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A Steel-Heavy Team

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by masterful, Aug 21, 2010.

  1. masterful

    masterful

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    I wanted to try out a choice scarf jirachi lead, as I'd heard good things about it, and I kinda built a team around it. This team uses quite a few steel types, which may be its downfall. please offer any suggestions to anything I missed that was major.

    Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Iron Head
    - Stealth Rock
    - Trick
    - Fire Punch
    My uber fast lead. Can 2HKO suicide leads like azelf and aerodactyl, and has a 60% chance of stopping them from setting up at all. Also could function as a revenge killer late game if I don't trick off choice scarf. Also can severely cripple any wall I manage to trick the choice scarf to after disabling their lead. I'm thinking about switching out fire pawnch for thunderpawnch, cuz I don't currently have an electric-type move to do really good damage to gyarados.

    Suicune @ Leftovers Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Surf
    My CM Suicune. Can mess up enemy Heatran who can otherwise really hurt my team. Has Rest so it can cure status conditions and restore damage. Can power up ridiculously at the sake of having more than one attack.



    Heatran (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Rash Nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Explosion
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    Can switch in on a Scizor counter for Flash-fire boost, and then use STAB plus boosted Fire Blast to tear through opposing team with choice scarf speed. He is very important, as he offsets one of my team's biggest weakness, fire types. However, he does compound on my teams weakness to ground, which is thankfully mitigated by the presence of Skarm and my next poke.

    Gengar (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 Spd / 252 SAtk
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Pain Split
    - Focus Blast
    - Shadow Ball
    Combos with Heatran and Scizor nicely, as it is immune to ground-type moves and fighting-type moves. Can set up on a pokemon locked into EQ and do heavy damage. I have psychic on there just to do good damage on Machamps I switch into, cause Machamp could be very annoying to this team.

    Skarmory (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Keen Eye
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Taunt
    - Toxic
    - Roost
    - Spikes
    My defensive wall. I opted out of speed evs for an uber-defensive physical wall. Can take any physical attack like a beast and toxic stall away. Of course, it can also set up spikes and whirlwind away pokemon like gyrados who could set up on jirachi locked into iron head or fire pawnch.

    Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Seismic Toss
    - Thunder Wave
    - Wish
    - Protect
    Once again, I have opted out of defense evs for a monstrous SpD stat. I have had good success with this, and since it walls special attackers so well, it can also perform as a cleric very effectively, replenishing the health of one of my pokes. If this spread is incredibly stupid, which it very well may be, PLEASE tell me why
  2. Treadshot A1

    Treadshot A1

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    I think that you have a weakness to Ground Types, and Earthquake/Power. Actually, to be more specific, a weakness to opposing Heatran (who, if not scarfed, can alternate between Earth Power and a Fire move to keep you guessing). It'll also walk right over Skarmory with special attacks. Not to mention your only major threat to Heatran is Gengar, or risking a Speed Tie with your own ScarfTran. Blissey does nothing if Heatran decides to explode on her and you don't switch in Gengar at the right time. And, of course the risk of other Heatran using yours for a Flash Fire boost, especially the defensive variants.

    I'd say bring in a bulky water type, who counters Heatran quite effectively, what you'd drop for it i'm not sure. RestTalk Suicune with Surf and Roar could help, stopping Heatran and serving as a Phazer as well (which your team lacks right now). Or you could use RestTalk CM Suicune with Surf, if phazing isn't your thing.
  3. masterful

    masterful

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    who would you suggest removing? I've faced quite a few heatran, and usually I can either protect or switch out to gengar to take the explosion
  4. bubbly

    bubbly

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    I think on one level your team is trying to be two things. Your SkarmBliss is a pretty standard stall combo (although I'm pretty sure Blissey doesn't need all that SpDef investment!), but both are running Toxic which if you're set on that, ideally the rest of your team should be able to abuse this Toxic damage.
    However, the rest of your pokemon aren't suited to this at all, although SubGar can make use of Toxic damage occasionally.

    Also, I think you would benefit from doing a threat list, working out what your problems are, and then changing some stuff, preferably one of your steels, to help out. At present a pretty large number of things can break this team.
  5. masterful

    masterful

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  6. Thorns

    Thorns

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    your blissey spread is stupid, max hp and def but keep calm if you want otherwise swampert is 2hkoing you with earthquake lol
  7. masterful

    masterful

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    then I switch to skarm and toxic

    Who should I switch out for a bulky water?
  8. Treadshot A1

    Treadshot A1

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    Why not Scizor? The way i see it, i think you can't decide on whether you want to be a Toxic Stall team, or a Bulky Offense team. Either way, though, what's Scizor doing, aside from possibly luring a Flash Fire boost for Heatran? Also, what if your opponent chooses to use a Ground move, which hits both Scizor and Heatran for SE damage. Yeah, i know, Skarmory, but then you're playing "Rock, Paper, Scizor", which is a very dangerous game.

    Scizor switches to Skarm, Ground move: You win.
    Scizor switches to Heatran, Ground move: Bye bye ScarfTran.
    Scizor switches to Skarm, Fire move: There goes your Skarmory...
    Scizor switches to Heatran, Fire move: Flash Fire, then your opponent goes to their bulky water to force out Heatran.

    Of the 4 possibilities, only the first one really is a 'win'. Even if you get the Flash Fire boost, a Bulky Water can stop Heatran in it's tracks, and you'd have to switch. And really, even if you get the first outcome, what next? Anyone can see that Skarmory switching out from a mile away, or inducing Status or Spikes. No matter what, a Steel type (opposing Heatran is the worst outcome for you) can come in to block Toxic, or catch your switch in for a nasty surprise, and a layer of Spikes isn't worth your Skarm's life.

    The way i see it, Scizor's not really helping you much, baiting for a team that can't take advantage of it. Replace it with a RestTalk CM Suicune for more offensive power.
  9. masterful

    masterful

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    that does make sense, but gengar also is immune to ground-type moves and can OHKO opposing Heatran
  10. Thorns

    Thorns

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    i said your blissey spread is stupid.

    cb scizor's u-turn does 109% - 128.3%. that's a guaranteed ohko.
    cb ttar's crunch does 127.3% - 150%. no-switch pursuit 2hkos. i hope you're seeing where i'm going with this
    life orb ledian's brick break does 58% - 68.3%. you are 2HKOD BY A MOTHERFUCKING LEDIAN CHANGE THE FUCKING EVS NOW
  11. Deinosaur

    Deinosaur GO GOOMY

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    I would definitely get rid of scizor for a bulky water type ASAP. I would reccomend
    Vaporeon@Leftovers
    (Bulky) 252 HP, 200 Def, 56 SpD
    Bold
    (Attacking) 252 HP, 252 SpA
    Modest
    Wish/Protect/Surf/Ice Beam
    This vappy can effectively remove opposing heatran and other fire types with ease. It is also able to pass wishes to other pokes.
    Sadly the team is missing a viable physical sweeper. I suppose you can use a mixed gyarados with good defenses and attack stat instead of vappy.

    Otherwise, solid team.
  12. Treadshot A1

    Treadshot A1

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    Two words: Glass Cannon. That's Gengar in a nutshell. Let's put Gengar into the possibilities in place of Skarm:

    Scizor switches to Gengar, Ground move: You win.
    Scizor switches to Heatran, Ground move: Bye bye ScarfTran.
    Scizor switches to Gengar, Fire move: There goes your Gengar...
    Scizor switches to Heatran, Fire move: Flash Fire, then your opponent goes to their bulky water to force out Heatran.

    It doesn't change things much, does it? Gengar is just as bad a switch in as Skarm is, if not worse since it'll practically die to any Flamethrower opposing Heatran throws at you.

    Just get rid of Zor, it's baiting stuff that you can't take. Use a bulky water, and forget about the Flash Fire boost, it does you no good anyways since a bulky water stops you.

    Either take BlisseyofDoom's Vaporeon, or use a RestTalk CM Suicune. Advantage of Vaporeon: It can heal others. Advatange of Suicune, it heals itself and sets up Calm Mind.
  13. masterful

    masterful

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    sorry, man. I just don't know about that
  14. Treadshot A1

    Treadshot A1

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    Huh? About what? I can understand that you don't want to lose Scizor, but...

    ...Look, there is one other option i can think of, but you're gonna hate this one even more than the first one: Get yourself RestTalk CM Suicune, and make it Specially Defensive, and i mean really specially defensive. Then, take out Blissey. With CM and Max SpDef EV's, it should wall a lot of things. Losing SkarmBliss probably isn't a good thing, though, hence why i originally suggested removing Scizor. But, if you go this route, Scizor baits Fire Attacks, which RestTalk CM Suicune laughs at.

    Yeah, neither option is particularly appealing. Maybe it best just to go with BlisseyofDoom's Vappy, though that still means bye bye Scizor.
  15. Deinosaur

    Deinosaur GO GOOMY

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    I don't quite agree with the Suicune replacing Blissey but I do think that Scizor has to go. Whether you use Vappy or Suicune, it's a matter of preference. And I suppose your Blissey can take an attack from Heatran but that's it. And even then, Bliss can't do too much back.
  16. SlottedPig

    SlottedPig

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    Whirlwind over Toxic on Skarmory; most of the things you smack with toxic you can just spike up on and whirlwind out. also bold > impish so less confusion damage.

    Change Blissey's EVs. Giving her 252 defense evs more than doubles her ability to take physical hits. Yeah she's a special wall but she has to take physical hits too. If you keep switching from skarm to bliss and so on, you're eventually going to be predicted and anything physical 2hkos bliss. 252 hp / 252 bold works, but if you want to retain a lot of special tankiness and get fancy 24 hp / 252 def / 232 spd (calm) gives you a lefties number and still some good special defense.
  17. masterful

    masterful

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    I didin't make the moves on skarmory right. It has whirlwind now, and I'm gonna replace -whimper- Scizor with a CM Suicune.

    It can Seismic Toss and Wish, and predict the explosion
  18. masterful

    masterful

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    any other suggestions?
  19. Treadshot A1

    Treadshot A1

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    Just to clarify, neither do i, but he seemed very reluctant to let go of Scizor, so i gave him the only other half decent option i could think of.

    Anyways, congrats on passing up Scizor, it wasn't an easy decision to make.

    Heh, i await the day someone lets their Blissey stay in on my Heatran and Seismis Toss, lol. That's not a good idea, ever. However, i do support ThePowerWithin's point about making Blissey able to tae some physical hits as well. People don't expect that fatass to be anything for than a Special wall, and you can surprise them with a physically useful Blissey. You can't keep changing to Skarm and back, people catch on quick and will kill your core when you switch.

    My only other thing to say is that make it a RestTalk CM Suicune. You lack a good setup sweeper, and it's a good idea to have someone who can reliably set up a few boosts.

    EDIT: Just saw you changed the OP. Nice Suicune. However, use X-Act's defense calculator, just search for it in Smogon's search function, to calculate a better EV spead. While i realize you don't think you'll need and special bulk since you will CM, it's always safer to spread out the EV's and Nature a bit more evenly, and then alter it either way after a few test battles.
  20. masterful

    masterful

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  21. masterful

    masterful

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    what should I do about the fact that I have no physical attackers?
  22. SSHG

    SSHG

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    That's going to give you a lot of problems because a blissey can stall your team out, I suggest you use a Gyarados instead of Heatran because you REALLY need a pokemon that attacks physically.
  23. masterful

    masterful

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    I'm kinda thinking now about replacing gengar with a DD Dragonite

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