams: usually Infernape + Tornadus. Fake Out + Tailwind, then Acrobatics on Ninetales (most are offensive so they get KOed) and CC/Overheat the other. If there's a Shiftry start with Tornadus + Shaymin-S and double Protect, then Tailwind and switch out Shaymin to Infernape or Amoonguss (Shiftry will probably explode)
    - Sand teams: they usually run Protect on TTar so Fake Out the other and Tailwind, then CC and Acro on TTar to ensure the kill. If you get it, Shaymin-S or Volcarona can usually sweep depending on the opponent team
    - TerraCott, TerraZard, other Beat Up+Justified: if there's a Justified user always check if any of the enemey pokes learns Beat Up, though the most common are Whimsicott, Charizard, Weavile, Sneasel (for Inner Focus). TerraCott/Zard = Fake Out Whimsi/Zard to prevent Tailwind/Beat Up and set up your own, then CC Terrakion and Acrobatics on the other (usually sashes)
    Sneasel/Weavile: Fake Out Terrakion and set up Tailwind, then kill Terrrakion
    - Gimmick teams involving Shuckle, Spinda, Victini and similar stuff: Taunt
    - stupid teams with crap mons: Tailwind and sweep
    - generic team: Infernape + Tornadus, + Shaymin-S, + Deoxys-A if I need Tailwind, Seed Flare, raw power (if the opponent hasn't a clear priority user) respectively


    If you read all up to this point, thanks a lot! I accept critics of any type, so feel free to suggest movesets, spreads or even pokemon to change in order for the team to improve.

    P.S. I couldn't add any replay because actually I can't save them (probably because I need to access PS through port 80, idk)
  2. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,580
    Thanks for sharing your team, Manitary! Here are my thoughts.

    Infernape / Volcarona are quite redundant. Why not replace Infernape with Hitmontop? Hitmontop provides you with Intimidate support, Rock Slide resist, and Wide Guard support for Volcarona. It still learns Fake Out like Infernape, too. Seems like the perfect fit for this team.

    That said, I think your teams need more buffer against Rain - only Amoonguss doesn't mind switching into strong Rain-boosted Water moves and Thunder. I suggest Latios over Deoxys-A to solve this problem. Latios is an excellent mon to lead against Rain teams, without breaking your teams offensive pace (you still need to watch out for Swift Swimmer's coverage moves, though, which Amoonguss can Rage Powder). It also pairs very well with Shaymin-S and Volcarona, removing Dragon mons that neither of them can easily knock out. Volcarona and Shaymin-S in turn eliminate Steel-types and Tyranitar, respectively for Latios - it's a mutual relationship. Alternatively, you can try Scarf Kyurem-Black for a less Blizzard-weak option.

    Latios (open)
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Latios @ Dragon Gem
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    ~ Draco Meteor
    ~ Psyshock
    ~ Protect
    ~ Dragon Pulse / Substitute / Tailwind / Psych Up

    Lots of fourth options here. Dragon Pulse is great to minimize the dependence on Draco Meteor, thereby reducing the number of switches you have to make due to special falls. Substitute is always a good move to set up during predicted Protects. You can turn Latios into your second Tailwind user. Psych Up can be a bit tricky to use at first, but it lets Latios to remove its special falls after using Draco Meteor, not to mention copying QD boosts from Volcarona ;d

    As for Volcarona, I prefer Lum Berry rather than Fire Gem. Lum Berry is nice to cure stray Thunder Waves or Spores when Amoonguss isn't around. Also Bug Buzz over Giga Drain plz x_x. Bug Buzz already does a decent amount of damage to most Water-types, not to mention it dents CRESSELIA (dat phat duck).

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