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A Tale of Two Dooms - Voodoom Discussion

Discussion in 'Battle CAPacity' started by Destiny Warrior, May 16, 2011.

  1. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
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    Voodoom is the king of mixup. With two different formes that are as different as chalk from cheese, and work in different ways, Voodoom is an obvious contender for the role. Voodoom's two forms(henceforth referred to as Voodoom and SworDoom) help to give it a lot of flexibility to deal with the situation at hand. SworDoom excels at quick, light hits, building up chip damage, while Voodoom relies upon slower attacking with access to zoning options and a projectile to compensate. Voodoom's also a nice character for new players, because of its variety of options that open up different avenues of play.

    http://www.ivnbvn.com/batcap/voodoom.html

    Above link will go to Voodoom's character page when it gets one.

    In the moves section, I'll be listing Special Normals along with normal moves that pique my interest as well.

    Moves
    Voodoom
    j.A - "Needle Drop"

    This move is identical for Voodoom and SworDoom. The user clutches its needle, aiming it downwards, and based on spacing, user either drops for another hit, or does a crossup. Can be used for a (relatively) safe crossup, though against the likes of Cyclohm they will probably Tri Attack you first.

    j.C

    I don't mention this move for comboing ability. This can be used to push back opponents who meet you midair. Could be useful in a pinch I guess.

    5C
    If spaced right, hits twice.

    f.5C
    Quick knockdown if you need one.

    4C
    Another quick KD.

    6C
    Normal Voodoom's best anti-air. As a side note, it hits adjacent opponents on the ground as well, so if timed right you can get a quick hit + roll back to prepare yourself for their assault with a Dark Pulse, Vacuum Wave etc. or even a Night Slash if you're sure they aren't blocking.

    Dark Pulse
    Your "projectile", alongwith your zoning weapon for pushing opponents. This isn't as good as the other projectiles, due to it not going entirelya cross the screen, but it is still a decent zoning weapon. C-Pulse covers around half the screen, A-Pulse a little distance, B-Pulse somewhere in the middle. X-Pulse is basically C-Pulse but with potentially additional damage if your opponent is placed right.

    Vacuum Wave
    Your zoning weapon for reeling in opponents. You can use this to launch groundstrings if your opponents aren't alert and blocking. Distances for buttons are similar to Dark Pulse. X-Wave has less recovery compared to A-Wave(not sure on this part).

    Needle Arm
    A-Arm is a quick hit that pushes your opponent away, B-Arm is a punch that travels about same distance as B-Pulse, while C-Arm is a slower hit that knocks down.

    2C
    Just like all other 2Cs, is a KD. I mention it only to warn you that you should probably use one of Doom's other options to KD because Doom has noticeable recovery time from this.

    Night Slash
    Works on both Voodoom and SworDoom. This is the key to Voodoom's mixup game, alongside Grab. Night Slash has 3 versions which hit different distances across the screen. It KDs, meaning you can get ready to setup your offense. Night Slash switches Voodoom to SworDoom, and makes Voodoom a whole lot faster, greater comboability, and vast amounts of chip damage sources. The downside? Taking a hit without blocking(including grabs) automatically makes SworDoom revert forms, so you have to be careful when you defend. Even Whirlwind will make it revert forms. This means that if you slip up in your offense, you will be punished, and badly. You also have just 1 special, Night Slash.This does mean that you might not need Xs as much however! X-Slash is ggreat for comboing, and crosses you up.

    SworDoom
    SworDoom is all about using normals. It has Night Slash for covering distances across the screen, but for the most part, he will be relying upon constantly doing chip damage. Unlike Voodoom, I won't be listing his normals, ebcause pretty much *all* his normals have uses for comboing etc. They're all various sword slashes, with different angles and so on. Suffice to say, they're built to suit SworDoom's chip damage and hit-and-run styles. The only issue with SworDoom is that activating it can be difficult, due to a whiffed Night Slash being ripe for punishment.

    Please do post with comboes(because all of mine will obv. suck since I don't use comboes very much), and discuss the latest addition to BatCAP!
  2. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    5C is a pretty cool move, different properties depending on where the opponent is. Close-range its a punch that cancels into special attacks, most notably A/B/X-Pulse, which leads to the nice, simple combo:

    close 5C, A/B/X-Pulse, Pin Missile.

    Hard to pull off because close 5C is balls to hit with, but if you get it, tons of damage (assuming super meter) is abound.

    If you don't have Meter when landing close 5C, you can just combo into Dark Pulse, which leads into Night Slash, and free Night Slashes are great.

    Far 5C on the other hand, is nice and (comparatively) easy to use, and cancels into normals, and provides a different combo approach, the balance here is that you're not getting combos into Pin Missile from Far 5C, though :<

    So far the best combo I have off Far 5C is

    5C, 5A, 5B, B-Arm

    Pretty simple combos you can just throw into your game.

    In other news, j.A and A-Arm have some... odd properties. I've had j.A hit 5 times once, and A-Arm hit 4. I'll see if I can find a way to make these consistently happen.
  3. Cartoons!

    Cartoons! !!!
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    Max I've had j.A hit is 4, I believe, so, new record! As far as A-Arm is concerned, that's a new one on me! Good find.

    f.5C can indeed lead to Super, either by linking into 4C or into the Super directly. It doesn't lead to a lot of damage however and you're better off saving the super to punish careless jump ins as a standard bread and butter combo's damage is comparable.

    Going into this character, I had the idea of making something that's good at trapping opponents. A-Vacuum Wave, on wakeup where the last few active hit frames hit the opponent as soon as they are vulnerable is a nightmare and can lead to combos that knock down (or a throw) which just repeat the cycle. B or C-Pulse is actually also a good way to maintain pressure, because the opponent has to risk getting hit by the shattering heart if they want to escape, however sitting still leaves them open to having to deal with the excellent f.5C UltiMario describes.


    Thanks for setting up the thread DW. I'll post in here once I get the page up.
  4. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    Wow, how did I miss thinking of just trying to Cancel f.5C into Super >.<

    Also, is it intentional that j.B can cancel into c.5C? It's like possible, but it's so freaking frame perfect it almost seems unintentional. If it's not, maybe you should open a window on that in an update, because it's a rather useful combo, but the timing is so odd and strict that it's not really worth it because it's so easy to miss.

    Maybe I just like 5C too much lol

    Also, I've found that with B/C-Pulse, B-Arm can follow up just as well as f.5C, and if both hits land it packs more power, too. Those both and back throw are also all great timewasters, they keep your opponent off long enough to use A-Slash and pull out your sword.

    SworDoom is really freaking good by the way. j.B covers like god knows what of the screen, hell, I'm not even sure how high or low that hits, because it could look like it hits either with that kind of arc. Corner pressure mixups are freaking insane too, you have basically a 50/50 shot at correctly predicting your opponent and just looping them in the corner until they're KO'd, because you always have instant high and low options at all times... and I thought Rev's wake-up game was scary.

    Edit: I might as well ask, if the first hit of Dark Pulse hits (like, near Doom Hit), is the opponent like stuck and can't block until hit by the heart or not? I can't really tell :/
    Also, if you use Disable and get hit by the Sandbag, the game crashes. Yeah....
  5. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
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    Responding to this part because the rest is about comboing, adn will soon be added to the OP.

    The opponent should be stuck because they're in hitstun, meaning they can't attack.

    The game also crashes if Cyclohm uses Back Grab on Doom when Doom is soaking wet. They're all issues with Voodoom not having all the necessary graphics.

    I'm also thinking of a matchup chart for Voodoom that lists what form to sue against each character. Roughly, I think SworDoom would match up very well against everything except Kitsunoh, Arghonaut, and Krilowatt, where staying as Voodoom might be to your advantage.

    Thoughts?
  6. Cartoons!

    Cartoons! !!!
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  7. Venser

    Venser

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    I just downloaded Voodom yesterday, but is this correct?
  8. Cartoons!

    Cartoons! !!!
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    Thanks for catching that.
    Vacuum Wave should be dbf+a
    and Night Slash should be dfb+a

    The content has been fixed.
  9. Xaqwais

    Xaqwais

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    I find for the less combo apt people like myself, Doom is still a great choice. He is very solid for pushing your opponent into the corner while in Pin-in mode. You gotta make good used of B-Needle and j.c. Once in the corner, it's a good thing to set up as many A Pulses to force them to be on the defensive. You're 2c trip is great for hitting them quick, but you gotta be sure you'll land it. 4c is a great anti air that is a really easy set up to Pin Missile on most occasions. You generally won't be using meter with Doom any, it seems.
    With Pin out, you can play a style similar to Smash Bros. Brawl Marth. Use your j.b for hitting a massive hitbox, while using j.c for long range aerial coverage. 5c and 3c are amazing for footsies, rivalling Ohm's 5c for range. Once you get them into the corner with SworDoom, it's not too bad to keep them into the corner with your great jumping normals.

    But if you aren't the combo apt person like others, you better keep an X with you at all times. Voodoom dies in the face of pressure, and x-needle is your guardian angel.
  10. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    I'm not combo apt at all, and I love Voodoom. Most of my game relys on simple 2-hit combos through things like j.C, spacing with Dark Pulse, and punishing approaches with B-Arm. Also, tons of corner pressure. Voodoom and especially swordoom is SOOOOO good in the corner. How the hell are you supposed to beat SworDoom corner pressure? I don't think it's even possible unless the SworDoom player gets sloppy.

    Also Xaqwais I had no idea you played Smash lol. Yeah, I did notice how Marth's Fair, Nair, and Foward-B look a lot like SworDoom's j.b, j.a, and 2B respectively. Other than using j.b/Fair for approach and 2B/Forward-B for a quick combo, they don't really play the same, especially considering Marth's game relys on Grabs, which SworDoom has none of >.<

    Also X-Slash is like Voodoom's big risk move. You stick the hit and you're about to land tons of damage and do absolute rape, miss and you've wasted X and are about to get punished really badly. I love it and hate it all at once.
  11. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
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    Heh, I agree with you guys about not being very combo-apt. My style of play is to generally throw out a couple of Dark Pulses to set the trend, then when I throw out another, I use Night Slash for a relatively safer setup. If you space yourself right, you hit before the Pulse, so if they're blocking you get into Slash mode kind of safely, while if they aren't, you got into Slash mode.

    Once I get into Slash mode, I generally camp in any one place with a downback, and when it looks like they're closing in I use a 6C to pile on the pressure and start the chip game. I find this is one of the more conservative ways to play Doom.

    SworDoom is generally 100% vulnerable to grabs and sudden blocks, so you have to factor that in as well.
  12. CRASHiC

    CRASHiC

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    BREAKING NEWS!
    Voodoom is broken.

    I haven't had a human partner to test this with yet, but you can land a grab from full screen by throwing out a grab and having it's active frames match up with his shadow heart projectile.
  13. Xaqwais

    Xaqwais

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    Oh my, that is quite devastating. It doesn't seem to work when the opponent is blocking, thankfully. Let's see what toons thinks bout it, but it def needs to be considered with the rest of the eventual Doom nerfs.
  14. Cartoons!

    Cartoons! !!!
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    hmm...that's something to look into, thanks CRASHiC. Kitsunoh, Cyclohm, and Stratagem have all had similar issues in the past (and may now, shh!)

    I'm generally more hesitant to dish out nerfs than hand out buffs, and I'd like to avoid it unless a character is highly dominating.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E0RhUHR91Q
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRTjElpqE3E
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syC34kFp_hc
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-83rB2eh-o

    Here are some recent matches, and, yes, I know it's TGM playing Doom, but does anyone see the incredible advantages Doom has?

    I think this sums it up very well. Doing things like nerfing the damage or removing the chip doesn't really address the core here, in that once slash doom corners you, it's pretty much over. At least with Kitsunoh, our other corner rapist, if you guess right, you can escape. With Doom, blocking all the hits leaves you worse for wear, and you still don't have any way to prevent him from jumping in and repeating the cycle. In fact, your best bet for escaping is to let him combo you so that by the end of it, you're far enough (though floored) to put some space between the wall and you.

    Another, more subtle, issue I have is with Doom's swordless stance, in that he has a pretty much inescapable wake up trap with A-Vacuum Wave. If he does it meaty, you don't really have a reversal option and he'll put you into repeating knock/block/grab>suck loop, a miniature of the sword corner nightmare.

    Anyway, I'll give it more time before I do anything rash. Feel free to drop by the chat anytime for some matches. If you get some cool matches, send the replays to me and I'll be glad to upload them.
  15. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
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    Doom's pretty strong, but I won't comment on being overpowered because I'm not sure I'm a very good judge of that. He turns the batCAP "metagame" on its head(stuff like Arghonaut and Krilowatt which are normally in the lower tiers can stand up to him because of excellent mobility options, and Rev gets trolled HARD by SworDoom's excellent speed). Doom is the kind of fighter that advocates perfect play, except the perfect play is usually the most predictable play and hence no longer is the perfect play. The thing with Doom is to sap away its X, then start applying pressure to it.

    Loads of pressure.

    WIthout the handy reversal, a lot of the characters can abuse the minutest crack in SworDoom's defense, and start comboing into it really hard. THe problem is to find that crack, which is so difficult Doom potentially crosses the line between "top tier" and "broken".
  16. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    IMO, this is how Voodoom works.

    He's completely reliant on pressure, all matches are just "who can apply pressure harder" when Voodoom is in play. He is just absolutely amazing with his Pin out at applying pressure, but normal Doom can do this just fine too.

    Basically what you want to happen, at least with any character that can play like this efficiently (like Argonaut, for example) is just to go wild and never stop. Don't let Doom have his own space. He can't apply pressure if he has no space. His most crucial asset is to get out his pin, and he needs space for that. You don't let him have room for flexibility, and you can win. This is something you weren't doing in your arg matches, Cartoons, and really should try next time.

    If doom gets his space, he plays his own game. Without his space, without that flex room, doom begins to crumble.

    Doom is easily the best pressure character in the entire game, bar none. However, he falls for the same reason that he's so powerful. Applying counter-pressure is the key to success against Voodoom. There are characters like Arg, Skull, and more cautious approach, Roak that can do this. There are others like Rev that can only pray once the pin is out.

    While mainly thanks to pin, Doom is easily one of the better characters in the game, but by all means, the hardest issue people are having with Doom is probably just playing the match-up. Nobody has ever had to deal with this kind of pressure in BatCap, so now we must invent ways to get around it. Once that's smoothed out, Doom won't seem AS bad as he is right now.
  17. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
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    UltiMario hit the nail on the head.

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